139 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

Terror_K wrote...

I can't believe people actually think this is a GOOD thing.

Actually... I can, given the way gamers and the gaming industry are lately. It just seems like another case of classes being watered down and becoming less unique and defined and more samey by allowing players too much freedom where there should be restriction and visa versa.

Eh, it's more class diversity than anything else.  If you want to roll a shotgun Adept from the start, then why not?  It's putting the control into the hands of the players, which is a good thing, at least in this case.  You will have the freedom to take only one gun, will you not?  You can limit yourself and your class as you see fit.  Or you can explore the options available to you... at a penalty for any class besides a Soldier.  Perhaps it will be easier to discuss whether or not classes have lost their unique flavor when we know more about this penalty.

[Terror_K]

lazuli wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

I can't believe people actually think this is a GOOD thing.

Actually... I can, given the way gamers and the gaming industry are lately. It just seems like another case of classes being watered down and becoming less unique and defined and more samey by allowing players too much freedom where there should be restriction and visa versa.

Eh, it's more class diversity than anything else.  If you want to roll a shotgun Adept from the start, then why not?  It's putting the control into the hands of the players, which is a good thing, at least in this case.  You will have the freedom to take only one gun, will you not?  You can limit yourself and your class as you see fit.  Or you can explore the options available to you... at a penalty for any class besides a Soldier.  Perhaps it will be easier to discuss whether or not classes have lost their unique flavor when we know more about this penalty.

I disagree. class diversity is good, yes, but not when it starts watering down the classes and the aspects that made them unique and defined them get spread across the board. Just like tech classes no longer being needed to hack/decrypt, etc. watered down them, the Soldier and combat-strong classes are being watered down now, while classes such as the Adept are being given too much freedom and options they shouldn't which then in turn makes them too broad and not defined enough. It's the same mentality overall of everybody being able to have their cake and eat it too that's watering down RPGs as a whole: too much freedom resulting in classes being too wishy washy and not well defined enough. Restrictions and limitations are as important to a class as their strengths and abilities in an RPG. This is just another case of the "new game" way of making things too accessible in the wrong areas.

[Ruud333]

@Terror

In both ME 1 and 2 you could outfit your Adept (for example) with a weapon it did not originally have access to. How is this new system all that different? We have been told that if you play as a non-Soldier class there will be penalties if you take all the weapons with you. Therefore an Adept (again as an example) will likely not be overpowered if they take all the weapons with them on a mission.

[alex90c]

Terror_K wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

I can't believe people actually think this is a GOOD thing.

Actually... I can, given the way gamers and the gaming industry are lately. It just seems like another case of classes being watered down and becoming less unique and defined and more samey by allowing players too much freedom where there should be restriction and visa versa.

Eh, it's more class diversity than anything else.  If you want to roll a shotgun Adept from the start, then why not?  It's putting the control into the hands of the players, which is a good thing, at least in this case.  You will have the freedom to take only one gun, will you not?  You can limit yourself and your class as you see fit.  Or you can explore the options available to you... at a penalty for any class besides a Soldier.  Perhaps it will be easier to discuss whether or not classes have lost their unique flavor when we know more about this penalty.

I disagree. class diversity is good, yes, but not when it starts watering down the classes and the aspects that made them unique and defined them get spread across the board. Just like tech classes no longer being needed to hack/decrypt, etc. watered down them, the Soldier and combat-strong classes are being watered down now, while classes such as the Adept are being given too much freedom and options they shouldn't which then in turn makes them too broad and not defined enough. It's the same mentality overall of everybody being able to have their cake and eat it too that's watering down RPGs as a whole: too much freedom resulting in classes being too wishy washy and not well defined enough. Restrictions and limitations are as important to a class as their strengths and abilities in an RPG. This is just another case of the "new game" way of making things too accessible in the wrong areas.

All what Bioware is doing is making it so:

1. we don't have to wait half the game before we can get our favourite weapons
2. they're actually making it possible for us to devise more gameplay strategies; maybe an adept with a shotgun and a sniper rifle strategy?

besides, how did it make any sense that classes were actually forbidden from even using most weapons? why is it that an adept wouldn't have trained in ARs and shotguns, and was forced in to using pistol & smg until half way through the game? I say the classes are plenty defined, adept will always be the caster class, engineers will always be the guys distracting bosses with drones and stripping down defences with their tech, and vanguards will always be the CQC guys. yeah, there are other strategies you as a player can devise, but the classes are all geared to certain play styles, and besides if players want to try a different play style from that, then why stop them?

[NYG1991]

I can't wait to build my top heavy revenant/widow/claymore engineer

[Raizo]

Preston Watamaniuk wrote...

