103 réponses à ce sujet

[AreleX]

da2 is a more tactical game than da:o ever was, if you don't think so, you probably play on normal.

if you set up their tactics well, companion stupidity is made as much of a non-issue as is possible. if you need additional help, you can select your whole party and have them move to a point on console only slightly less conveniently than you can on pc. the platform isn't the issue, it's the player.

i apologize if it sounds like i'm trying to bag on you, i'm really not, it's just that statements like these kind of irk me. you can basically do anything you can on pc on console!

[xkg]

AreleX wrote...
da2 is a more tactical game than da:o ever was, if you don't think so, you probably play on normal.

So I've played my first playthrough on Nighmare and somehow I can't find this combat to be more tactical in any way.
Maybe you could enlighten me ?

Oh yes I have a few tactics like for example encounters with mages.
Enemy mage is popping up and casting this protection bubble on himself. So I am sending everyone but my rogue to fight the other mooks. My Rogue is waiting behind that mage to kill him quickly right after this bubble dissapers. And it is like that in every single damn encounter with mages. Yes it so much tactical.

Waves and Enemies appearing from the thin air doesn't help at all.

Or can you set some traps and then lure your enemies ? Is there any way to set an ambush on them.
Every fight is a simple head-on hack and slash mess with dancing mages around the battlefield and telporting rogues.

Where is this tactics you're talking about ?

[Tommyspa]

You can handle most encounters the same way in both games. Claiming one is more tactful is solely an experience thing of the player. The Corypheus fight is the most challenging fight in both games for me so far. Though I prefer everything about DA2's combat because DA:O was a bit of a slog through with a bit of shimmy-poke staff orbs and shooting fireballs at groups of enemies.

[eroeru]

Tommyspa wrote...

Claiming one is more tactful is solely an experience thing of the player. The Corypheus fight is the most challenging fight in both games for me so far.

Yes, and yet both I and you claim these (to large degree - or in a certain logic absolutely) personal preferences. Why is that? Maybe because this feeling and intuition about the game is actually important and meaningful?

[Fallstar]

Tommyspa wrote...

You can handle most encounters the same way in both games. Claiming one is more tactful is solely an experience thing of the player. The Corypheus fight is the most challenging fight in both games for me so far. Though I prefer everything about DA2's combat because DA:O was a bit of a slog through with a bit of shimmy-poke staff orbs and shooting fireballs at groups of enemies.

Did you beat the Harvester on nightmare? Corypheus was a joke compared to that.

[Tommyspa]

eroeru wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

Claiming one is more tactful is solely an experience thing of the player. The Corypheus fight is the most challenging fight in both games for me so far.

Yes, and yet both I and you claim these (to large degree - or in a certain logic absolutely) personal preferences. Why is that? Maybe because this feeling and intuition about the game is actually important and meaningful?

Nothing wrong with having personal preference. Doesn't mean I can't see the games are similar and pick one I like the combat more in. I played DA:O more, therefore it is easier, goes along with the slow pace as well. DA2 requires me to think more about tactics and think faster, so I like it a bit more.

[Tommyspa]

DuskWarden wrote...

Did you beat the Harvester on nightmare? Corypheus was a joke compared to that.

DA:O had more exploitable slow downs/stop spells for all the random zombies so they couldn't just pick at you, and the ability to pretty much never be hit as a dex. based rogue archer, you can literally sit and attack it, while making the Golem heal everyone else not to mention spam potion heal. The Harvester was easier than Corypheus for me, I have yet to take him down on higher than normal.

[Uccio]

Tommyspa wrote...
 The Corypheus fight is the most challenging fight in both games for me so far.

Seriously? I just ran from statue to statue ignoring companions (I left them fend of enemies by themselves), until facing C only. From that on it was pure hack/slash/hack/slash.  I didn´t find any need for anything remotely similar to tactics.

[Tommyspa]

Ukki wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...
 The Corypheus fight is the most challenging fight in both games for me so far.

Seriously? I just ran from statue to statue ignoring companions (I left them fend of enemies by themselves), until facing C only. From that on it was pure hack/slash/hack/slash.  I didn´t find any need for anything remotely similar to tactics.

The first time I beat him I did that, it took forever. (Longer than soloing the Harvester in GOA) But I was alone throughout the fight, thus no party tactics were needed, keeping them alive however did. Leaving them all to fend for themselves was incredibly inefficient.

[kingjezza]

"I play on PC and combat has worsened from DA:O"

This for me.

Combat was probably my main gripe from DA2 and the main reason I just gave up on the game in chapter 3, it was just horrible, mind numbingly crap. As for the combat moves, it's like the locked a bunch of 12 year old boys in a room full of Sunny Delight and told them to think up their idea for "awesome" combat.

I don't see this new fluidity some people seem to, it's just faster.

[eroeru]

Tommyspa wrote...

eroeru wrote...
Yes, and yet both I and you claim these (to large degree - or in a certain logic absolutely) personal preferences. Why is that? Maybe because this feeling and intuition about the game is actually important and meaningful?

