348 réponses à ce sujet

[N172]

Multiplayer-NPC-Squadmates (i dont call them bots since 3rd Party Cheat- or Gamehostingsoftware is usually refered to as bot) whould be suitable for the collectors edition since collectors are those who play a game again years after it has been released.

[ReshyShira]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

James_Raynor wrote...

Bots are good if you lack people to play with, it sucks to be effectively locked out of content because you don't have friends who own a gaming computer and are interested (and own) mass effect 3.

How can you be locked out of content, if you can do the same thing in SP mode?
You are no more "locked out of content" for not playing MP, as you are "locked out of content" for not purchasing the Collector Edition.

"It's very hard"

That's the issue, it's not built for it and either you have to be able to pass the difficulty bar or no content for you.

[Shia Luck]

Lumikki wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...

Of course, if their implementation has been designed from the start, like MP was, and so are already included then the whole question is moot, and I shall welcome their appearance.

This is actually interesting comment. It was long time that we did not even know is there anykind of MP in ME3...

...So, was the delay really because polishing the product like they sayed
or because they finaly figured how to make co-op work in ME3 like
EA wanted. I ques they could have tryed from allmost start to get MP in,
but game doesn't seem to be design for it from start....

Point been I don't think MP was in ME3 from start, like bots doesn't have to be.

Well, you can think what you want, but I suggest you watch the video and read the FAQ. They are very clear that MP and SP has been an "integrated design" and that MP is something they have wanted to have in ME for a very long time. ME3 gave them the chance to do it.

Lumikki wrote...
They allready have some AI for bots, because ME3 is design in team (of 3) gameplay even when soloing. it just wasn't design for player teams, but npcs where there from start.

Well, this doesn;t relate to my post at all because I was talking about the scaling aspect the OP suggested, but I'll respond in that while they have squad AI, (obviously), they have SP squad AI in which the player can control the actions of the squad. To 'recreate' a coop experience with bots the AI must be changed so that the player cannot control how the bots move, fight or react. That might be easy, or it might not. We simply don't know seeing as we have no access to the AI source code.

My interpretation of the info we have so far, is that bots have not been included because it has been mentioned how difficult it is to complete the MP aspects without other players. So, if that interpretation is correct, at the very least, this thread is asking the devs to change the way squad AI works/create new MP bot/squad AI, change every encounter in the MP section to be scaleable to party size and create a bunch of bot NPCs.

As far as I can see, only the last one is an easy thing for them to do. As I said before, they should (imho) not make encounters scaleable, which will save them a lot of work, but we shouldn't be assuming that removing player control from the AI is an easy thing to do. Getting AI to work right is incredibly difficult. And do you know what system is used for bots/squad members in terms of pathing (moving around the map)? In my experience of modding BW games, getting the bots to path correctly can involve multiple redesigns of the area and/or creation of waypoints and/or other solutions. And pathing is only one problem if you add bots to an area/mission that was designed for clever humans rather than brainless bots to wander round. For example, should the bots now come to heal you if you fall, like a human player can? If so, that's more AI that needs to be written and tested and debugged.

Whatever you may think, it is not going to be as easy as adding a few new NPC bots and assigning them the current AI.

[Bogsnot1]

N172 wrote...

Multiplayer-NPC-Squadmates (i dont call them bots since 3rd Party Cheat- or Gamehostingsoftware is usually refered to as bot) whould be suitable for the collectors edition since collectors are those who play a game again years after it has been released.

There are many old games which I still play, that are not Collectors Editions. Playing a game years after its release is an indication of how much you liked the game, not whether or not you are a "collector"

James_Raynor wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

James_Raynor wrote...
Bots are good if you lack people to play with, it sucks to be effectively locked out of content because you don't have friends who own a gaming computer and are interested (and own) mass effect 3.

How can you be locked out of content, if you can do the same thing in SP mode?
You are no more "locked out of content" for not playing MP, as you are "locked out of content" for not purchasing the Collector Edition.

