I'm on my upteenth playthrough of this game and I've once again gotten to the part where all heck breaks loose and the Arishock decides to do a little remodeling of this city's more flammable areas when it occurs to me that the lack of honesty regarding his reason for being there may have partially lead to the problems of the city.
The Arishock says tells the Viscount that they are waiting for a rescue ship. He later indicates to Hawke that he's there on a demand of the Qun, but still doesn't say that he's looking for an artifact that was stolen from the Qunari and that he's not allowed to leave until he's gotten it. It's not until the very last part of act 2 that he even mentions it. If he had been honest about it from the beginning, then wouldn't it have allowed for measures to have been taken to locate the book? As it was there was only one set of eyes really scanning for the thing (i.e. Isabella's). If the Arishock (am I spelling that right?) had been honest about his reasons, couldn't the city guard gotten involved, or elements of the city's underground eager to see them gone, or perhaps to profit from locating the book for them?
Just so I can avoid this post being a flimsy excuse to "hear my own voice" so to speak, I have two questions:
1) Could the Arishock have avoided the hulaballoo in act 2 by being honest about why he hadn't left yet? and
2) Why wasn't he honest?
The Arishock's Mistake (DA2 - Cloudy with a chance of spoilers)
Débuté par
Lazy Jer
, oct. 21 2011 08:54
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#2
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 08:58
Jedi Master of Orion
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I would imagine he didn't have any faith in the "festering cesspool" of Kirkwall to have any ability to help him retrieve the Tome. He seemed to be of the opinion that they were mostly corrupt anyway
#3
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 09:03
happy_daiz
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The answers are probably "maybe", and "because he didn't have to be", but that's just my $.02.
The Arishok did not feel enough respect for Kirkwall to bother divulging that type of information, nor did he feel that anyone (not of the Qun) was capable of understanding.
It isn't until the end of Act 2 that he even considers Hawke to be Basalit-an (worthy of respect).
The Arishok did not feel enough respect for Kirkwall to bother divulging that type of information, nor did he feel that anyone (not of the Qun) was capable of understanding.
It isn't until the end of Act 2 that he even considers Hawke to be Basalit-an (worthy of respect).
Modifié par happy_daiz, 21 octobre 2011 - 09:07 .
#4
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 09:32
Drone696
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^
Why would he talk to Basra about the demands of the Qun? It was his duty to locate the Tome of Koslun. Btw. Bas are purposeless.
Why would he talk to Basra about the demands of the Qun? It was his duty to locate the Tome of Koslun. Btw. Bas are purposeless.
#5
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 09:42
Lazy Jer
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rapunzel696 wrote...
^
Why would he talk to Basra about the demands of the Qun? It was his duty to locate the Tome of Koslun. Btw. Bas are purposeless.
Because the Tome of Koslun was in a Basra city, because it had been stolen by a Bas, then that Bas had it stolen from her by another Bas and was probably trying to sell it to yet another Bas. Bas may be "purposeless" but they're the only ones who'd seen the bloody thing in years.
btw...when you say "Bas are purposeless." do you mean "The word 'bas' means 'without purpose." or that all Bas are purposeless by virtue of the fact that they're Bas.
(I've got to get someone to start paying me a nickle for every time I type the word "bas")
#6
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 09:47
Gervaise
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The other posters are probably right - it was his duty to recover the Tome and he saw no reason to involve others not of the Qun. That soldier of his who asks you if you are responsible for the disappearance of some of their group is only doing this to acquire information - when you find out and later return to him with the news, he is upset because you have taken his task from him. There may also be the added fact that he simply doesn't trust anyone outside the Qun with the knowledge of what he is looking for. This may also be why he doesn't take up Hawke's offer to recover the Tome from Isabella. He merely asks if they know where it is but the task of recovering it is his alone. When Isabella steals it a second time, when his men were on the point of recovering it from Wall Eyed Sam, her offence would be regarded as directly against him (even if it wasn't before which is debateable), which I assume is why he then insists that the return of the Tome is no longer sufficient and he wants Isabella too.
#7
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:06
Drone696
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Lazy Jer wrote...
rapunzel696 wrote...
^
Why would he talk to Basra about the demands of the Qun? It was his duty to locate the Tome of Koslun. Btw. Bas are purposeless.
Because the Tome of Koslun was in a Basra city, because it had been stolen by a Bas, then that Bas had it stolen from her by another Bas and was probably trying to sell it to yet another Bas. Bas may be "purposeless" but they're the only ones who'd seen the bloody thing in years.
btw...when you say "Bas are purposeless." do you mean "The word 'bas' means 'without purpose." or that all Bas are purposeless by virtue of the fact that they're Bas.
(I've got to get someone to start paying me a nickle for every time I type the word "bas")
I know, just trying to see it from his perspective. It would have wounded his pride and the honour of all Qunari.
To answer your question: both. I think Qunari think of Bas initially as purposeless, worthless until they prove otherwise.
