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[Anvos]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And despite what we see ingame, he wasn't just sitting around doing nothing. Isabella kept her nose to the ground and found the relic in act 2. When we get there, the Arishok's men are already there. They beat Hawke and Isabella to it.

After Isabella makes off with the Tome of Koslun, the politics of the city would keep him from pursuing, as proven by Aveline not letting him take conversions of desperate elves because of guard brutality and elven prejudice under he watch. So the Qun demanded that in order to successfully follow his orders, he had to remove everything in his way. Even if it meant searching through rubble.

Or at least, that's my understanding of his actions.

Part of me wonders if the qunari there were actually sent to follow the magisters out of fear the viscount might turn to Tevintar for advice or aid on kicking the qunari out.  If you think about it, if what the Arishok said about them being compelled to a man to died defending the knowledge of creating black powder is true, if they actually knew the tome was there it would reckon they would be equally compelled.  Also the Arishok doesn't say a thing about moving against Kirkwall, because he needs to get to the tome.

Modifié par Anvos, 22 octobre 2011 - 07:31 .

[Sajuro]

The way I see it is that the Arishok knew that if the Chantry knew he was looking for his holy book, certain factions would make double time to find it and destroy it to troll the Qunari.

[dgcatanisiri]

The events of the end of Act 2 are the result of both the disorder of human society and the inherent flaw of the qun. The qun only works properly when it's part of the whole. The Arishok is the leader of the armies. He is a soldier and he thinks like one. He cannot think otherwise. Which means that his solutions are the solutions of a soldier. Instead of being a soldier, however, he had to be a diplomat, a negotiator, a peacemaker during his time in Kirkwall, and that is not his role. He cannot change his role. Had one of the other members of the qunari triumvirate, probably the Ariqun, been there instead, things might have been different, because the viscount and the Ariqun have comparable roles in their respective societies.

Because he's a soldier, the Arishok considered his reason for being there information that the baas did not need. And retrieving the Tome of Koslun was the Arishok's task anyway. The qunari who gives you the Lost Patrol quest asks of your involvement in their disappearance. He wants information. He doesn't ask you to do his duty for him, as that says that he is not capable of fulfilling his duties, of fulfilling his role.

The events of Act 2 happen because the rigid system of the qun and the malleable system of humanity are nigh incompatible. The Arishok could only do as the qun demanded, and that is why he couldn't play the diplomat.

[AlexXIV]

Lazy Jer wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah well, considering how his plan ended, it could probably not have been worse to be honest from start. Guess honesty is not a demand of the Qun. Or diplomacy.

Because we all have hindsight as foresight?

I don't read the statement above yours as saying "He should have known better." just as "Being honest or using diplomacy could have made the situation better."

This. Basically I wonder why a system as strict and controlling as the Qun even allows lies as a way to reach goals. Most societies would consider lies dishonorable. But obviously something like a 'word of honor' doesn't have any value in the Qun.

[Gervaise]

In what ways did the Arishok lie? The Vicount says that he understands the Arishok is waiting for a ship. May be originally the Arishok thought a ship would come to find out why he had not returned home or with new orders. Until that happened he was under a obligation to continue with his original duty which was to recover the Tome. When there is no sign of any ship after 3 years, the Arishok realises that there are going to be no new orders. He did send a deputation to meet with the Vicount, which for all we know could have been a prelude for requesting assistance with looking for his Tome. However, his men disappeared on the way back to his camp. They had complied with a request to tie their swords in their sheaths so they could not be used and really the Vicount did have an obligation to ensure their safe conduct, so naturally the Arishok is going to be very displeased and no longer willing to trust anyone with his quest. Since no one had acted with honour towards his people it is hardly surprising he felt no need to give honour back. He is also not trained in diplomacy and would not have reached his position without being totally committed to Qun ideals - which do not allow for personal initiative and flexibility, particularly in a soldier.

[AlexXIV]

Gervaise wrote...