Any class can carry any weapon. The mods available to each weapon type are where they really become differentiated. The SMG is really important now for classes that rely heavily on power gameplay or where heat sink capacity becomes a problem. In fact two mods are available now for SMGs that increase their ability to fire longer and run out of heat sinks less. Every class can carry 5 weapons, BUT there is a really big penalty to doing so if you are playing anything but a Soldier. Generally in my Adept runs I like to take a Tempest and a Carnifex. I leave the bigger guns to Garrus, James and Ashley. In fact I have done entire Adept runs with just a Predator. The balance around the number, type and specific weapons you take is really feeling nice and adding a lot of interesting choice to weapon selection. More to come later. Jarrett had me do an entire BioWare TV episode just on RPG mechanics, which is coming out soon.

I wish they'd be more clear on what exactly this penalty is because so far it just seems like the Soldier class has got severely nerfed. What's the point of playing as a soldier if every other class can equip all 5 of the different weapon types at one time. I play as a Soldier and I only ever use the Heavy Pistol, Assault Rifle and the Sniper Rifle, I have little or no use for anything else, where's my incentive to keep using the Soldier class for ME3 since I will only be using 3 weapon types.

[Someone With Mass]

Say what you want, but I prefer when my Sentinel and Infiltrator can carry shotguns and when the Engineer can pack heavy firepower like the Revenant to make up for the time spent on waiting for the powers to cool down.

The Soldier is not being watered down, since it can carry five weapons without any penalty.

Besides, I've always wanted to try a pistol only playthrough or something like shotguns and pistols only or try out a teammate loadout and see how that works.

[atheelogos]

Preston Watamaniuk wrote...

Any class can carry any weapon. The mods available to each weapon type are where they really become differentiated. The SMG is really important now for classes that rely heavily on power gameplay or where heat sink capacity becomes a problem. In fact two mods are available now for SMGs that increase their ability to fire longer and run out of heat sinks less. Every class can carry 5 weapons, BUT there is a really big penalty to doing so if you are playing anything but a Soldier. Generally in my Adept runs I like to take a Tempest and a Carnifex. I leave the bigger guns to Garrus, James and Ashley. In fact I have done entire Adept runs with just a Predator. The balance around the number, type and specific weapons you take is really feeling nice and adding a lot of interesting choice to weapon selection. More to come later. Jarrett had me do an entire BioWare TV episode just on RPG mechanics, which is coming out soon.

So now we can chooose the number of weapons and leave other spaces empty for other guns we might pick up during a mission? Cool!

I remember you guys saying that the other classes would be locked at 3 guns. Why the change?

[Zkyire]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

run out of heat sinks less...

*scratches head*

Weapon mod that keeps the weapon cooler for longer, so it can ultimately fire more shots per 'clip' meaning you run out of thermal clips less often.

I think.

[DNRB]

So the soldier is useless now, I wonder which class is next... Maybe the infiltrator? Every time you use a sniper with any class, time will slow down? Or cloak protects like tech armour with the right upgrades?
Adrenaline rush is just not enough for the soldier. As an adept you can use every weapon and yes there will be a penalty, but walking slower or powers being less effective for example is just not severe enough. Only being able to use two powers, like the soldier, would be fair. And the argument "it doesn't make sense that other classes can't use an assault rifle or a shotgun" makes no sense. Using that logic, it makes no sense for soldiers to not being able to use every tech power. It doesn't make sense for adepts to not being able to use every tech power. It doesn't make sense for the vanguard and sentinel not being able to cast every biotic and tech power there is. Why not make a class that can use every power and weapon, and a class that does the same, but without biotic powers? We're talking about the most elite soldier in the universe, so why not train him to use everything there is to use in combat?

Right, because it breaks the game. Mass effect is just not like the elder scrolls, where you are able to use every power and weapon. It's totally different, and it should stay that way.

[TobyHasEyes]

BRND wrote...

So the soldier is useless now, I wonder which class is next... Maybe the infiltrator? Every time you use a sniper with any class, time will slow down? Or cloak protects like tech armour with the right upgrades?
Adrenaline rush is just not enough for the soldier. As an adept you can use every weapon and yes there will be a penalty, but walking slower or powers being less effective for example is just not severe enough. Only being able to use two powers, like the soldier, would be fair. And the argument "it doesn't make sense that other classes can't use an assault rifle or a shotgun" makes no sense. Using that logic, it makes no sense for soldiers to not being able to use every tech power. It doesn't make sense for adepts to not being able to use every tech power. It doesn't make sense for the vanguard and sentinel not being able to cast every biotic and tech power there is. Why not make a class that can use every power and weapon, and a class that does the same, but without biotic powers? We're talking about the most elite soldier in the universe, so why not train him to use everything there is to use in combat?

Right, because it breaks the game. Mass effect is just not like the elder scrolls, where you are able to use every power and weapon. It's totally different, and it should stay that way.

 As we don't know what the penalty is, then you have no basis from which to begin condemning the game.. 

[Zkyire]

BRND wrote...