#8
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:06
Anvos
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I think the simple answer involves the fact the Arishok is about prideful and arrogent enough to make lesser pride demons seem humble in comparison. Quite honestly it makes no sense how he can think the term holy relic means nothing to the rest of the people of Thedas.
#9
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:14
Herr Uhl
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Lazy Jer wrote...
1) Could the Arishock have avoided the hulaballoo in act 2 by being honest about why he hadn't left yet? and
2) Why wasn't he honest?
Two words: classified information.
Don't show weakness in front of the Russians and all that.
#10
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:21
blothulfur
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How many more thieves would be drawn to a prize so precious as the tome of Koslun if the Arishok spoke of it? How the magisters would crow if they managed to capture the very words of the first Ashkaari. Secrets are best kept when not told.
#11
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:25
Drone696
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And what blothulfur said.
It was already a disgrace they lost it to the Orlesians. Better not expatiate on it.
It was already a disgrace they lost it to the Orlesians. Better not expatiate on it.
#12
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:48
Lazy Jer
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All very good points about why the Arishok didn't expose his true reasons for being in Kirkwall, pride and arrogance mixed with a reasonable lack of trust in the official channels he was dealing with (i.e. considered the Viscount unworthy, witnessed a lot of anti-qunari actions against his people).
Still, this whole kerfuffle could have been avoided if the Arishok had been more forthcoming with the right people. I can understand not trusting every Thomas, Richard and Harrold with the missing artifact, but, a few diplomatic inquiries and/or statements to the Viscount himself could have gotten the Qunari out of Kirkwall sooner. The Viscount may have been an indecisive tool, but he had every reason to want the Qunari gone as much as the Qunari wanted to be gone. Plus he had a few good people working for him (Okay...Aveline and not much else, but still).
That being said, diplomacy didn't appear to be in-character for this particular Arishok.
Still, this whole kerfuffle could have been avoided if the Arishok had been more forthcoming with the right people. I can understand not trusting every Thomas, Richard and Harrold with the missing artifact, but, a few diplomatic inquiries and/or statements to the Viscount himself could have gotten the Qunari out of Kirkwall sooner. The Viscount may have been an indecisive tool, but he had every reason to want the Qunari gone as much as the Qunari wanted to be gone. Plus he had a few good people working for him (Okay...Aveline and not much else, but still).
That being said, diplomacy didn't appear to be in-character for this particular Arishok.
#13
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 10:51
Herr Uhl
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Lazy Jer wrote...
That being said, diplomacy didn't appear to be in-character for this particular Arishok.
Qunari have never been accused of being good diplomats.
#14
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 11:13
Lazy Jer
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I accused them of that once, but I was both drunk and sarcastic.
#15
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 11:15
blothulfur
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Consider what the Arishok thinks of the viscount, a nobleman (which is distasteful in itself) who exercises his power through neither ability or consensus but by essentially reigning as a slavemaster elevated by inbred blood and the zealots of a non existent god. And why did Isabelllla flee to his city with the tome if somebody in the port does not have knowledge of its abduction, and perhaps paid the pirate to recover it.
He is a general, victor of hundreds of conflicts with the depredations of the beast empire and ill suited to this distasteful plotting and politicing that the bas indulge in. He comes from a world of hard struggle and hard truths into a morass of shifting alliances and falsehoods, where the enemy is not easy to find let alone fight. The culture shock he suffers is intense.
He is a general, victor of hundreds of conflicts with the depredations of the beast empire and ill suited to this distasteful plotting and politicing that the bas indulge in. He comes from a world of hard struggle and hard truths into a morass of shifting alliances and falsehoods, where the enemy is not easy to find let alone fight. The culture shock he suffers is intense.
#16
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 11:35
Lazy Jer
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blothulfur wrote...
Consider what the Arishok thinks of the viscount, a nobleman (which is distasteful in itself) who exercises his power through neither ability or consensus but by essentially reigning as a slavemaster elevated by inbred blood and the zealots of a non existent god. And why did Isabelllla flee to his city with the tome if somebody in the port does not have knowledge of its abduction, and perhaps paid the pirate to recover it.
He is a general, victor of hundreds of conflicts with the depredations of the beast empire and ill suited to this distasteful plotting and politicing that the bas indulge in. He comes from a world of hard struggle and hard truths into a morass of shifting alliances and falsehoods, where the enemy is not easy to find let alone fight. The culture shock he suffers is intense.
True. Which is why he's a kind of a lousy diplomat. Which is why the Viscount's son joining the Qunari could also have saved lives, if his role in the Qun would have been determined to gather intelligence on the missing book. So...thanks a lot Mother Petrice.
#17
Posté 21 octobre 2011 - 11:50
PantheraOnca
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To beat a dead horse, the Arishok sees the Viscount, town guard, and basically everyone in Kirkwall as despicable, untrustworthy, otherwise ineffectual and worthless as whoever actually stole the tome.
Although... he probably would say the thief was at least capable of taking the tome, whereas the "officials" in Kirkwall don't even have that going for them.
