103 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

Zjarcal wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Trash mobs having thousands of hit points whereas the heroes have 180 is rather immersion breaking. If your cone of cold catches Varric and 3 bad guys, you'll one-shot Varric yet only take about 10% of the mobs health.

... is something I agree with. The inflation of numbers for enemy hit points was not a good move imo.

About one shotting mooks, I saw that almost equally on both games.

I'm working with a certain lovely lady on a mod that will rebalance this particular issue on a systemwide level. If you're interested, we're probably going to see about some playtesting soon.

Edit: As for the combat in general, I much prefer the pace of the combat in DA2 to DAO. I like how the fights aren't front-loaded in difficulty anymore, I like the new exaggerated animations, and I really like the cross-class combo system. I think most of the complaints about "gamepad" gameplay stems from the lack of autoattack on the consoles early on, requiring a button press for each basic attack. That's not been the case for a good long while though, so that particular problem is no longer valid.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 24 octobre 2011 - 09:34 .

[ReallyRue]

I find it more fun in DA2, less clunky, but I did like the tactics aspect of DAO.

[Brockololly]

I prefer DAO over DA2, but thats not to say some of the changes for DA2 don't have merit.

I think the faster pace makes managing your party more cumbersome, especially when you're fighting the camera half of the time. Its got many of the same problems as Origins, except the animations are just back loaded now so while you can fire something off immediately, you're stuck waving your hands around while the enemy is hacking away at you.

I still find character shuffling into position at times and there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to when somebody will jump in immediately to a closing attack as opposed to slowly walk over.

And visually, I think combat looks like a joke more often than not. Its so exaggerated that I can't take any of it seriously- between the flame jets zipping out of your ass when you charge someone or the mages doing staff aerobics over and over and over again when autoattacking. I'm not saying Origins was great either, but DA2 combat just lacks any sense of gravitas or "oomph"- it all feels terribly disconnected more often than not looks unresponsive, what with the exploding gore bags and having your rogue slash away at a massive health bar for 10 minutes while the enemy just stands there slashing back.

Its just an odd mish mash where its not responsive enough to play as an action game and its lacking tactical functionality to play as a more traditional party based strategic RPG.

[adneate]

I would say the DA2 combat lacks any weight, drama or visual interest compared to Origins, the encounter design is a joke with all fights being built exactly the same and most outright refusing to be solved in more than one way. Weapon impacts are both silly and over the top yet lack any of the qualities a real sword or dagger would have, since they cut all deathblow animations out and just had enemies disintegrate upon lethal impact. Also fighting the camera and the auto-targeting system in DA2 makes trying to play it like Origins a frustrating and annoying experience since you can't target your abilities and AOE spells with any reliable accuracy.

I would compare the combat to the Baysformers movies it's pointless, visually exhausting and utterly juvenile taking one concept and dragging it out to the point that it becomes self indulgent and stupid.

[bleetman]

I... mostly prefer DA2 combat, to be honest. Which is to say that I'm capable of extracting some kind of enjoyment out of it, whereas Origins combat I found to be universally annoying. I don't much miss that bizarre melee shuffle-dance, or trundling after archers and the like as they run away at the same speed and being incapable of intercepting them until they decide to stop. And, most of all, I like that actually using abilities as a rogue no longer generally equates to an overall damage loss due to my weapon runes only working on auto attacks.

And hey, not that wading through most of what Origins had to offer by slapping down a Storm of the Century and waiting for everything to wander in and die wasn't fun, but... Yeeeeah.

Which isn't to say DA2's combat is perfect, of course. But most of what annoyed me about it has been exorcised from Legacy onwards.

Modifié par bleetman, 24 octobre 2011 - 10:17 .

[Morroian]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I'm working with a certain lovely lady on a mod that will rebalance this particular issue on a systemwide level. If you're interested, we're probably going to see about some playtesting soon.

Sounds interesting, I presume there will be other changes to balance out the reduction in hit points.

[Melca36]

There were aspects of DA:2's combat I liked and areas where I HATED it.

Rogues need to be slowed down and be less over the top. And return dirty fighting.