So the soldier is useless now, I wonder which class is next... Maybe the infiltrator? Every time you use a sniper with any class, time will slow down? Or cloak protects like tech armour with the right upgrades?
Adrenaline rush is just not enough for the soldier. As an adept you can use every weapon and yes there will be a penalty, but walking slower or powers being less effective for example is just not severe enough. Only being able to use two powers, like the soldier, would be fair. And the argument "it doesn't make sense that other classes can't use an assault rifle or a shotgun" makes no sense. Using that logic, it makes no sense for soldiers to not being able to use every tech power. It doesn't make sense for adepts to not being able to use every tech power. It doesn't make sense for the vanguard and sentinel not being able to cast every biotic and tech power there is. Why not make a class that can use every power and weapon, and a class that does the same, but without biotic powers? We're talking about the most elite soldier in the universe, so why not train him to use everything there is to use in combat?

Right, because it breaks the game. Mass effect is just not like the elder scrolls, where you are able to use every power and weapon. It's totally different, and it should stay that way.

I take it you're from the future and have already played Mass Effect 3 to completion with all classes?

If so, please continue sharing your future wisdom with the rest of us present-folk.

[ryoldschool]

BRND wrote...

So the soldier is useless now, I wonder which class is next... Maybe the infiltrator? Every time you use a sniper with any class, time will slow down? Or cloak protects like tech armour with the right upgrades?
Adrenaline rush is just not enough for the soldier. As an adept you can use every weapon and yes there will be a penalty, but walking slower or powers being less effective for example is just not severe enough. Only being able to use two powers, like the soldier, would be fair. And the argument "it doesn't make sense that other classes can't use an assault rifle or a shotgun" makes no sense. Using that logic, it makes no sense for soldiers to not being able to use every tech power. It doesn't make sense for adepts to not being able to use every tech power. It doesn't make sense for the vanguard and sentinel not being able to cast every biotic and tech power there is. Why not make a class that can use every power and weapon, and a class that does the same, but without biotic powers? We're talking about the most elite soldier in the universe, so why not train him to use everything there is to use in combat?

Right, because it breaks the game. Mass effect is just not like the elder scrolls, where you are able to use every power and weapon. It's totally different, and it should stay that way.

I think, rightly so, that this guy is concerned because we don't have any idea what the penalty is.  Maybe bioware has not defined it yet.  You can't make any inferences about gameplay until you know what the heck it is.

[Someone With Mass]

The Soldier still has grenades and class exclusive passive powers to use.

It's not like the Soldier was radically different from the other classes to begin with.

[Kasai666]

I agree.

[lazuli]

Terror_K wrote...
I disagree. class diversity is good, yes, but not when it starts watering down the classes and the aspects that made them unique and defined them get spread across the board. Just like tech classes no longer being needed to hack/decrypt, etc. watered down them, the Soldier and combat-strong classes are being watered down now, while classes such as the Adept are being given too much freedom and options they shouldn't which then in turn makes them too broad and not defined enough. It's the same mentality overall of everybody being able to have their cake and eat it too that's watering down RPGs as a whole: too much freedom resulting in classes being too wishy washy and not well defined enough. Restrictions and limitations are as important to a class as their strengths and abilities in an RPG. This is just another case of the "new game" way of making things too accessible in the wrong areas.

This is just another example of humanity's inherent fear of change.

In all seriousness, Bioware shifted away from differentiating classes outside of combat in ME2.  It's not by definition a better or worse system, it's just different.  I have confidence that classes will feel different enough from one another in combat.  With increased build and weapon flexibility, it is likely that some lines will blur, though.

[The Spamming Troll]

Terror_K wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

I can't believe people actually think this is a GOOD thing.

Actually... I can, given the way gamers and the gaming industry are lately. It just seems like another case of classes being watered down and becoming less unique and defined and more samey by allowing players too much freedom where there should be restriction and visa versa.

Eh, it's more class diversity than anything else.  If you want to roll a shotgun Adept from the start, then why not?  It's putting the control into the hands of the players, which is a good thing, at least in this case.  You will have the freedom to take only one gun, will you not?  You can limit yourself and your class as you see fit.  Or you can explore the options available to you... at a penalty for any class besides a Soldier.  Perhaps it will be easier to discuss whether or not classes have lost their unique flavor when we know more about this penalty.

