201 réponses à ce sujet

[Huntress]

I do not know who kasumi is.. To me the DLC is unique and I like it very much. The legacy DLC was just as good if not better.

The best part of this is the dlc's make me feel far away from kirkwall!!!* ( in my mind*) lol!

[Tempest_]

Zanallen wrote...

Um, to be honest, all heist stories are going to be largely the same. There is nothing new in this world and all characters can be broken down into various archetypes.

I agree with this. Its not like the Kasumi DLC was the first thing to ever adopt this narrative structure.

Modifié par Quote the Raven, 22 octobre 2011 - 08:44 .

[jamesp81]

Sutekh wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

I should try and find that bioware story chart it was very interesting to look at actually seeing how many times bioware has used themes from their previous game. For example almost all the main characters in bioware games are "special" people.

As opposed to the vast majority of heroes in stories-with-heroes-in-them that have been written and told since the beginning of stories-with-heroes-in-them?

Seriously, from the Illiad to Harry Potter, via Hamlet or Elric of Melniboné all the same old, same old special people. All with an extra something compared to ordinary people from their own settings. Bioware writers are doing nothing else than what Homer was doing by making all his heroes demi-gods and such, i.e. greater than life, from the beginning. 

AlexXIV wrote...
Warden is not special until becomming Warden, Shepard is not special, Hawke isn't special.

Actually, all Wardens have a little extra, pre-Wardening:

- Aeducan is prince, and given a commandment that should've gone to his elder brother
- The castless (can't remember their name) is a better fighter than trained nobles
- Surana and Amell are the best apprentice in the tower
- Tabris is the only elf in the Alienage to have some combat skill, learned from their badass mother
- Cousland is considered the next Teyrn, again before their brother
- Mahariel is the best hunter of their clan

There's a reason why Duncan comes for most of them specifically. 

They follow the recipe mentioned above, and, IMO, that's a good thing for an epic.

Cousland is also noted for being a particularly skilled fighter as well, although he/she I think is untested in real combat until Howe's treachery.  It seems that way, as Cousland's prowess is noted for tournament wins.

[txgoldrush]

jamesp81 wrote...

Oh for God's sakes, here we go again.

There is nothing new under the sun in literature. Heist stories have been around for ages, and they all tend to have similar plotlines. I could just as easily say MotA ripped off James Bond.

What defines good writing isn't originality, for there is NOTHING that is original anymore. Every story has been told many times over. What defines good writing is establishing a good setting, good characters, and a good plot arc. MotA did that.

Here we go again....

I am not knocking Bioware for reusing a common archtype....

I am knocking them for basically REHASHING THE SAME STORY OF THEIR OWN PAST WORK!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriouly, its completely and utterly lazy, and this DLC is so blantantly obvious.

Good writers try many different things. Take Cormac McCarthy's The Road......way different from his other books, but also one of his most acclaimed. Hell, Chris Avellone doesn't recycle plots of his past work. Planescape Torment is far different from KOTOR II and Mask Of the Betrayer.

Recycling your own work is lazy plain and simple. MoTA is extremely blantantly obvious.

[Spartansfan8888]

Oh c'mon it will all be fine when you give someone their grandfather's bow in DA3

[txgoldrush]

Quote the Raven wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Um, to be honest, all heist stories are going to be largely the same. There is nothing new in this world and all characters can be broken down into various archetypes.

I agree with this. Its not like the Kasumi DLC was the first thing to ever adopt this narrative structure.

Thats not the point, the point is that Bioware rippped off their own work and recycled much of the plot for DAII. The fact is that MoTA did not EVEN NEED A HEIST. It was not necessary.

Its alarming how Bioware fans can defend Bioware recycling their characters and plots saying they are just "archtypes". Using archtypes isn't the problem here....its reusing the same ones over and over and over just because it worked in the past.

Bioware is becoming more like the Final Fantasy team, rehashing their plots over and over again. Hell, SE cannot stop rehashing FFVI over and over........lets see, a disgruntled merc or former solider or a lovable rogue must stop an evil organization or kingdom, which then comes a nihilist (either pulling their strings or born form their actions) who wants to destroy everything. Same plot over and over and over again.

Look at Ultima, while the series has a commom element in the Avatar and the virtues, with the same companions returning...each plot is entirely different and each game has a much different theme or feel. Hell, some lacked a main anatagonist as a character. Hell both parts of Ultima VII have vastly different plotlines.

Why can't Bioware do the same? DAII was a good first step, even though the execution was flawed due to the need to rush the game.

[themonty72]

MG800 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well Kasumi DLC was very successful, so what do you expect? What bothers me more is introducing new characters or stuff that alters the main story. Like they did in LotSB, Kasumi, Zaheed, Witch Hunt, etc.