"It's very hard"

That's the issue, it's not built for it and either you have to be able to pass the difficulty bar or no content for you.

You are confusing doing the missions in SP with doing the missions solo in MP.
Co-op is an alternative way of doing the exact same thing in SP mode.  So if you do the same missions in SP, you arent "locked out" of content. You just did them by yourself, instead of with friends. No content is lost. 

[Someone With Mass]

One bot or two wouldn't hurt.

Would really help those who have lousy internet speeds, like myself.

[FSOAH]

Bots have to be in the game. There is no excuse for not including it.

[trucoolbrees]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

N172 wrote...

Multiplayer-NPC-Squadmates (i dont call them bots since 3rd Party Cheat- or Gamehostingsoftware is usually refered to as bot) whould be suitable for the collectors edition since collectors are those who play a game again years after it has been released.

There are many old games which I still play, that are not Collectors Editions. Playing a game years after its release is an indication of how much you liked the game, not whether or not you are a "collector"

James_Raynor wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

James_Raynor wrote...
Bots are good if you lack people to play with, it sucks to be effectively locked out of content because you don't have friends who own a gaming computer and are interested (and own) mass effect 3.

How can you be locked out of content, if you can do the same thing in SP mode?
You are no more "locked out of content" for not playing MP, as you are "locked out of content" for not purchasing the Collector Edition.

"It's very hard"

That's the issue, it's not built for it and either you have to be able to pass the difficulty bar or no content for you.

You are confusing doing the missions in SP with doing the missions solo in MP.
Co-op is an alternative way of doing the exact same thing in SP mode.  So if you do the same missions in SP, you arent "locked out" of content. You just did them by yourself, instead of with friends. No content is lost. 

I think this is where your getting confused. The co-op missions are not the same missions as the single player campaign. 

[cindercatz]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

You are confusing doing the missions in SP with doing the missions solo in MP.
Co-op is an alternative way of doing the exact same thing in SP mode.  So if you do the same missions in SP, you arent "locked out" of content. You just did them by yourself, instead of with friends. No content is lost. 

Do we know that the exact missions/maps/etc. are even in SP? I understand that the MP missions are designed solely as MP missions, alternative to other things in the SP game (and other things like Facebook tie-ins, etc., which I won't participate in). Yes you can get the same end game outcome, but I don't know of anything that's said you can actually play the MP missions and maps in the SP campaign. Did I miss something about that?

[trucoolbrees]

cindercatz wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

You are confusing doing the missions in SP with doing the missions solo in MP.
Co-op is an alternative way of doing the exact same thing in SP mode.  So if you do the same missions in SP, you arent "locked out" of content. You just did them by yourself, instead of with friends. No content is lost. 

Do we know that the exact missions/maps/etc. are even in SP? I understand that the MP missions are designed solely as MP missions, alternative to other things in the SP game (and other things like Facebook tie-ins, etc., which I won't participate in). Yes you can get the same end game outcome, but I don't know of anything that's said you can actually play the MP missions and maps in the SP campaign. Did I miss something about that?

No you didn't miss anything. Multiplayer has completely different missions from single player. Hence the reason the developers stated that none of the main characters would appear in MP.

[Bogsnot1]

trucoolbrees wrote...
I think this is where your getting confused. The co-op missions are not the same missions as the single player campaign.

cindercatz wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...
You are confusing doing the missions in SP with doing the missions solo in MP.
Co-op is an alternative way of doing the exact same thing in SP mode.  So if you do the same missions in SP, you arent "locked out" of content. You just did them by yourself, instead of with friends. No content is lost. 

Do we know that the exact missions/maps/etc. are even in SP? I understand that the MP missions are designed solely as MP missions, alternative to other things in the SP game (and other things like Facebook tie-ins, etc., which I won't participate in). Yes you can get the same end game outcome, but I don't know of anything that's said you can actually play the MP missions and maps in the SP campaign. Did I miss something about that?

