103 réponses à ce sujet

[eroeru]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And as I said above, greatswords do not weigh that much. Despite the look DA gives them to appearing like they do, they don't.

And as they said, real greatswords do not have such appearance, not because people don't want that but rather because they'd be too heavy (or with any other quality that makes a out-there fantasy sword unrealistic).

Modifié par eroeru, 25 octobre 2011 - 02:09 .

[Zanallen]

eroeru wrote...

And as they said, real greatswords do not have such appearance, not because people don't want that but rather because they'd be too heavy (or any other thing that makes a out-there fantasy sword unrealistic).

And the reason greatswords in game are exaggerated is because:

1. They use the same combat animations as the axes and mauls. Hilts are extended to accomidate all weapons.

2. Width is exaggerated to all more variations in design. If all the blades were only four inches or so wide, they would all look pretty much the same and then we would have complaints of lack of variety.

Also, the greatswords in DA2 are the same size as those in DAO. Just in case someone wants to argue that point.

[MerinTB]

PC Gamer.

DA:O over DA2 by several thousand miles.

[AntiChri5]

DA 2's combat can get tedious at times.

Origins combat is always tedious.

Console player, if you really insist on dividing people on something so trivial.

[Yrkoon]

I wouldn't call combat in a combat-intensive RPG trivial, at all. Aside from the plot, it just may be the most important element in the game.

Edit:  interesting poll results.  So far things are shaping up exactly as most people here suspected.    Majority of Console gamers  prefer  the combat  changes in DA2, while the majority of  PC gamers don't. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 octobre 2011 - 03:43 .

[eroeru]

To get more specific info about the polarization and whatnot, I've created a supplementary poll.

OP! Please add this to the opening post...

http://social.biowar...14/polls/26088/

Modifié par eroeru, 25 octobre 2011 - 04:02 .

[Atakuma]

There was nothing inherently wrong with the combat in DA2. The real problems were the encounter design, AI and the majority of enemies who had either zero or limited abilities besides attack.

[Xewaka]

Yrkoon wrote...
Edit:  interesting poll results.  So far things are shaping up exactly as most people here suspected.    Majority of Console gamers  prefer  the combat  changes in DA2, while the majority of  PC gamers don't. 

Considering combat control was worse in DA 2 compared to DA:O in PC (mostly due to the player having to play against the camera, instead of with it) while the console controls were improved (go to command, etc), it was a foregone conclusion.

[MerinTB]

Xewaka wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
Edit:  interesting poll results.  So far things are shaping up exactly as most people here suspected.    Majority of Console gamers  prefer  the combat  changes in DA2, while the majority of  PC gamers don't. 

Considering combat control was worse in DA 2 compared to DA:O in PC (mostly due to the player having to play against the camera, instead of with it) while the console controls were improved (go to command, etc), it was a foregone conclusion.

Pretty much, yep.

[TEWR]

I have to point out that it's hard for me to give an accurate summation on how I feel about the combat.

I love the new animations the party uses, but I hate how the combat isn't tactical. That's not to say I found DAO's combat to be tactical. I didn't. But it wasn't nearly as bad as DAII's.

A lot of work needs to be done, so I think the poll isn't quite fair. I think there should've been an answer like "I prefer the new style of combat the players use, but the enemies need to also use said style and actual tactics need to return."

Because I think if one answers "I prefer DAII's combat", people may get the wrong idea and think "Oh he/she just loves killing endless hordes of mook enemies with no thought at all!"

[AntiChri5]

You will never be able to stop people from making erroneous assumptions about those with differing viewpoints.

[MerinTB]

AntiChri5 wrote...
You will never be able to stop people from making erroneous assumptions about those with differing viewpoints.

Who doesn't love fighting straw men?

[AntiChri5]

People with little time.

And those with a debilitating fear of straw, i presume.

[TEWR]

AntiChri5 wrote...

People with little time.

And those with a debilitating fear of straw, i presume.

Have you seen straw lately? It's getting very violent, and I am not going to get in the way of the straw.

[aries1001]

I prefer DA2's combat over DA:O's - and here's why.