Combat improved with the two DLCs so keep moving forward like that and people shouldnt complain.

[Cutlasskiwi]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Edit: As for the combat in general, I much prefer the pace of the combat in DA2 to DAO. I like how the fights aren't front-loaded in difficulty anymore, I like the new exaggerated animations, and I really like the cross-class combo system. I think most of the complaints about "gamepad" gameplay stems from the lack of autoattack on the consoles early on, requiring a button press for each basic attack. That's not been the case for a good long while though, so that particular problem is no longer valid.

^This.

Love the cross-class combos, one of my favorite things with the combat in DA2 and I like the pace much better. I also found the mage class really fun this time around compared to DAO.  

[Xewaka]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I'm working with a certain lovely lady on a mod that will rebalance this particular issue on a systemwide level. If you're interested, we're probably going to see about some playtesting soon.
Edit: As for the combat in general, I much prefer the pace of the combat in DA2 to DAO. I like how the fights aren't front-loaded in difficulty anymore, I like the new exaggerated animations, and I really like the cross-class combo system. I think most of the complaints about "gamepad" gameplay stems from the lack of autoattack on the consoles early on, requiring a button press for each basic attack. That's not been the case for a good long while though, so that particular problem is no longer valid.

It was replaced by an uncooperative and clunky camera for PC, which completely ruins any attempt at controlling more than one character and the battlefield at once.

[hoorayforicecream]

Morroian wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I'm working with a certain lovely lady on a mod that will rebalance this particular issue on a systemwide level. If you're interested, we're probably going to see about some playtesting soon.

Sounds interesting, I presume there will be other changes to balance out the reduction in hit points.

Going the other way, actually. The character will have HP similar to the monsters, and the monster damage is being scaled up to match.

[jwalker]

My problem with DA2 combat I believe is a combination of its speed and my suckiness at targeting.

I have to pause a lot to actually click on the target, otherwise I wind up really really close to an enemy instead of attacking it xD

This is not that bad when playing a rogue or warrior, but with a mage can be a bit annoying.

[TEWR]

I enjoy DAII's combat over DAO's, but it is not without its flaws.

http://social.biowar...83/blog/209894/

It's not a perfect analysis and far from complete, but it's so far what I've come up with. It deals with the animations on both sides, tactics of enemies, and the use of waves.

But again, I admit that what I wrote isn't everything and isn't really a great analysis. There's a lot about combat's inner workings that I didn't talk about in there.

Joy Divison wrote...

Trash mobs having thousands of hit points whereas the heroes have 180 is rather immersion breaking. If your cone of cold catches Varric and 3 bad guys, you'll one-shot Varric yet only take about 10% of the mobs health.

I agree with this. But I like how the enemies have more health, as it makes the combat feel better than me just taking down enemies with 3-5 hits with no effort like I did in Origins. Not that DAII had much effort required for the mooks present.

Question: Would a solution where the player can have health like in -- and I expect I'll receive flak for this -- the Final Fantasy games work? Like where you could still upgrade your stats however you wish, but instead of it being a couple hundred points of health at most it's more than that? Say a couple thousand?

That way, you can't one-shot Varric anymore.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 octobre 2011 - 11:11 .

[Nerevar-as]

Playing on NM, characters move faster (party, enemies are slow mo, really stupid looking), but combat takes longer and got tedious.

I´d also like everybody playing by the same set of rules. PCs are made of glass but hit like cannons, most enemies have hundreds to thousands HP and hit in for 1/100th of that. It also makes the confusinf skills half worthless, while you are not under attack, they barely hurt each other.

[Joy Divison]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Trash mobs having thousands of hit points whereas the heroes have 180 is rather immersion breaking. If your cone of cold catches Varric and 3 bad guys, you'll one-shot Varric yet only take about 10% of the mobs health.

I agree with this. But I like how the enemies have more health, as it makes the combat feel better than me just taking down enemies with 3-5 hits with no effort like I did in Origins. Not that DAII had much effort required for the mooks present.

