201 réponses à ce sujet

[seraphymon]

DA2 concept and rushedness did alot of damage, but i feel there would still be a lot of negativity because some of the changes they made that was regardless of time restraint.  All your saying is what i say, but its how you weight the risks.

Modifié par seraphymon, 24 octobre 2011 - 05:54 .

[Raging Nug]

lol @ Seraphy's inception quotations.

As far as recycling goes, we could go so far as to say that most fantasy stories borrow from The Hero's Journey. Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Dragon Age all carry that in common. What matters is that it's so integral to storytelling that it doesn't detract from the plot in any significant way.

[AmstradHero]

csfteeeer wrote...
-The Final assault involves killing said Villain for a Boss Battle.

i lol whenever people say they are not similar and call others trolls.

****ing Fanboys.

OMG, all games that have a boss battle at the end with the villain are the same! Man, that totally proves wrong the claims of all the fanbois who argue that Dragon Age is not identical to Portal 2, MotA, Gears of War, Diablo, Prince of Persia...

In fact, I used this same idea for a game years ago. I should take out a patent on that idea and start litigation against anyone who decides to use that in a game. I'd be a multi-trillionaire!

If you simplify stories enough, you can claim that there are about 5 original tales in the entire history of the world. I lol whenever people make ridiculous claims... well, after I've facepalmed and lamented for the loss of intelligence of the human race, that is.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 24 octobre 2011 - 06:27 .

[txgoldrush]

Raging Nug wrote...

lol @ Seraphy's inception quotations.

As far as recycling goes, we could go so far as to say that most fantasy stories borrow from The Hero's Journey. Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Dragon Age all carry that in common. What matters is that it's so integral to storytelling that it doesn't detract from the plot in any significant way.

However a company that does a story for the first time, such as a hiest, which is fresh and new for that company. Yes, there is plenty of heist movies and stories in the past (hell, Kasumi's achievement was a reference to one of them), but Bioware when they did it was fresh because they have not done that plotline before.

But now they reuse the premise of that very same story in another universe, its no longer fresh because that company did the EXACT same setup before.

Seems lazy.

Bioware fans just do not like to admit that Bioware does recycle its plots or their quests. Until DAO's release, I was in denial as well. But then I saw DAO recycle the same exact plot elements and character archtypes from their past games. Then that infamous Hellforge chart came out. Hell look at KOTOR and Jade Empire, both have you infiltrate the bad guys training academy!!! Thats recycling.

ME2 and DAII look promising in that they broke Bioware formula, but it looks that ME3 will rehash DAO's story (which I do think is unavoidable to be fair, at least do not make the same mistake DAO did and have the racial quests actually connect strongly to the main plot elements, so far so good).

DAIII and Jade Empire II however should be different from past Bioware games and have different plots than their sequels.

Also Hero's Journeys are broad.......they do not have to be told the same exact way and they can subvert themselves. In fact, Star Wars does that with Anakin Skywalker. And DAO and DAII are both hero jpurneys, but DAII has a far different take on the hero than conventional DAO does. A story can be a heroes journey AND be different and more unique.

[seraphymon]

txgoldrush wrote...

Raging Nug wrote...

lol @ Seraphy's inception quotations.

As far as recycling goes, we could go so far as to say that most fantasy stories borrow from The Hero's Journey. Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Dragon Age all carry that in common. What matters is that it's so integral to storytelling that it doesn't detract from the plot in any significant way.

However a company that does a story for the first time, such as a hiest, which is fresh and new for that company. Yes, there is plenty of heist movies and stories in the past (hell, Kasumi's achievement was a reference to one of them), but Bioware when they did it was fresh because they have not done that plotline before.

But now they reuse the premise of that very same story in another universe, its no longer fresh because that company did the EXACT same setup before.

Seems lazy.

Bioware fans just do not like to admit that Bioware does recycle its plots or their quests. Until DAO's release, I was in denial as well. But then I saw DAO recycle the same exact plot elements and character archtypes from their past games. Then that infamous Hellforge chart came out. Hell look at KOTOR and Jade Empire, both have you infiltrate the bad guys training academy!!! Thats recycling.

ME2 and DAII look promising in that they broke Bioware formula, but it looks that ME3 will rehash DAO's story (which I do think is unavoidable to be fair, at least do not make the same mistake DAO did and have the racial quests actually connect strongly to the main plot elements, so far so good).

DAIII and Jade Empire II however should be different from past Bioware games and have different plots than their sequels.

Also Hero's Journeys are broad.......they do not have to be told the same exact way and they can subvert themselves. In fact, Star Wars does that with Anakin Skywalker. And DAO and DAII are both hero jpurneys, but DAII has a far different take on the hero than conventional DAO does. A story can be a heroes journey AND be different and more unique.

No one is denial here. We are not going against or denying the fact of reuse or rehash, or recycle stories or situations. We just dont happen to care like you do.

Also it doesnt matter if its done within the same company or it is new for them but already done. Its done before its done before same thing. Only thing is one company might do it in a worse way, which is exactly what Bioware has been doing lately. an example is like the stealth concept in MOTA, it was an expirement, and of course just a DLC thing, but other companies can do this soo much better.

Your right that heros journeys are broad and dont have to be told the same way. But again it all comes down to execution. Had DA2 been given unlitmited time, id most likely still find the story of DAO much better, but thats just my opinion.

[AmstradHero]

David Gaider stated that he hasn't played Stolen Memory, so accusing him of copying its story is a little ridiculous. That said, I had expected him to have played it. A developer can't play all the games out there, but I have an expectation that they will play games/DLC released by their own company.  The BioWare logo has a reputation for originality, and I do have a (perhaps unreasonable) expectation that the developer (at least those in leading positions) would be aware of details of the major releases for their brand to avoid any potential claims like this.

