170 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

slimgrin wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I agree the writers could expand the moral dilemmas in Mass Effect to make Shepard's reputation seem harder to classify. But I agree with those saying Shepard is most definitely not a sue, even if I were forced to take the definition seriously. The game is all about choosing sides, pleasing one group, pissing off another...

And if you play Paragon you never do this.

Did you save the council or not? Did you choose Udina or Anderson?

Saving the Council is a P/R decision, Udina/Anderson is not.

The Council decision is one of the best examples of the imbalance in the system to date. Shepard putting Human lives over the Council wins the approval of... TIM, really, and gets the hate of everyone else who has an opinion. Wheras Shepard saving the Council gets the approval of... TIM again, everyone else who has an opinion, and no negative feedback from any human in or outside of the Alliance, military or civilian.

It's definitely a 'Sue' moment for a Paragon Shepard when everyone loves what you did and it had no negative reprecussions.

[RyuujinZERO]

A key point AGAINST Shepard being a Gary Sue is the inherent cost or side effect of many of the situations.

- No matter what you do in Arrival, you can't save the 300,000 Batarians

- No matter what happens on Virmire, someone has to be left behind

- In a couple of missions (Zaeed's loyalty, bring down the sky), saving the hostages, and dealling with the aggressors are mutually exclusive

- The Council's never going to take you seriously no matter what you say


...and so on. The key point is that a true "Mary Sue" character usually does not make compromises, they do not have flaws. They'll save the hostages and bring the evil-doer to justice, they'll convince the council to prepare for the reapers, save all their friends on Virmire - any exception to this, will usually have a reason directly tied TO the Mary Sue; it's not really because the character was powerless to stop it occuring, but it was to the characters benefit that this "bad" thing be allowed to happen (See trope example "Die for our ship")

In many of Sheps cases, bad things are unavoidable and the best case scenario is merely damage control

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 22 octobre 2011 - 04:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Besides how exaggerated those complaints about Garrus (from the person... three posts now?) are, and how far they are from 'hardcore', I do agree that Garrus is not a Sue. Less because of his token flaw of 'impatience to do good', and more because Garrus has never been established as an uber-successful/popular person in the game.

He's a member of Shepard's team of badass punks, but he's far from the 'WIN' device Sues tend to be. His failures (to catch Saren, to lead a team, to control his own temper) are far more important to his character then his heroic aura of awesome.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 octobre 2011 - 04:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

RyuujinZERO wrote...

A key point AGAINST Shepard being a Gary Sue is the inherent cost or side effect of many of the situations.

- No matter what you do in Arrival, you can't save the 300,000 Batarians

- No matter what happens on Virmire, someone has to be left behind

- In a couple of missions (Zaeed's loyalty, bring down the sky), saving the hostages, and dealling with the aggressors are mutually exclusive

- The Council's never going to take you seriously no matter what you say


...and so on. The key point is that a true "Mary Sue" character usually does not make compromises, they do not have flaws. They'll save the hostages and bring the evil-doer to justice, they'll convince the council to prepare for the reapers, save all their friends on Virmire - any exception to this, will usually have a reason directly tied TO the Mary Sue; it's not really because the character was powerless to stop it occuring, but it was to the characters benefit that this "bad" thing be allowed to happen (See trope example "Die for our ship")

In many of Sheps cases, bad things are unavoidable and the best case scenario is merely damage control

Actually, token-flaws like those are quite common for Sues. Especially 'unwinnable situations that are totally not their fault, but they are always justified in their decision to any reasonable person.' Likewise the nature about how those who do disagree with them/dislike them are completely unreasonable about it: the token (laughable) dissenters to the Sue allure.

Mary Sues aren't about punishing the wicked by default, or by definition: postponing justice (or simply forgiving and redeeming the villains) is quite common.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 octobre 2011 - 04:22 .

[lovgreno]

Shepard is total Mary Sue. And his/her ship is filled with them too. Heck, even the ship itself is a Mary Sue now! Asari and humans are Mary Sue races and frankly the other races are quite Sueish as well.

But I like them anyway. In space opera you can get away with a lot of sueism if you are a good writer wich I think the BioWare writers are.