It's possible that the maps may not be 100% identical, as they could be optimised for better tactics (high ground for snipers etc),  but the missions would be the same. Given what we have seen from the SP demo thus far, where there have been multiple paths to choose from, its entirely possible that there wont even be exclusive maps for MP.

If you can get the same outcome playing single player, as you can with co-op, that means one of two things
1- SP will have identical missions
OR
2- Co-op missions mean nothing.

So, logically, doing the missions as co-op, simply removes the requirement for you to do them in SP mode, and thus you will not miss out on any content.

edit: 
@trucoolbrees: MP having different characters than you standard squad would remove the squabbling over who gets to play Shep, or the complaints over everybody is being Shep. In the case of MP, it can be likened to Shep is ordering a squad to "go capture teh red flag", so he can go off to another planet and capture the blue flag.

Modifié par Bogsnot1, 22 octobre 2011 - 01:14 .

[Lumikki]

Have Bioware sayed it or do you just make assumption based from your own perception as how you see it?

Because how you want something to be, isn't allways how it will be. Because there is allways alternative possibilities, untill it's directly sayed by them as how it is, without misunderstanding or other interpretation of the possibilities.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 octobre 2011 - 01:24 .

[Bogsnot1]

Bioware have not said anything to me. I am using logical deduction based upon the facts that we have available to us at the moment.

If you have more information, or can spot a flaw in my reasoning, I'm willing to listen to it. But just saying "I want it because I dont want to miss out on content I paid for", without being able to produce any facts or logical reasoning that you will be missing out on any content, is an empty argument.

Modifié par Bogsnot1, 22 octobre 2011 - 01:52 .

[SnowHeart1]

I've never been receptive to the "missing content I paid for" argument. You have the option to use it or not. You either have the hardware and connetions you need for it, or not. You either have the desire to play it, or not. You're not "missing it" -- you have it on your disc just like everyone else.

Same thing with the MP. My ME games are all on the Xbox, so ME3 will be on the Xbox. I don't have Gold and I don't have an always-on connection for the xbox (got to wire it through my laptop when I need updates or DLC). So, I will not be playing MP unless there are bots or something. Nonetheless, I will not be "missing" anything. I will simply not be using that content. Will I have paid for it? Yes -- and that's one of the reasons I've been against adding MP. But I will not be "missing" it or having it "locked" against me. I will simply have made certain choices that mean I won't be using it. Blergh.

That said, if the sole and only question in this resurrected thread is whether to have bots or not, I'm all for it. According to some, EA/Bioware have unlimited resources to spend on this, and since it's "completely seperate" from the single-player experience and budget and thus will not adversely effect my SP experience, yes, add the bots. (Assuming there aren't any technical limitations on the ability to do this.)

[cindercatz]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

trucoolbrees wrote...
I think this is where your getting confused. The co-op missions are not the same missions as the single player campaign.

cindercatz wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...
You are confusing doing the missions in SP with doing the missions solo in MP.
Co-op is an alternative way of doing the exact same thing in SP mode.  So if you do the same missions in SP, you arent "locked out" of content. You just did them by yourself, instead of with friends. No content is lost. 

Do we know that the exact missions/maps/etc. are even in SP? I understand that the MP missions are designed solely as MP missions, alternative to other things in the SP game (and other things like Facebook tie-ins, etc., which I won't participate in). Yes you can get the same end game outcome, but I don't know of anything that's said you can actually play the MP missions and maps in the SP campaign. Did I miss something about that?

It's possible that the maps may not be 100% identical, as they could be optimised for better tactics (high ground for snipers etc),  but the missions would be the same. Given what we have seen from the SP demo thus far, where there have been multiple paths to choose from, its entirely possible that there wont even be exclusive maps for MP.

If you can get the same outcome playing single player, as you can with co-op, that means one of two things
1- SP will have identical missions
OR
2- Co-op missions mean nothing.

So, logically, doing the missions as co-op, simply removes the requirement for you to do them in SP mode, and thus you will not miss out on any content.

edit: 
@trucoolbrees: MP having different characters than you standard squad would remove the squabbling over who gets to play Shep, or the complaints over everybody is being Shep. In the case of MP, it can be likened to Shep is ordering a squad to "go capture teh red flag", so he can go off to another planet and capture the blue flag.