In what ways did the Arishok lie? The Vicount says that he understands the Arishok is waiting for a ship. May be originally the Arishok thought a ship would come to find out why he had not returned home or with new orders. Until that happened he was under a obligation to continue with his original duty which was to recover the Tome. When there is no sign of any ship after 3 years, the Arishok realises that there are going to be no new orders. He did send a deputation to meet with the Vicount, which for all we know could have been a prelude for requesting assistance with looking for his Tome. However, his men disappeared on the way back to his camp. They had complied with a request to tie their swords in their sheaths so they could not be used and really the Vicount did have an obligation to ensure their safe conduct, so naturally the Arishok is going to be very displeased and no longer willing to trust anyone with his quest. Since no one had acted with honour towards his people it is hardly surprising he felt no need to give honour back. He is also not trained in diplomacy and would not have reached his position without being totally committed to Qun ideals - which do not allow for personal initiative and flexibility, particularly in a soldier.

No.

The ship didn't come because it wasn't supposed to come. They were not waiting for a ship. That would have been pointless because even if a ship had come they wouldn't leave without the tome. That's the point. If they had found the tome one week after they got to Kirkwall, they probalby would have left the next. With ship or on foot.

So the ship was a lie.

[blothulfur]

No. A ship would come when they had found the tome, this is obvious. He needs not speak of private matters to a bas but even so he grants a true answer to an intrusive question and if the listener wishes to know more they can like any adult work it out themselves rather than cry and moan that strangers weren't doing what he wanted or providing full explanations.

[Lazy Jer]

blothulfur wrote...

No. A ship would come when they had found the tome, this is obvious. He needs not speak of private matters to a bas but even so he grants a true answer to an intrusive question and if the listener wishes to know more they can like any adult work it out themselves rather than cry and moan that strangers weren't doing what he wanted or providing full explanations.

Well hold on.  It may not have been a lie, but it wasn't really the truth either.  He told the Viscount they were waiting for a ship to take them back to Par Vollen, but he later told Hawke that no ship was coming.  At the very least telling a half truth without revealing the whole was at the very least deceptive.  Now he may have had his reasons, some of which may have been justified.  But the Arishok did deceive the Viscount and/or his people.

Secondly the question of "Why are you here?", while invasive, is entirely reasonable considering that the question was coming from Viscount of Kirkwall (an office charged, at the very least, with protecting Kirkwall) to a small army of Qunari with spears and swords for each. 

[AlexXIV]

Lazy Jer wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

No. A ship would come when they had found the tome, this is obvious. He needs not speak of private matters to a bas but even so he grants a true answer to an intrusive question and if the listener wishes to know more they can like any adult work it out themselves rather than cry and moan that strangers weren't doing what he wanted or providing full explanations.

Well hold on.  It may not have been a lie, but it wasn't really the truth either.  He told the Viscount they were waiting for a ship to take them back to Par Vollen, but he later told Hawke that no ship was coming.  At the very least telling a half truth without revealing the whole was at the very least deceptive.  Now he may have had his reasons, some of which may have been justified.  But the Arishok did deceive the Viscount and/or his people.

Secondly the question of "Why are you here?", while invasive, is entirely reasonable considering that the question was coming from Viscount of Kirkwall (an office charged, at the very least, with protecting Kirkwall) to a small army of Qunari with spears and swords for each. 

Well a half truth is a full lie. That's just nitpicking. Or are Qunari the first professional lawyers of Thedas?

[blothulfur]

Par Vollen lies across the sea, a ship will be needed to get there. A forced march across land is pointless when it would be quicker to simply leave by ship, thus the Arishok spoke truth as when he had recovered the tome he did leave by ship. There is no lie there, when I tell my neighbour that I am bound for the librarium I do not have to explain my research or what scrolls I shall peruse.

To be truthful I would have told the slavemaster or his representatives that it was none of their business and sent him on his way, but the Arishok is a man of mild temper and a diplomatic bent who easily tolerates such impertinence.

[General User]

It think it's pretty obvious that recovering the Tome once Isabela had wrecked was a task for which the Arishok was some combination of ill-suited, ill-equipped, and ill-prepared.