The combat in DA2 is much faster as in DA:O. NPCs and Hawke actuallyu does what I tell them to do, be it swinging a sword, shooting a crossbow or casting a spell. Very nice

As for the tactical camera, there is one - of sort. If you hold the RMB (or LMB?) button down, you can move the mouse up and down and use the scroll on the mouse as well. You can also move the mouse from side to side. This will give you a sort of a tactical camera - not as high up as the (semi) isometric mode camera in DA:O, but is is OK because if you do use this as described you can see what is going on at the battefield. However, I've (always) found that the isometric camera in DA:O was -ahem- broken.

There were (are) indeed some problems in DA2's combat, one them being the 3 phase combat. Another being that the reinceforments were (are) not implemented very well. All of this (and more), Bioware set out to rectify (make better) in the DLCs, Legacy and Mark of the Assasin. And from what I've read about the recption on these forums, Bioware seems to have succeeded in doing this....

[Aaleel]

I'm on PC, and it's Origins by far.

1) Comabt was too fast in DA2, they need to find a speed in-between the two games.

2) Animations were way over the top, rogues flipping and rolling all over the ground for no purpose.  The evade flip is fine, because it serves a purpose, but the rest was just wild animations for the sake of wild animations.  Rogues teleporting.  I know Bioware said they don't.  But when you use Vendetta and bypass your frontline, the enemies from line and instatly appear by a mage anywhere on the field it's teleporting.  Mages twirling staffs, wrapping them around their back to attack, just too much. 

3) I preferred Deathblows to bodies exploding of falling into pieces

4) Too many fights where they threw in fodder with tiny life bars just to mow down.  It didn't add anything tachtical to the fight, it just added tedium.

5) Some bosses like Arishok for example, too many HP for the fight, once again added nothing but tedium.

6) Auto targeting.  Losing targeting after you did something like shield bash, scatter or anything that knocked an enemy down.

7) Last and most importantly, it just wasn't as fun.  I constantly found the combat becoming tedious to the point where I was hoping to avoid getting in fights, which is something that never happened on Origins.

Now some of this is due to the encounter mechanics as well of course, but I still much preferred Origins.  I like the closing technique to engage an enemy, that was an improvement.

[Firky]

I don't think combat in DA2 was absolutely perfect, but I did think it was improved in a few key ways. (In my opinion.)

- Longer cooldowns made ability choice more meaningful. (Less heals = good, especially.)
- A whole bunch of cheese was removed. (Like being able to throw storm of the century into a closed room.)
- Reinforcements made it more fun to react to a changing environment, rather than just picking off enemies one by one, or planning the whole battle before it'd begun (although, I did miss stealth and scouting for that purpose.)
- Nightmare was actually a real challenge. (I don't mind enemies with lots of HP. I'd prefer they played by the same rules, like in BG, but it's hard to compare, because its not D&D rules etc. I just got used to not casting Walking Bomb on an ally's head.)
- I liked the knockbacks because it provided a nasty consequence to letting your ranged companion get battered and made positioning more vital.
- Some of the action stuff that was added really enhanced my experience. So, instead of an ogre just hitting you at the beginning of his action (even if you run away) you could see him telegraphing a charge, lure darkpawn into his path and then dodge and he'd damage his allies. All the usual strategy, plus some clever action elements on top, ftw.

That stuff.

My one big bone to pick with DA2's combat was that it was too easy to manually dodge melee enemies, but that was addressed quite well in Legacy with higher tiered troops seeming to have quicker and more attacks. (I think, I was finding them hard to dodge, anyway.)

The fact that you can play it just controlling one character on casual/normal, I think, is actually pretty cool. I'm not into that style of play, I'm a micromanager, but I think it works quite flexibly across a range of styles.

[Sinuphro]

Joy Divison wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Trash mobs having thousands of hit points whereas the heroes have 180 is rather immersion breaking. If your cone of cold catches Varric and 3 bad guys, you'll one-shot Varric yet only take about 10% of the mobs health.

I agree with this. But I like how the enemies have more health, as it makes the combat feel better than me just taking down enemies with 3-5 hits with no effort like I did in Origins. Not that DAII had much effort required for the mooks present.