I understand it differently. The way I took it is that MP missions and SP missions both effect the same set of stats, that directly determine how many troops are available, etc. in the end game, but that they are entirely different missions. Then there are other means of effecting those same stats that do not involve highly similar missions.

I think the reason you don't play Shep or the companion characters, aside from gameplay issues, which are many, is that co-op in the main campaign would severely damage the SP campaign, the player's personal experience of it. Disconnected co-op adds something to the game without detracting from the primary game.

[Reaper Kitten of Doom]

Bots please!

I want to be able to play all of the game without buying xbox gold membership!

[Valdrane78]

I am all for this idea. The chances of the ME3 co-op part of the game being as popular as other multiplayer games is very slim, and will therefore lack the longevity that those games have.

However, I am against the idea of having bots in the game at launch. There will be plenty of ME3 fans at launch who will want to play the co-op campaign and there will be no need for bots. Maybe a year down the road, when it has lost some of it's luster and there are fewer people playing the SP for the MP to matter.

[Xerxes52]

Sure, I would support bots.

[Genshie]

Reaper Kitten of Doom wrote...

Bots please!

I want to be able to play all of the game without buying xbox gold membership!

And you are one of the few valid people in this situation to be asking for "bots"  the people that are not valid are those simply complaining over not wanting to play with other people or just not wanting to experience the "co-op" with real people when they have the reasources to do so and still insist on playing alone. (Or those complaining because their "particular" friends are not online and they don't want to play with strangers) Although there is a counter arguement for those who are just too lazy and or don't want to spend money for upgrading their Xbox Live accounts which is buy ME3 for PS3 or PC those are technically free. Also people have to realize that adding bots in the "co-op" will be much different from the SP campaign controlled computer A.I. for the simple fact that you won't have control over any of the party members in the Co-op mode. (It will be similar to the bots from GoW3, Red Faction, and any other multiplayer shooter where you can add bots since you don't have control over them either) For those complaining about difficulty there is normally a difficulty setting in these types of hordes modes which is changeable or is stated before you start it, like in GoW3 their horde mode setting is stated before you start it and you can choose to play it on harder difficulties later. (This puts the difficulty argument to rest since the difficulty is optional/changable as well this is of course assuming that there is more than one difficulty setting and since SP campaign has multiple difficulty settings which you can change on the fly I would imagine the co-op would as well.)

[cindercatz]

Genshie wrote...

... the people that are not valid are those simply complaining over not wanting to play with other people or just not wanting to experience the "co-op" with real people when they have the reasources to do so and still insist on playing alone. (Or those complaining because their "particular" friends are not online and they don't want to play with strangers) ... 

And you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. If you'd ever had to put up with, or fight back against, some of the extremely severe crap I've had to while playing online, you wouldn't begin to question the validity of these concerns.

I'll still play online. I plan to. Seriously, anybody interested in friending on XBL for ME3 co-op, send me a message. I'm a nice guy, play fair, and can enjoy a good laugh. You like to chat about random stuff while playing, I can do that too. Only drawback is I'm not consistently online. :-) ..and I don't play most other shooters.

But there are plenty of people out there that are there only to make somebody's life miserable for however long, just because they know nobody can really come back at them over the internet. I honestly can't count the number of times I've been harassed online or the number of times I've been randomly insulted by someone I haven't ever seen or spoken a word to. (correct response to them, apparently: "f--- off", anything civil or measured just goads them on, makes it worse) When and if there's somebody that's fun to play with, I'm all for it, though I don't do so very often anymore, because of repeated trash experiences. I'll play card games and that kind of thing more often, because I can play with the mic off, and even then some people feel the need to throw insults over the television speakers.

I don't hate multiplayer or co-op. I do hate having to deal with people whose sole purpose is to verbally assault me, especially when I can't come back at them in any way that matters. That is a valid concern.