Keeping the Arishok and his entire army on station and not replacing or supplementing them with someone more suitable seems surprising to me out of the Qunari. They seem to take great pride in putting the right people to the right task.

Modifié par General User, 23 octobre 2011 - 01:47 .

[Lazy Jer]

blothulfur wrote...

Par Vollen lies across the sea, a ship will be needed to get there. A forced march across land is pointless when it would be quicker to simply leave by ship, thus the Arishok spoke truth as when he had recovered the tome he did leave by ship. There is no lie there, when I tell my neighbour that I am bound for the librarium I do not have to explain my research or what scrolls I shall peruse.

To be truthful I would have told the slavemaster or his representatives that it was none of their business and sent him on his way, but the Arishok is a man of mild temper and a diplomatic bent who easily tolerates such impertinence.

I'm not saying that the Arishok lied, per se, I'm saying that he employed deception.  It is said that he said he was waiting for a ship to take him and his army home.  But it's deceptive when you don't mention that that ship won't be arriving until such and such a task is completed.  It's a bit like telling someone that there is no dragon behind a door, it's technically true, but still deceptive if there is a wyvern behind the door.

Secondly, there's an important matter of context.  When you're going to the librarium, your neighbor may not have any right to know what you're studying, nor even the folks down at the library.  But if you show up at the library with an unlite torch and a tinderbox, then you'd better believe they have a right to know why you're there.

The Arishok didn't show up at the docks of Kirkwall with five or six of his friends clearly intending on enjoying a relaxing vacation in exotic Kirkwall, he showed up with an army...an well armed army, theoretically capable of launching a successful invasion of the city.  The Viscount, in that situation, had every reason to want to know what they were doing there.

[blothulfur]

And what is the Arishok supposed to say to this man who might be behind the abduction of the tome? Isabelllla sailed to Kirkwall for a reason. He told him a truth and it was the viscount who offered quarters for rent within the city, the Arishok was content to remain on the coast with the few men of his bodyguard but couldn't turn down such an offer despite its inherent dangers. The viscount wanted Qunari riches in his coffers and that of the cities merchants.

[Gervaise]

I think blothulfur has a point. When Ferelden refugees turn up on his doorstep, the Vicount denies them entry until they pay the appropriate bribe. When a potentially hostile force turns up on his doorstep, he invites them into the city compound. Far better to have suggested they camped outside the city walls. The docks are the life blood of the city - that is the last place you should want them to be, peace treaty or no peace treaty.

[Lazy Jer]

blothulfur wrote...

And what is the Arishok supposed to say to this man who might be behind the abduction of the tome? Isabelllla sailed to Kirkwall for a reason. He told him a truth and it was the viscount who offered quarters for rent within the city, the Arishok was content to remain on the coast with the few men of his bodyguard but couldn't turn down such an offer despite its inherent dangers. The viscount wanted Qunari riches in his coffers and that of the cities merchants.

I'm not saying he didn't have his reasons for being deceptive.  I'm sure he did have his reasons.  What I am saying is that good reasons or no, he was deceptive.  Let's not claim otherwise when it's not the case.  What I'm also saying is that, like I said, on the coast or in the city walls the Arishok showed up with a small army, not just a few body guards.  It doesn't matter where they were content to stay, the Viscount would have been horribly irresponsible not to inquire about their presence this close to the city he is charged with protecting.

..and now you're saying that the Viscount wanted Qunari riches.  How do you even justify that remark?  I wasn't even aware the Qunari had riches, per se.

[Lazy Jer]

Gervaise wrote...

I think blothulfur has a point. When Ferelden refugees turn up on his doorstep, the Vicount denies them entry until they pay the appropriate bribe. When a potentially hostile force turns up on his doorstep, he invites them into the city compound. Far better to have suggested they camped outside the city walls. The docks are the life blood of the city - that is the last place you should want them to be, peace treaty or no peace treaty.

Ferelden refugees were turned away because the city was already swarming with them at the time, with not enough room for them all, nor enough food to feed them.  The bribes were paid not to the city, but to people that had the clout to get the doors open for the select few, it may not be fair, but it happens.