Nothing wrong with having personal preference. Doesn't mean I can't see the games are similar and pick one I like the combat more in. I played DA:O more, therefore it is easier, goes along with the slow pace as well. DA2 requires me to think more about tactics and think faster, so I like it a bit more.

Yup, sorry bout that one.

[Joy Divison]

Tommyspa wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...
 The Corypheus fight is the most challenging fight in both games for me so far.

Seriously? I just ran from statue to statue ignoring companions (I left them fend of enemies by themselves), until facing C only. From that on it was pure hack/slash/hack/slash.  I didn´t find any need for anything remotely similar to tactics.

The first time I beat him I did that, it took forever. (Longer than soloing the Harvester in GOA) But I was alone throughout the fight, thus no party tactics were needed, keeping them alive however did. Leaving them all to fend for themselves was incredibly inefficient.

Overcoming the limitations is companion AI does not make a fight challenging.  It makes it boring. 

[Tommyspa]

Joy Divison wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...
 The Corypheus fight is the most challenging fight in both games for me so far.

Seriously? I just ran from statue to statue ignoring companions (I left them fend of enemies by themselves), until facing C only. From that on it was pure hack/slash/hack/slash.  I didn´t find any need for anything remotely similar to tactics.

The first time I beat him I did that, it took forever. (Longer than soloing the Harvester in GOA) But I was alone throughout the fight, thus no party tactics were needed, keeping them alive however did. Leaving them all to fend for themselves was incredibly inefficient.

Overcoming the limitations is companion AI does not make a fight challenging.  It makes it boring. 

How is that true?

[Nerdage]

Define "combat system".

The increased emphasis on movement in DA2 was a massive plus. Abilities that move you around the battlefield, abilities that move the enemies around the battlefield, being able to intercept moving enemies in melee, all pluses over DAO in my opinion. In this regard it was only let down by encounter design that made little to no use of these things.

Having party members doing way more damage than enemies while having much less health was a terrible idea, skews friendly-fire hideously. Between that and the arbitrary immunities on certain types of enemies 'nightmare' mode is so riddled with false difficulty I don't see the appeal of it any more.

Cross-class combos weren't great to be honest. They're a good idea, but they're so focused on being cross-class combos that they've become really unintuitive compared to Origins' spell combos. If an enemy's brittle, wouldn't you expect slamming them into the ground with fist of the maker to do extra damage? No, because it's only a warrior's particular debuff that affects fist of the maker.. What? Why? Why can't two characters of the same class perform combos? Because then the name becomes a misnomer?

Swings and roundabouts really. DA2 improved some things from DAO, but then completely messed up others that were fine before.

[edeheusch]

Joy Divison wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...
 The Corypheus fight is the most challenging fight in both games for me so far.

Seriously? I just ran from statue to statue ignoring companions (I left them fend of enemies by themselves), until facing C only. From that on it was pure hack/slash/hack/slash.  I didn´t find any need for anything remotely similar to tactics.

The first time I beat him I did that, it took forever. (Longer than soloing the Harvester in GOA) But I was alone throughout the fight, thus no party tactics were needed, keeping them alive however did. Leaving them all to fend for themselves was incredibly inefficient.

Overcoming the limitations is companion AI does not make a fight challenging.  It makes it boring. 

I agree completely, most of the boss fight in DA2 are not specially challenging, there are just long (and most of the time it made them only boring).

The first time I tried to fight Corypheus the challenge was to understand how you have to survive during the special part. However when you have understood what you have to do, it is just repeat the process 3 times.

The duel with the Arishok was the perfect example of the worst fight you can imagine in a computer game. I was playing a shield and sword tank character and I have spend around 45 minutes letting my character attacking him, waiting to have 10 stamina to use a shield bash and waiting for the cool down to be ready to drink a health potion.
If I had know more about this fight I would have brought 10 times more stamina potion just to shorten this most boring fight I have never play in a game (or better I would never have accepted the duel!).

Longer fight does not mean better fight but it often means boring fight.

[Theagg]

AreleX wrote...

da2 is a more tactical game than da:o ever was, if you don't think so, you probably play on normal.

if you set up their tactics well, companion stupidity is made as much of a non-issue as is possible. if you need additional help, you can select your whole party and have them move to a point on console only slightly less conveniently than you can on pc. the platform isn't the issue, it's the player.

i apologize if it sounds like i'm trying to bag on you, i'm really not, it's just that statements like these kind of irk me. you can basically do anything you can on pc on console!

Spot on. The point, as you make is companion tactics. Getting those perfected makes a huge difference to how some encounters play out. So when people complain DA 2 isn't 'tactical' I'm not sure what they are actually referring to because tactics are right there at the heart of the game to be utilised.

Never mind the fact tactical positioning is more relevant in DA 2 than it ever was in Origins.

Modifié par Theagg, 31 octobre 2011 - 10:19 .

[Theagg]

Tommyspa wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Did you beat the Harvester on nightmare? Corypheus was a joke compared to that.

DA:O had more exploitable slow downs/stop spells for all the random zombies so they couldn't just pick at you, and the ability to pretty much never be hit as a dex. based rogue archer, you can literally sit and attack it, while making the Golem heal everyone else not to mention spam potion heal. The Harvester was easier than Corypheus for me, I have yet to take him down on higher than normal.