So who really cares if they copied it, it's not like original stories are better by default.

^ Not to mention, that not every DA fan played Mass Effect, or brought Kasumi DLC.

Well I was one of those DA fan who never thought about Mass Effect but when I bought Mass Effect 2 it s was one the best games I ever played blows DA2 out the water. Better characters,story ,graphics and everything else.

[Morroian]

txgoldrush wrote...

Seriously,. what the hell is with Kasumi: Stolen Mark of the Assaasin......starring Tallis.

New DLC is okay, Legacy is better and more essential. Felicia Day did a great job as Tallis. But here is the drawback of the new DLC...

It completely RIPS off ME2's DLC when it comes to story.

No it doesn't, apart from both being heist stories they are both completely different.

[txgoldrush]

Morroian wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Seriously,. what the hell is with Kasumi: Stolen Mark of the Assaasin......starring Tallis.

New DLC is okay, Legacy is better and more essential. Felicia Day did a great job as Tallis. But here is the drawback of the new DLC...

It completely RIPS off ME2's DLC when it comes to story.

No it doesn't, apart from both being heist stories they are both completely different.

So the fact that a female rogue "genki" type character headlines the DLC, that the heist takes place at a party, or the fact that the bad guy knows its going down because of seeing Kasumi/Tallis as supsicious and entraps them, or that the object they seek is dangerous in the wrong hands....completely different? Lol

The only real difference is that Tallis lied about the item and its another she seeks, the list of names of Qunari converts (as well as the Qunari traitor).

Quit defending the undefensable. Its rips it off enough.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 23 octobre 2011 - 07:34 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Mei Mei wrote...

But... but... its Felicia Day.

Who is this "Felicia Day" and why should I care about her?

[Morroian]

txgoldrush wrote...

So the fact that a female rogue "genki" type character headlines the DLC, that the heist takes place at a party, or the fact that the bad guy knows its going down because of seeing Kasumi/Tallis as supsicious and entraps them, or that the object they seek is dangerous in the wrong hands....completely different? Lol

You can be reductive about almost any 2 stories, I've played both, they feel like 2 different stories to me. You come across like you either haven't actually played MOTA or you're simply not looking below some surface similarities.

Modifié par Morroian, 23 octobre 2011 - 10:23 .

[Gabey5]

it is indeed the same.

[PantheraOnca]

tx, i'm pretty sure you're getting upset over a non-issue. are there similarities? yes.

how much did the kasumi DLC illuminate orlesian culture or the qunari? were there many wyverns in the kasumi DLC? was leliana a cameo character? did you get to speak with seneschal(sp) bran or ban teagan?

sure some superficial structure is the same, but the particulars are different.

you're line of reasoning would imply that all humans are identical. granted all humans have a lot in common, but there are also many, many, many differences.

[bleetman]

I must've missed the part of Kasumi's dlc where she revealed that, in actuality, her motivation for requesting Shepard's assistance and the nature of the task in the first place were a fabrication, and in reality she's not there to steal anything, but to pursue a rogue member of her particular all dominating militant-religion who's on the verge of selling secrets to their enemies.

Possibly because it never actually happened. Hrmm.

[jlb524]

txgoldrush wrote...

Quit defending the undefensable. Its rips it off enough.

Who's to say what's enough and not enough?

It's subjective.

[csfteeeer]

PantheraOnca wrote...
how much did the kasumi DLC illuminate orlesian culture or the qunari? were there many wyverns in the kasumi DLC? was leliana a cameo character? did you get to speak with seneschal(sp) bran or ban teagan?
.

No, THOSE elements are Superficial.

By that logic, we could EVERY SINGLE STORY on the Planet is different to one another, because "Pfffff, THERE ON A Different Setting, so they're different", which is Bull****.

Of course there aren't Wyverns in the Kasumi DLC, THERE ARE NO WYVERNS IN THE MASS EFFECT UNIVERSE.
Of Course The Kasumi DLC doesn't illuminate Orlesian Culture, THERE ARE NO ORLESIANS IN THE MASS EFFECT UNIVERSE.

And the fact of the matter is, you still have to recruit someone new for the DLC, you still have to Make a Heist, etc...

[Mr.House]

People who say MoA wast he same as Kasumi either
1: Never played it
2: Just want to hate on DA2 no matter what
3: Are trolls
4: Are blind

The only thing that is similar between the two is it's a heist and there is a party...that's about 95% of the heist stories out there.Even then, the object Hawke and Tallis are after is nothing like the Graybox nor is the party like the one in Kasumi. Haters will hate.

Modifié par Mr.House, 24 octobre 2011 - 12:02 .