The Qunari were given the space by the docks to keep them contained.  If you'll look at the area they were given it's a strategic advantage for the city guard if they do come to blows with the Qunari.  They were in an enclosed area with a gate that didn't allow the bulk of the Qunari to get through at once, only a few at a time.  Obviously that didn't help all that much considering (propagand mode: on) how the Qunari obviously did break out and ruthelessly slay the citizens of lowtown and setting their homes to the torch before heading up to hightown to brutally murder the Viscount and any of the citizens gathered who would even dare to question him. (propaganda mode: off)...but nontheless there was thought behind it, i.e., if the Qunari are in the compound, we know where they are and how many there are, vs. out on the coast where they could be landing even more forces for an invasion.

[blothulfur]

The Arishok gave a true answer, he owed the viscount no more and the man was free to turn him away if that was judged insufficient.

My deduction is based on logic, why else would the nobleman want this company sized retinue of Qunari in his city. We are almost as rich as the dwarven nobility are reputed to be, though wealth is not strictly needed in our lands as you will be fed, clothed and cared for medically by the state. We have noticed that it is very useful in dealing with the bas though.

[DPSSOC]

Gervaise wrote...

I think blothulfur has a point. When Ferelden refugees turn up on his doorstep, the Vicount denies them entry until they pay the appropriate bribe. When a potentially hostile force turns up on his doorstep, he invites them into the city compound. Far better to have suggested they camped outside the city walls. The docks are the life blood of the city - that is the last place you should want them to be, peace treaty or no peace treaty.

On the refugees Kirkwall did accept refugees, when Hawke shows up they'd just taken in too many and there wasn't room for anymore.  At that point bribes were necessary to get into the city but we're not given any indication they were required before hand.

On the Viscount's treatment of the Qunari Dumar was an appeaser.  He offered the Qunari the space in the Docks in the hopes that it would placate them.  Qunari allowed within the city walls with access to the buying and selling of goods there in are less likely to begin raiding caravans/farms for things they need than a camp of Qunari outside the city without said access.  It might have been smarter to have them camp outside the city since they'd be better able to do something should the Qunari become violent, but preparing for the eventuallity of hostilities could be seen as anact of hostility itself as well as implying that the city government opposes the Qunari lending legitimacy and support to Petrice and her lot.  For someone as terrified of conflict as Dumar was his actions do not require greed as a motivator.

[Lazy Jer]

For reasons I've already gone into. It was far easier to keep track of the potential threat from the small army of armed Qunari within the walls of the city then it was if they were trumping around the wounded coast potentially gearing up for an assault on city walls. There were probably diplomatic reasons as well, I'll admit. An attempt to build up goodwill with the Qunari and make any further dealings with them easier. Fact is there were a number of logical reasons why the Viscount would offer the usage of the compound to the Qunari, and perhaps Qunari gold and/or resources might have played into it. Saying it was just saying it was about greed is less a logical conclusion and more an attempt to paint anything not of the Qun as simply greedy, foolish and corrupt. Not that you've ever had a tendency of doing that, mind, but it could be read that way.

Edit:  Plus the post above mine makes good points as well.

And if the Viscount had turned the Arishok away? The tome was in the city, and it's already been established that the Arishok is a warrior, not a diplomat. What option other then an invasion would be open to him? Wishing really really hard would presumably already been tried.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 23 octobre 2011 - 06:31 .

[blothulfur]

Rather sarcastic Lazy but humorous nonetheless.

I did not say the acquisition of wealth was a harmful thing, striving for betterment has always been a primary responsibility of the Qun so long as that wealth is used to improve the lot of the many, which I am sure it would be.

If taking us within the city walls was a method of containment, it failed, woefully.

If turned away from the city we would have infiltrated at night with Ashaad scouts who are accustomed to going behind enemy lines, come over ill repaired sections of the walls when it suited us or found an abandoned part of the sewer system and make a command centre in darktown. One assumes however that a small number would have been allowed in to trade and suchlike even if the city was closed to the full company so none of the above would probably be needed.