Question: Would a solution where the player can have health like in -- and I expect I'll receive flak for this -- the Final Fantasy games work? Like where you could still upgrade your stats however you wish, but instead of it being a couple hundred points of health at most it's more than that?

That way, you can't one-shot Varric anymore.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel.  For 30 years the PCs and bad guys each automatically received hit points per level and had roughly the same amount excepting special enemies or high level creatures which needed extra HPs to withstand advanced PC abilities.  This concept, while not perfect, had worked reasonably well enough that resources should have been devoted elsewhere to give us a more finished and polished product.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 24 octobre 2011 - 11:12 .

[Joy Divison]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Trash mobs having thousands of hit points whereas the heroes have 180 is rather immersion breaking. If your cone of cold catches Varric and 3 bad guys, you'll one-shot Varric yet only take about 10% of the mobs health.

... is something I agree with. The inflation of numbers for enemy hit points was not a good move imo.

About one shotting mooks, I saw that almost equally on both games.

I'm working with a certain lovely lady on a mod that will rebalance this particular issue on a systemwide level. If you're interested, we're probably going to see about some playtesting soon.

This sounds like an interesting project.  An ton of work to re-balance a fundamental mechanic the designers put into the game, but something I'd definitely be interested in.

[TEWR]

Joy Divison wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Trash mobs having thousands of hit points whereas the heroes have 180 is rather immersion breaking. If your cone of cold catches Varric and 3 bad guys, you'll one-shot Varric yet only take about 10% of the mobs health.

I agree with this. But I like how the enemies have more health, as it makes the combat feel better than me just taking down enemies with 3-5 hits with no effort like I did in Origins. Not that DAII had much effort required for the mooks present.

Question: Would a solution where the player can have health like in -- and I expect I'll receive flak for this -- the Final Fantasy games work? Like where you could still upgrade your stats however you wish, but instead of it being a couple hundred points of health at most it's more than that?

That way, you can't one-shot Varric anymore.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel.  For 30 years the PCs and bad guys each automatically received hit points per level and had roughly the same amount excepting special enemies or high level creatures which needed extra HPs to withstand advanced PC abilities.  This concept, while not perfect, had worked reasonably well enough that resources should have been devoted elsewhere to give us a more finished and polished product.

That's what I was originally thinking, but I figured people on here wouldn't like having health and stamina/mana customization removed from their control when leveling up.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 octobre 2011 - 11:18 .

[AreleX]

da2 combat is worlds above origins combat, and i hope bioware realizes this moving forward

[Joy Divison]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Trash mobs having thousands of hit points whereas the heroes have 180 is rather immersion breaking. If your cone of cold catches Varric and 3 bad guys, you'll one-shot Varric yet only take about 10% of the mobs health.

I agree with this. But I like how the enemies have more health, as it makes the combat feel better than me just taking down enemies with 3-5 hits with no effort like I did in Origins. Not that DAII had much effort required for the mooks present.

Question: Would a solution where the player can have health like in -- and I expect I'll receive flak for this -- the Final Fantasy games work? Like where you could still upgrade your stats however you wish, but instead of it being a couple hundred points of health at most it's more than that?

That way, you can't one-shot Varric anymore.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel.  For 30 years the PCs and bad guys each automatically received hit points per level and had roughly the same amount excepting special enemies or high level creatures which needed extra HPs to withstand advanced PC abilities.  This concept, while not perfect, had worked reasonably well enough that resources should have been devoted elsewhere to give us a more finished and polished product.

That's what I was originally thinking, but I figured people on here wouldn't like having health and stamina/mana customization removed from their control when leveling up.

The system should definitely still allow people to gain bonus HPs and mana by investing in Con and WP.  That part of DA2 is done right.

[Morroian]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Morroian wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I'm working with a certain lovely lady on a mod that will rebalance this particular issue on a systemwide level. If you're interested, we're probably going to see about some playtesting soon.

Sounds interesting, I presume there will be other changes to balance out the reduction in hit points.

Going the other way, actually. The character will have HP similar to the monsters, and the monster damage is being scaled up to match.

Sounds good. 