[Mr.House]

csfteeeer wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...
how much did the kasumi DLC illuminate orlesian culture or the qunari? were there many wyverns in the kasumi DLC? was leliana a cameo character? did you get to speak with seneschal(sp) bran or ban teagan?
.

No, THOSE elements are Superficial.

By that logic, we could EVERY SINGLE STORY on the Planet is different to one another, because "Pfffff, THERE ON A Different Setting, so they're different", which is Bull****.

Of course there aren't Wyverns in the Kasumi DLC, THERE ARE NO WYVERNS IN THE MASS EFFECT UNIVERSE.
Of Course The Kasumi DLC doesn't illuminate Orlesian Culture, THERE ARE NO ORLESIANS IN THE MASS EFFECT UNIVERSE.

And the fact of the matter is, you still have to recruit someone new for the DLC, you still have to Make a Heist, etc...

There was first no hunting game, which is about one hour of the dlc. Then tehre is the party which is also nothing like the part in Kasumi. Then we have the sneaking in, which you can sneak and not kill or go in and slash to hell, in Kasumi you could not do that. You had two party members with you instead of just two people. The treasure you are after is nothing like the Graybox and the last leg of the dlc is completely diffrent then Kasumi. You would know this if you where not so jacked up on DA2 hate.

Modifié par Mr.House, 24 octobre 2011 - 12:06 .

[PantheraOnca]

csfteeeer wrote...

No, THOSE elements are Superficial.

By that logic, we could EVERY SINGLE STORY on the Planet is different to one another, because "Pfffff, THERE ON A Different Setting, so they're different", which is Bull****.

Of course there aren't Wyverns in the Kasumi DLC, THERE ARE NO WYVERNS IN THE MASS EFFECT UNIVERSE.
Of Course The Kasumi DLC doesn't illuminate Orlesian Culture, THERE ARE NO ORLESIANS IN THE MASS EFFECT UNIVERSE.

And the fact of the matter is, you still have to recruit someone new for the DLC, you still have to Make a Heist, etc...

I was being a little facetious with some of those statements, but the fact that some things in the MotA story are completely and totally absent from the Kasumi DLC, and vice versa, seem to indicate that there are at least a few substantive differences.

So now we have to find out what makes one story different from another. How many similarities can they have? Do the types of similarities matter? If so, why? If not, why not? Do specific things need to be different? Which ones? Why those?

I don't have an itemized list of my own answers to these questions, but whatever system I do use to judge such things, there are enough differences, or few enough similarities, for me to call them different stories.

[Zjarcal]

Mr.House wrote...

There was first no hunting game, which is about one hour of the dlc. Then tehre is the party which is also nothing like the part in Kasumi. Then we have the sneaking in, which you can sneak and not kill or go in and slash to hell, in Kasumi you could not do that. You had two party members with you instead of just two people. The treasure you are after is nothing like the Graybox and the last leg of the dlc is completely diffrent then Kasumi. You would know this if you where not so jacked up on DA2 hate.

And don't forget how the premise of why Kasumi wants to retrieve the graybox is completely different than what Tallis wants. Kasumi is doing this for the sake of keeping the memories of her loved one, Tallis wants to protect the Qunari.

Why yes, I can see how they are identical now... I was so blind before! 

[Mr.House]

Zjarcal wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

There was first no hunting game, which is about one hour of the dlc. Then tehre is the party which is also nothing like the part in Kasumi. Then we have the sneaking in, which you can sneak and not kill or go in and slash to hell, in Kasumi you could not do that. You had two party members with you instead of just two people. The treasure you are after is nothing like the Graybox and the last leg of the dlc is completely diffrent then Kasumi. You would know this if you where not so jacked up on DA2 hate.

And don't forget how the premise of why Kasumi wants to retrieve the graybox is completely different than what Tallis wants. Kasumi is doing this for the sake of keeping the memories of her loved one, Tallis wants to protect the Qunari.

Why yes, I can see how they are identical now... I was so blind before! 

:happy:

[ydaraishy]

Yeah, trying to bait that wyvern to get into Kasumi's party in ME2 was totally awesome, oops I mean, bait that gunship... err...

[Mr.House]

ydaraishy wrote...

Yeah, trying to bait that wyvern to get into Kasumi's party in ME2 was totally awesome, oops I mean, bait that gunship... err...

[bleetman]

csfteeeer wrote...

And the fact of the matter is, you still have to recruit someone new for the DLC, you still have to Make a Heist, etc...

Except that the heist isn't a heist, it's an excuse to dupe Hawke into helping Tallis get inside the estate for her own seperate reasons. Hawke isn't there to steal things, s/he's there to be tricked into thinking s/he's there to steal things.

Kind of an important detail, really.