Question: Would a solution where the player can have health like in -- and I expect I'll receive flak for this -- the Final Fantasy games work? Like where you could still upgrade your stats however you wish, but instead of it being a couple hundred points of health at most it's more than that?

That way, you can't one-shot Varric anymore.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel.  For 30 years the PCs and bad guys each automatically received hit points per level and had roughly the same amount excepting special enemies or high level creatures which needed extra HPs to withstand advanced PC abilities.  This concept, while not perfect, had worked reasonably well enough that resources should have been devoted elsewhere to give us a more finished and polished product.

That's what I was originally thinking, but I figured people on here wouldn't like having health and stamina/mana customization removed from their control when leveling up.

The system should definitely still allow people to gain bonus HPs and mana by investing in Con and WP.  That part of DA2 is done right.

i agree

[Sylvanpyxie]

Combat in RPGs doesn't bother me. If i want to play a game for good combat i'll play anything that isn't an RPG.

Dragon Age 2 wasn't bad. Origins wasn't bad. Neither were particularly good though..

Which do i prefer? Origins, *NOT* because it was better, but because i grew up with Icewind Dale/Planescape combat.

[eroeru]

Going a bit stray:

Many people tend to put an emphasis on the subjectivity of a claim of quality. Whilst this has awfully lot of good counter-arguments in itself ("professional" philosophy, anyone?), I'm not going to start this debate, but rather say this:

If you believe that a claim of quality is more subjective (not going to say "absolutely subjective", cause it would contradict itself; + we cannot render anything purely subjective, that would make it impossible to speak of the same thing - or even in such level that anything is understood), then this position also renders the term "better" as always truly having the meaning that you've stated. So if someone doesn't add "IMO" to every sentence, you should think it there yourself, because of your belief.

Sorry for derailing, but I'm really annoyed by the comments criticizing other's opinions, based on deep-rooted undeveloped cultural relativism...

[surfgirlusa_2006]

I would prefer a balance of the two styles, personally.

DA:O
-Skills. I want to be able to engage in combat in different ways (or not engage as the case may be). Coercion, traps, and other elements could and should be reinstated to a degree.
-Animations toned down a bit.
-Amount of hit points. DA2 bosses battles weren't more challenging; they just took longer because of the excessive number of hit points. DA:O was better in this regard.

DA2
-The speed. I HATED playing warriors in DA:O, because every time I swung my sword it took so long that the enemies I was aiming for had moved far away.
-Talent trees. This was a better format than DA:O, but I think it can be improved with additional trees and talents.
-Cross class combos were a nice addition.

Other elements:
-Use the environment more. This was done on occasion, but I should be able to hide behind trees, gain a height advantage, cause a mini rockslide, etc. It doesn't have to be in every battle, but this element would be welcome.
-More strategic boss battles. I want each boss fight to be more unique, and not just whacking at something with a ton of hit points.

I'm also in support of reducing the amount of trash mobs.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I'm a console player.

Modifié par surfgirlusa_2006, 26 octobre 2011 - 12:56 .

[ad1dash0lm3s]

 I prefer the DA2 combat. I am a console player though and I just thought it was too difficult to tell my companions where to go and what to do every time. Having watched some people play on a PC, I can see why they like the more tactical approach that DA:O has. Overall, I think PC should be tactical and console not as tactical.

[eroeru]

ad1dash0lm3s wrote...
Overall, I think PC should be tactical and console not as tactical.

At first this idea seems weird and not possible, but actually it could have merit... Only that so many other things with the new direction seem to contradict what the many players want anyway. For example the "badass" action-awesome stylistic look on things.

Modifié par eroeru, 29 octobre 2011 - 10:45 .

[xkg]

I hate the new combat (mechanics & animations) with pure passion. It made DA2 almost unplayable for me and I only managed to make three playthroughs thanks to killallhostiles cheat.

TBH it is the most boring and tedious combat system I've seen in WRPGs (though not as bad as in most JRPGs).

Voted in both polls. My choices are obvious.

Modifié par xkg, 30 octobre 2011 - 05:32 .