[Heather Cline]

The monsters having insane amount of hit points was one of the flaws with the new combat system. However the quicker combat was a better choice since the DA:O combat system was clunky especially on the 360 consoles.

I do prefer the DA2 combat system. I don't like the waves of enemies that they did like you kill a bunch of them and then bam another bunch either rise up from the ground or drop from above.

So yeah give either the party members more hit points to match the monsters or scale down the monsters hit points so that battle seems more even.

[Shazzie]

I'm a PC player. I prefer DA:O's combat. That's NOT to say that I think it's the bestest combat ever, yeah yeah yeah woo, but just that I really dislike DA2's combat.

It's too fast. It's too spastic. It's too over the top. I find the speed and animations to be ridiculous, and then of course there's the exploding blood bag enemies. I never feel like I'm in a pitched battle, no matter my difficulty setting or how many waves they throw at me. It just makes me want to dial the difficulty down and go AFK to do something more interesting while my crew decorates the environs with enemy blood.  Combat in DA2 is flat-out boring to me, with a hefty side of annoying. I guess they were trying to make it more exciting, but for me it was anything but.

In DA:O I felt a part of the fights. I planned strategies, and even if I was maneuvering my rogue shuffle-shuffle-shuffle to get off appropriate backstabs, I felt invested in the fight. DA2's fights 'get in my way' and I want to 'get them over with as fast as possible'.

Other niggling details I disliked from DA:O to DA2:
I miss the tactical camera.
I miss how ....solid (I guess is the appropriate term) combat felt to me in DA:O.
I dislike the inflated boss hitpoints in DA2 over DA:O. When a minor boss has enough hit points to take a bazooka to the face and shrug it off with a laugh, there's a problem. When I can one-hit my party members with friendly fire and hardly scrape the enemy lifebars with the exact same blast, there's a problem.


Again... if it sounds like I'm holding up DA:O's combat as some kind of holy grail, I'm not. It was FAR from perfect. And as much as I complain about DA2's combat, I do like some of their ideas. I just think they took things a bit too far.

I'm hoping they can bring back some of the... again, I lack any appropriate term but 'solidity' that DA:O's combat had for me, but crank it up with a hefty chunk of the speed given to DA2. Tone down the animations from DA2 some, and add in some of the heftier DA:O ones. (A 2H sword should, in my opinion, have at least a few 'hefty' looking moves. It's a 2H sword, it's as tall as its wielder! It's HEAVY! And shields! Give us a good solid THUNK now and then!) And incorporate DA2's skill trees, but bring back some non-combat skills from DA:O. I think there really could be a happy medium in there, incorporating both game's styles, and that's coming from someone who really hates DA2's combat, heh.

[TEWR]

Shazzie wrote...

It's too fast. It's too spastic. It's too over the top.

I don't think it was as over the top as people made it out to be. I did an in depth look at a good portion of the abilities/spells in my blog and went over which ones were realistic and which ones weren't, and to be honest the amount of unrealistic abilities/spells were about the same as Origins.

I find the speed and animations to be ridiculous, and then of course there's the exploding blood bag enemies.

I found it to be realistic. A longsword weighs between 2.5-4.0 lbs typically. A greatsword weighs 5-8 lbs. Mage staves probably don't weigh that much, and when a person wears armor they'll grow used to the weight of the armor and it will be easier to move.

It's the same concept as weight lifting. Eventually, the weight of something won't matter because you'll be able to lift it with ease.

Combat isn't slow like Origins. It's fast, hard, and brutal. 

Also, the exploding enemies was patched to only happen in very rare scenarios where it now makes more sense (Crushing prison, Archer's Lance or Mighty Blow on a frozen enemy, etc.).

But I do want to see my idea for class Specific Executions:

Rogue: Grabs the enemy, uses them as a shield, and slits their throat
Archer: Fires an automatic critical hit at the eye of the enemy, which you can see protruding
S&S: Dismemberment of a limb or decapitation. Maybe another one where you slam the shield into their heads?
Mage: Dependant on the element of the staff: Immolation, Electrocution, Poison, Freezing, GoW3 Hades style soul steal (for spirit staves)
2H: Improve a few of the Origins animations. One that comes to mind is Sten's where he turns around and stabs the enemy through the stomach with Asala.