[nitefyre410]

The Bots I don't mind- I would use them waiting for a someone to get online and take the bots place - especially on a mission I can handle on my own.

[Bogsnot1]

cindercatz wrote...
I understand it differently. The way I took it is that MP missions and SP missions both effect the same set of stats, that directly determine how many troops are available, etc. in the end game, but that they are entirely different missions. Then there are other means of effecting those same stats that do not involve highly similar missions.

I think the reason you don't play Shep or the companion characters, aside from gameplay issues, which are many, is that co-op in the main campaign would severely damage the SP campaign, the player's personal experience of it. Disconnected co-op adds something to the game without detracting from the primary game.

The reasoning behind my view is based on the information gleaned from various screenshots and movies that have been released so far. 



In this image, we clearly see 3 mission sites. Now, Shep and gang could go along and do all 3 missions should he chose to. Or, he could go and do one of them, and once completed, he could fly off to the next system, leaving the forces that he aided free to go off and do the other 2 missions (co-op).

I'll agree with you on the reasoning behind not playing Shep and gang though, but I bet you a cookie that there will still be people making up asari adepts called L1ara, turian infiltrators called Garru5 and the like.

Reaper Kitten of Doom wrote...
Bots please! 

I want to be able to play all of the game without buying xbox gold membership!

How many other games do you own that have MP capability? Do you complain about "not being able to play all of the game" with those too?
 

[cindercatz]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

In this image, we clearly see 3 mission sites. Now, Shep and gang could go along and do all 3 missions should he chose to. Or, he could go and do one of them, and once completed, he could fly off to the next system, leaving the forces that he aided free to go off and do the other 2 missions (co-op).

I'll agree with you on the reasoning behind not playing Shep and gang though, but I bet you a cookie that there will still be people making up asari adepts called L1ara, turian infiltrators called Garru5 and the like.

lol Most likely true.
That does make sense. Understood. :-)

[DarthSliver]

I well i dont see the bots as a bad thing because its Co-Op MP, people prefer MP where they kill real people mostly. So when the better MP game comes out after ME3 or they decide to go back to MW3 to get their kill joy, MP for ME3 will die off. Thats where this bot argument can be seen at, and to that its not confirmed you can solo just last they knew it was solo-able but known to be harder to do solo. Its not completely confirmed that you can solo it on a lower difficulty last i checked the thread.
But I am willing to play Co-Op alone if i have to to try it out a bit, even if it means ill get own.

[Ricinator]

@shia luck
i didn't mean that the difficulty should be scaled down according to the amount of players in game i meant that the bots should scale with the difficulty of the enemy bots

@bogsnot1
not having skills to play MP solo locks a lot of people out, same with wanting to do it at higher difficulties solo. I understand what you mean about SP. But is it such a bad thing to add them for the RPG crowd so it can be considered an extension of SP. While MP people get some bots to fill spots when 3 people aren't available, or just having the option to mix and match with people and bots to make things more interesting. You would not have to use them if you don't want. Just like i wont be using the kinect voice thing. OPTIONAL

[dreman9999]

Ricinator wrote...

@shia luck
i didn't mean that the difficulty should be scaled down according to the amount of players in game i meant that the bots should scale with the difficulty of the enemy bots

@bogsnot1
not having skills to play MP solo locks a lot of people out, same with wanting to do it at higher difficulties solo. I understand what you mean about SP. But is it such a bad thing to add them for the RPG crowd so it can be considered an extension of SP. While MP people get some bots to fill spots when 3 people aren't available, or just having the option to mix and match with people and bots to make things more interesting. You would not have to use them if you don't want. Just like i wont be using the kinect voice thing. OPTIONAL

Playing a mp solo changes what the mode is. Mp by diffinition is not a sp game. I understand you want the play the mp but the very consept of playing alone in a mp defies it's meaning. A pve mode that has one verses everything is a survival mode. I think it would be betterto ask for a survival mode based on the sp with the common AI controls then mp with bots you can't control.