Although... he probably would say the thief was at least capable of taking the tome, whereas the "officials" in Kirkwall don't even have that going for them.
#18
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 12:08
AlexXIV
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Yeah well, considering how his plan ended, it could probably not have been worse to be honest from start. Guess honesty is not a demand of the Qun. Or diplomacy.
#19
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 12:43
PantheraOnca
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AlexXIV wrote...
Yeah well, considering how his plan ended, it could probably not have been worse to be honest from start. Guess honesty is not a demand of the Qun. Or diplomacy.
Because we all have hindsight as foresight?
#20
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 01:03
DRTJR
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The Arishok was the wrong man for the job. it would be like send Patton to negotiate a trade treaty with the Vietnamese
#21
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 01:06
Herr Uhl
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DRTJR wrote...
The Arishok was the wrong man for the job. it would be like send Patton to negotiate a trade treaty with the Vietnamese
He wasn't sent to negotiate with anyone, he was there to escort a book.
#22
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 01:21
Random Thoughts
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I always thought the Arishok didn't tell the viscount because then someone in the viscount office will leak the information to the chantry and then someone in the chantry will leak it to some zealot groups and now the qunari have to deal with crazy religious people trying to destroy the Tome.
#23
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 01:54
Lazy Jer
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PantheraOnca wrote...
AlexXIV wrote...
Yeah well, considering how his plan ended, it could probably not have been worse to be honest from start. Guess honesty is not a demand of the Qun. Or diplomacy.
Because we all have hindsight as foresight?
I don't read the statement above yours as saying "He should have known better." just as "Being honest or using diplomacy could have made the situation better."
#24
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 02:02
PantheraOnca
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my natural reaction to appeals to consequence is almost universally an annoyed "Tsk!"
but yes, i might have read snark into that comment that wasn't intended. if no snark was intended, my bad.
damned monotonal text.
but yes, i might have read snark into that comment that wasn't intended. if no snark was intended, my bad.
damned monotonal text.
#25
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 04:21
dragonflight288
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The Arishok is Qunari. Now as a dwarf, I have an easier time understanding Qunari culture than Andrastian, because they are similar in many ways (and even more different than Andrastian nations in others.)
The Arishok was chosen to be a soldier by the Tamrassan. He was raised to know nothing but war and conflict. He represents the arms and legs of the Qun body. He was sent on a mission with soldiers to get the tome from the Orlesians, and take it back to Par Vollen. Only it is stolen under his watch (so it is his responsibility in the Qun to get it back, no one else's.) Then he is shipwrecked in the storm with nothing but soldiers under his command and his understanding is the Qun and war. That's it.
He has had no training in politics, diplomacy, trade, marketing, religious conversions, philosophy or even crafting. He is a general, a soldier. That is all he knows. And he has a task granted to him alone, with the men he commands as what he's got to work with.
No matter what society someone is from, fictional or real, the generals always have to work with what they've got. And what he had were soldiers, serabaas, a city that hated him, and plenty of people who didn't understand anything about the Qun (like the Viscount. "The more I talk to him, the less I understand!".)
And despite what we see ingame, he wasn't just sitting around doing nothing. Isabella kept her nose to the ground and found the relic in act 2. When we get there, the Arishok's men are already there. They beat Hawke and Isabella to it.
After Isabella makes off with the Tome of Koslun, the politics of the city would keep him from pursuing, as proven by Aveline not letting him take conversions of desperate elves because of guard brutality and elven prejudice under he watch. So the Qun demanded that in order to successfully follow his orders, he had to remove everything in his way. Even if it meant searching through rubble.
Or at least, that's my understanding of his actions.
The Arishok was chosen to be a soldier by the Tamrassan. He was raised to know nothing but war and conflict. He represents the arms and legs of the Qun body. He was sent on a mission with soldiers to get the tome from the Orlesians, and take it back to Par Vollen. Only it is stolen under his watch (so it is his responsibility in the Qun to get it back, no one else's.) Then he is shipwrecked in the storm with nothing but soldiers under his command and his understanding is the Qun and war. That's it.
He has had no training in politics, diplomacy, trade, marketing, religious conversions, philosophy or even crafting. He is a general, a soldier. That is all he knows. And he has a task granted to him alone, with the men he commands as what he's got to work with.
No matter what society someone is from, fictional or real, the generals always have to work with what they've got. And what he had were soldiers, serabaas, a city that hated him, and plenty of people who didn't understand anything about the Qun (like the Viscount. "The more I talk to him, the less I understand!".)
And despite what we see ingame, he wasn't just sitting around doing nothing. Isabella kept her nose to the ground and found the relic in act 2. When we get there, the Arishok's men are already there. They beat Hawke and Isabella to it.
After Isabella makes off with the Tome of Koslun, the politics of the city would keep him from pursuing, as proven by Aveline not letting him take conversions of desperate elves because of guard brutality and elven prejudice under he watch. So the Qun demanded that in order to successfully follow his orders, he had to remove everything in his way. Even if it meant searching through rubble.
Or at least, that's my understanding of his actions.