I shamelessly plug my ideas out of love. And shame.

I never feel like I'm in a pitched battle, no matter my difficulty setting or how many waves they throw at me. It just makes me want to dial the difficulty down and go AFK to do something more interesting while my crew decorates the environs with enemy blood.  Combat in DA2 is flat-out boring to me, with a hefty side of annoying. I guess they were trying to make it more exciting, but for me it was anything but.

I agree that combat was one-sided, but this isn't because of DAII's animations. Rather, it's due in large part to the enemies exhibiting no tactics and due to them not having the same animations as us.

Even in Legacy the Carta Dwarf Boss Rhatigan rarely actually attacks me, and that's a big problem. I don't know if anyone else experienced that. But the Harlequinns attacked constantly, which was great.

What I want is for the lower level enemies to use some of the abilities/spells that we use depending on their class and for the lower level enemies to have a portion of the basic animations or all of them.

But in order for this to happen, what was talked about above between Joy Division and myself (and between hoorayforicecream and other people) where the PC and the companions have their health automatically increase upon level up happens. But the player could still give themselves boosts to constitution or willpower if they wished to.

Hope I made sense with my response.

I dislike the inflated boss hitpoints in DA2 over DA:O. When a minor boss has enough hit points to take a bazooka to the face and shrug it off with a laugh, there's a problem. When I can one-hit my party members with friendly fire and hardly scrape the enemy lifebars with the exact same blast, there's a problem.

Like I said above, a few posters -- myself among them -- are advocating that the PC and companions have health more akin to the enemies. If the enemies are going to have a lot of health -- which I happen to like -- then the party should too.

I'm hoping they can bring back some of the... again, I lack any appropriate term but 'solidity' that DA:O's combat had for me, but crank it up with a hefty chunk of the speed given to DA2. Tone down the animations from DA2 some, and add in some of the heftier DA:O ones. (A 2H sword should, in my opinion, have at least a few 'hefty' looking moves. It's a 2H sword, it's as tall as its wielder! It's HEAVY! And shields! Give us a good solid THUNK now and then!) And incorporate DA2's skill trees, but bring back some non-combat skills from DA:O. I think there really could be a happy medium in there, incorporating both game's styles, and that's coming from someone who really hates DA2's combat, heh.

I liked Shield Bash and it not only sounded like it hurt a person, but it also looked like it hurt a person.

And as I said above, greatswords do not weigh that much. Despite the look DA gives them to appearing like they do, they don't.

[blaidfiste]

DA2's DLC combat is ideal for me. More fights like the second to last battle in Legacy and less Sir Varnell.

[eroeru]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Whilst I mostly agree with the ones you quoted, you did make a very interesting point about Origins not being realistic in combat, contrary to many claims.

It actually got me to change my view on the argument that DA2 had worse combat because of the lack of realism - but the only thing that's a little lost to me (and to everyone else) is a more complete explanation about the disappointment. DA2 still felt awful. 

Now, why is that? Probably because faster-paced combat doesn't give so much diversity in the most detailed tactics. It's actually not so much detailed any more, because speed makes not every one attack count (like it was in origins) but rather has you thinking about positioning and such. And the postitioning-type tactics is also simple and rudimentary in DA2. But the lack of importance in planning every single attack and move really made the Pause function almost obsolete and non-existent - now it's only important for any changes in rather eminent and simply understandable positioning, which is far less intricate than the system in Origins.

So I'm really quite baffled that most seem to (at least in first idea) think Origins' combat was too slow and clunky. Maybe there really were some details off with the controls, but the slow reaction of let's say casting, did make the play more interesting for me. This way I had one more variable to count with - the calculation of whether I want to finish the casting, move away or choose a faster spell(reaction).

EDIT: I play on PC and combat has worsened from DA:O

Modifié par eroeru, 25 octobre 2011 - 04:17 .