Hmm, he is fairly easy on Nightmare though..believe us. Especially if you keep 'hold' active all the time when he's in the middle. It's just that depending on your class and party make up Corypheus can take a fair while to finish off.

I call it the "Magic Roundabout" fight.

[Aaleel]

edeheusch wrote...

I agree completely, most of the boss fight in DA2 are not specially challenging, there are just long (and most of the time it made them only boring).

The first time I tried to fight Corypheus the challenge was to understand how you have to survive during the special part. However when you have understood what you have to do, it is just repeat the process 3 times.

The duel with the Arishok was the perfect example of the worst fight you can imagine in a computer game. I was playing a shield and sword tank character and I have spend around 45 minutes letting my character attacking him, waiting to have 10 stamina to use a shield bash and waiting for the cool down to be ready to drink a health potion.
If I had know more about this fight I would have brought 10 times more stamina potion just to shorten this most boring fight I have never play in a game (or better I would never have accepted the duel!).

Longer fight does not mean better fight but it often means boring fight.

I agree with all of this, but especially the bolded part.  Whether it was Corypheus, the High Dragon, Arishok, Rock Wraith the fights were just saying "ok I know what I need to do," then having to repeat it over and over and over.  That makes them tedious, long and boring, at least it did for me.

[R0vena]

The poll suggests that if you liked one you automatically dislike the other?
I think options "Liked both, both had good features" or "hated both" should be added.

[ByeDragonAgeUniverseIllMissYou]

Worse, if I wanted to play a fighter game, I would have played Street Fighter.

[Joy Divison]

Tommyspa wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Overcoming the limitations is companion AI does not make a fight challenging.  It makes it boring. 

How is that true?

See edeheusch and Aaleel's posts.  Long repetitious fights + if you don't manually control your companion they die =

I actually liked the Ser Varnell fight a lot.  Now if Varnell was more than a pile of hit points who waved his arms around it probably could have been the best fight in the entire series.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 02 novembre 2011 - 05:14 .

[eroeru]

R0vena wrote...

The poll suggests that if you liked one you automatically dislike the other?
I think options "Liked both, both had good features" or "hated both" should be added.

True, though these polls are more specifically addressing the polarization, I think.

[philippe willaume]

Hello

DA:2 combat did improve on lots of thing that did not work very well in DA;0
For example people by passing your tank going to the softies before you could taunt them.
As well in DA:2 all classes can perform high damage attacks and crowd control and as well they are better balance than in power.

The link between characteristic and damage, defence is much clearer.
Cross class combo are easier to set up and exploit and the companion tactics are simpler and cleared in DA:2.

You can predict and avoid the bosses special quite easily in DA2

Unfortunately, combat ends up being more tedious and boring in DA:2 even though it is quicker than DA:0
Now when you know that in DA:0 I paused all the time because it is less painful than trying to create viable tactic for the companion, so I ended up with a minimalist default behaviour and “I am assuming direct control” to quote Harbringer.

You are right to assume that it must be quite something for me to find something more tedious. But for me repeating the same thing had nauseam until the cows comes home.
kiting, running around pillars, holding in an alcove the time of a round about, positioning your team or the opponent so that you can combo or running in the middle of a mob and swat them all with whatever talent gain stamina with the ones you kill, I would not call that tactical per see.

But really it is matter of optimal build and cruise control and repeat ad nauseam.
I think the boss are really the one that are killing and not that softly.
The game is ok in nightmare, but some of the boss-fights do my head in.
Strangely enough the Arishok fight never bored me, though it is a bit repetitive and is so much of a drinking contest that I almost expected him to turn around and tell me he bloddy loves me and I am his bestest mate.

However some of the boss fights in DA2 and DLC just makes keel over in despair, not that it is kicking my bottom, it just that it is tedious.

For me DA:0 is much more tactical, you could use the terrain better , change how you use each character according to the situation and you could make it with a sub-optimal build and you did not have to quaff potion every bloody boss fight.

[eroeru]

R0vena wrote...

The poll suggests that if you liked one you automatically dislike the other?
I think options "Liked both, both had good features" or "hated both" should be added.

Actually no. If you did not vote then you automatically either don't like either or like both likewise. Which doesn't give any info for the comparison...

[Cyberstrike nTo]

alex90c wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Exaggeration is awesome.

I remember that in DAO when you went back to Redcliff that pretty much all the Darkspawn there died if you so much as touched them. The only ones that I remember actually having to fight were the Ogre and the Emissary.

Redcliff isnt the last or the first time this happens in DAO either.

That's only when you return to Redcliffe and during the battle for Denerim, everywhere else darkspawn have their normal levels of HP.  On the other hand, in DA2 you're capable constantly of one-shotting mooks during the entire game.

I had to deal with one-kill wonders in DA:O all of the time. In fact I found the combat so boring in DA:O that I would have to fight falling asleep during the fights.

I don't have either problem with the combat in DA2 though plus I actually enjoy playing as mages in DA2, whereas in DA:O, I absolutely HATED playing as a mage.

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 02 novembre 2011 - 06:10 .