[Sebby]

Saphra Deden wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I agree the writers could expand the moral dilemmas in Mass Effect to make Shepard's reputation seem harder to classify. But I agree with those saying Shepard is most definitely not a sue, even if I were forced to take the definition seriously. The game is all about choosing sides, pleasing one group, pissing off another...

And if you play Paragon you never do this.

Indeed, no negative repercussions for undermining the Council's position with the genophage data or making the Alliance militarily weaker for saving the Destiny Ascension and no antagonizing of the Krogan for bringing back the Rachni or the Quarians for empowering the Geth with the rewrite. It's all smooth sailing for Paragon.

Modifié par Seboist, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The sad thing is that Bioware probably will interject a lot of Paragon consequences... in ME3, where it will not look like such over-reaction as to be a flaw in and of itself. The lack of presence or even foreshadowing of such in ME2 will undermine any unintended consequences later on.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 22 octobre 2011 - 04:45 .

[Sebby]

Bioware really dropped the ball with the Rachni vs Krogan issue. It's lame to see Wrex throwing a huge fit over the Queen being released in ME1 and vowing that his brethren will "set things right again" only to see absolutely nothing come from it in 2(not even a mention).

It should have received the same amount of attention as the Geth vs Quarian conflict.

[shepskisaac]

Fiddles_stix wrote...

BioWare does just enough differently that they can avoid the "sue" and "stu" labels. The characters are all flawed enough and have sufficient paths that they don't need to be marginalised. Although there is potential to view Liara and FemShep as "sue"s.

Liara ain't a Sue. She stole Shepard's money so she's not holy enough to be a Sue.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 23 octobre 2011 - 01:44 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

There are no Mary Sues in the ME video games.

Can't comment on the books or comics, as I avoid "secondary media" like the plague.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:00 .

[Funkcase]

SandTrout wrote...

Simply not being a believable character =/= Gary Stu.

He went on a sadistic, homicidal crusade after they killed his wife, and is unable to adapt to life outside of assassin contracts or raise his son properly. He is not any sane person's 'ideal'.

Edit: Also, because of those failings, his son attempts to become a hit-man in his own right, which Thane and Shepard must then prevent.

You know alot of people who were in the military find it hard to adjust to civilian life after they retire from the military, alof ot these people become mercs (I know some who have done this) So it's not out of the ordinary apart from him being an assassin instead of a soldier. I agree that i dont understand why he didn't want to raise his son though, I guess he did it to prevent his son from following in his foot steps that ironically backfires.

Modifié par Funkcase, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:26 .

[King Minos]

What's a Mary sue?

[CroGamer002]

ME1 Liara.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Mesina2 wrote...

ME1 Liara.

I linked to an article on the actual meaning of Mary Sue a few posts up. 

Liara?  Hardly.

[DaringMoosejaw]

King Minos wrote...

What's a Mary sue?

Someone you don't like.

[King Minos]

Ah so that's what a Mary Sue is, paragon Shepard no doubt for Me 1 and Me 2.

[Killjoy Cutter]

MARY SUE

What does it NOT mean? 

"Character I don't like." 
"Female character who does things that male characters get away with doing without comment."
"Character who is too powerful for my taste."
"Character whose flaws don't overwhelm all other aspects of the character."

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:01 .

[King Minos]

I read your post the first time, actually can you post that link again in big letters along with different colours? Oh and spice it up a little by giving each letter a different font?

[Killjoy Cutter]

King Minos wrote...

I read your post the first time, actually can you post that link again in big letters along with different colours? Oh and spice it up a little by giving each letter a different font?

If you'd like, but it wasn't directed at you.  It was directed at the entire thread.  Get sick of people who use "Mary Sue" as a quick and easy dismissal of any character they don't like. 

[Han Shot First]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

King Minos wrote...

I read your post the first time, actually can you post that link again in big letters along with different colours? Oh and spice it up a little by giving each letter a different font?

If you'd like, but it wasn't directed at you.  It was directed at the entire thread.  [b]Get sick of people who use "Mary Sue" as a quick and easy dismissal of any character they don't like. [b]

That covers 99.9% of the posts in this thread.

Most people accusing characters of being Mary Sues, don't actually know what a Mary Sue is.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 24 octobre 2011 - 12:37 .