I disagree. class diversity is good, yes, but not when it starts watering down the classes and the aspects that made them unique and defined them get spread across the board. Just like tech classes no longer being needed to hack/decrypt, etc. watered down them, the Soldier and combat-strong classes are being watered down now, while classes such as the Adept are being given too much freedom and options they shouldn't which then in turn makes them too broad and not defined enough. It's the same mentality overall of everybody being able to have their cake and eat it too that's watering down RPGs as a whole: too much freedom resulting in classes being too wishy washy and not well defined enough. Restrictions and limitations are as important to a class as their strengths and abilities in an RPG. This is just another case of the "new game" way of making things too accessible in the wrong areas.

no way terror. this is an awesome thing to happen to all the classes, except maybe the sodleir depending on the gimping of of other classes for taking too many weapons. the choice in how you play your character is made better because we can use any weapon. a vangaurd startign with the shotgun is a restriction just as much as pull requires 3 points in throw.

i wish the classes had as much choice in their abilities as they have with their weapons. id actually like it to go a little further. i want as much freedom in choice of abilities as i have in choice of weapons. tak ehte adept for example. id love to make a  pull, warp, singularity, stasis, warp ammo, and barrier adept. but i cant. because bioware didnt think an "adept" used anytihng other then singularity warp and a few redundant powers. maybe you want to make a vangaurd with dominate, reave, and slam too. you could match up your abilities in the same way you can match up your weapons. thats really how building your character should go.

this is a good thing terror! mucho good.

i wouldnt mind a classless ME too. my bother didnt get past "picking a class" when i showed him ME1, becasue he thought it was just dumb he had to pick a class. i bet more people will be happy with the classes they pick because they can get what they wanted out of the class, not what some developers thought they should get.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:25 .

[JeffZero]

With all due respect Terror, how often do you say much of anything particularly nice about anything in ME2 and now ME3? I can see where you're coming from but you might want to step back, read some of these responses and re-evaluate your stance.

/shrug If you still feel that way afterward, fair enough. It just seems like nothing the developers can do in any game not called ME1 satisfies you... pretty much ever.

[Gabriel S.]

Preston Watamaniuk wrote...

Any class can carry any weapon.[...]Every class can carry 5 weapons, BUT there is a really big penalty to doing so if you are playing anything but a Soldier. Generally in my Adept runs I like to take a Tempest and a Carnifex.[...]

So I could finally have that definitive experience of carrying only an assault rifle and a pistol? Oh, HELL YEAH!

[Preston Watamaniuk]

My take on the Soldier is that with the new system he feels more balanced but cool because he can carry an assortment of really awesome firepower. For the power classes you can take a Katana Shotgun and have it feel balanced. Now if an Adept wants to lug around a Claymore etc then the pain train does pull into the station. However the choice is yours and their are passive powers that allow you to offset the penalties to a greater and lesser extent depending on class.

[lazuli]

Preston Watamaniuk wrote...

My take on the Soldier is that with the new system he feels more balanced but cool because he can carry an assortment of really awesome firepower. For the power classes you can take a Katana Shotgun and have it feel balanced. Now if an Adept wants to lug around a Claymore etc then the pain train does pull into the station. However the choice is yours and their are passive powers that allow you to offset the penalties to a greater and lesser extent depending on class.

Fitness?

[JeffZero]

Preston Watamaniuk wrote...

My take on the Soldier is that with the new system he feels more balanced but cool because he can carry an assortment of really awesome firepower. For the power classes you can take a Katana Shotgun and have it feel balanced. Now if an Adept wants to lug around a Claymore etc then the pain train does pull into the station. However the choice is yours and their are passive powers that allow you to offset the penalties to a greater and lesser extent depending on class.

Sounds good to me. Nice info there on passive powers, thanks. 

[ryoldschool]

Preston Watamaniuk wrote...

My take on the Soldier is that with the new system he feels more balanced but cool because he can carry an assortment of really awesome firepower. For the power classes you can take a Katana Shotgun and have it feel balanced. Now if an Adept wants to lug around a Claymore etc then the pain train does pull into the station. However the choice is yours and their are passive powers that allow you to offset the penalties to a greater and lesser extent depending on class.

So, are you going to tell us what the penalty is ( for non-soldiers using a claymore for example )?

[Recon911PDW]

SMG's have always been my favorite and now we can finally use them for soldier class in ME3. I wonder why the soldier class on ME2 could not use them, I mean it is a soldier class after all and was suppose to be able to use all types of weapons. Yea I know, "What's the point of having an SMG when you can have an assault rifle?" The point is, some people prefer SMG's over assault rifles and they can be as effective as assualt rifles in certain situations.

[Janus Prospero]

Preston Watamaniuk wrote...

My take on the Soldier is that with the new system he feels more balanced but cool because he can carry an assortment of really awesome firepower. For the power classes you can take a Katana Shotgun and have it feel balanced. Now if an Adept wants to lug around a Claymore etc then the pain train does pull into the station. However the choice is yours and their are passive powers that allow you to offset the penalties to a greater and lesser extent depending on class.

Interesting. So do the super weapons like the Revenant, Claymore, and Widow take up "2 weapon slots" in this system? That would explain why a Soldier can't carry around all three without getting hit with a penalty.

Modifié par Janus Prospero, 23 octobre 2011 - 07:04 .