As for this "BioWare copies its own material" argument that comes up on every now and then, I find it a bit ridiculous that (a) this occurs to such an extent, and that ( BioWare is the only company that seems to cop this abuse. There are plenty of game companies that churn out equally (if not more) derivative plots that are far simpler that don't suffer the same amount of criticism.

This isn't blatant fanboy talk from me - I like BioWare, but I'm more than happy to call them on their faults, and I have done so on numerous occasions. Check my blog if you want proof. However, there is certainly a substantial amount of simplification and generalisation that goes on with the claims of "all BioWare games have the same plot" and "BioWare has only a handful of characters".

Taking the character archetypes example - Mission Vao, Liara and Leliana are classified as a "Naive Minx", when there are massive differences between their characters. Mission is naive, but she's street savvy and knows her way around the back alleys and low places. Liara is a naive bookish type, filled with social insecurities but confidence about her research. Leliana... well, she's somewhat naive in how she came to be betrayed, but she's still a trained thief, liar, assassin and generally capable of doing bad things, but decided to turn over a new leaf to follow her religious beliefs.  These are hardly "all the same character" as critics would have you believe.  Similar rebuttals can be easily delivered for many equivalent claims.

This is not to say that BioWare are 100% original 100% of the time. They're most certainly not.  It is, however, obvious that anyone who makes claims about the repetitious nature of BioWare's plots and characters is doing an analysis merely at a superficial level. That kind of criticism doesn't hold up to any serious scrutiny.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:29 .

[Apollo Starflare]

The only bit that really reminded me of Kasumi's SM was the courtyard mingling scene, and even that was very different in execution.

The heist scenario is a popular one that can play out in a number of different ways - and the way it played out in MotA was very different to SM. All that results in making this whole argument feel incredibly OTT to me. Certainly in regards to those bits of DLC anyway; and considering BioWare have made great strides to diversify the way the main plot unfolds in their games recently (despite it being a gamble that has had mixed results) I think it's kinda funny to pick them up on this.

[Gadaire17]

The thing that gets me is that every game has some sort of recycled "theme" or "character personalities." Not only is MoTA and Stolen Memory completely different in both background, and purpose, but the only similar thing is that it is a heist. both games have good stories (although DAII was dissapointing compared to the first) so what does it matter if they have the same "theme."

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

I've never played Stolen Memory and don't know much about it beyond the fact it involves Kasumi and a heist. If there are similarities between it and MotA, I'm not certain why I or anyone else should care so long as the tales are enjoyable.

To be honest, I think many people forget that not everyone has played both Mass Effect series and Dragon Age. Sure, I can understand that on these forums full of Bioware fans that many people do play and enjoy both series, but many posts I've seen on these boards just seem to make that assumption.

I don't care one whit that MotA plot is somewhat similar to an ME DLC. I don't play ME, I don't have a very large interest in space games overall.

[AlexXIV]

Being creative doesn't mean to invent the wheel new. Songwriters don't invent music either. They take what someone invented before them. Next you will say that writing stories in english is recycling because they used a language that already exists.

[AlexXIV]

nightscrawl wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I've never played Stolen Memory and don't know much about it beyond the fact it involves Kasumi and a heist. If there are similarities between it and MotA, I'm not certain why I or anyone else should care so long as the tales are enjoyable.

To be honest, I think many people forget that not everyone has played both Mass Effect series and Dragon Age. Sure, I can understand that on these forums full of Bioware fans that many people do play and enjoy both series, but many posts I've seen on these boards just seem to make that assumption.

I don't care one whit that MotA plot is somewhat similar to an ME DLC. I don't play ME, I don't have a very large interest in space games overall.

We don't forget it, we just think the opinion of people who didn't play ME1/2 doesn't count. Just kidding. Or not. Maybe.

[WhiteKnyght]

David Gaider wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Could someone give me the entire gist of this Kasumi DLC beyond "It's a heist where you infiltrate a party for something!"? Spoilers and everything is what I'd like.

Because something tells me that if you look beyond the very superficial similarities of "It's a heist" the two DLCs are radically different.

Some people really like to take stories/characters with similarities, ignore everything that makes them different, and then declare them too similar as if that kind of reduction was in and of itself a profound observation.

I've never played Stolen Memory and don't know much about it beyond the fact it involves Kasumi and a heist. If there are similarities between it and MotA, I'm not certain why I or anyone else should care so long as the tales are enjoyable.

Shame how so many people forget that creative writing has been going on for thousands of years and that just about any kind of plot point one might think of has likely been done before in some way. All you can hope to do is write as well as you can.

[RedWulfi]

I noticed at some points yeah. But tbh I don't care. I enjoyed it in the end.

[TheAwesomologist]

They are similar enough. I mean it certainly is easy to draw a line from Kasumi to Tallis. Unlike some folks here I actually liked Kasumi's mission/story far better than Felicia Day's fangirl romp through Thedas. But then again if I were a D-list celebrity and Bioware asked me to be in a game I'm sure it would just be a fanboy romp as well (only with more awesome because it would have Garrus... Don't judge me...).

Mark of the Assassin was longer than Kasumi: Stolen Memory and it has more to offer DA2 than K:SM offered ME2. But that's also because ME2 was a far better game from start to finish than DA2 will ever be. I'm glad DA2 has released 2 solid DLC's that actually improve the game (they do really). But MotA isn't as good as Legacy.

Legacy had a stronger tie to the main campaign (more on the Hawke family story) while also tying in some of the stronger DA elements; Tevinter mages, the black city, Darkspawn, and the Grey Wardens. MotA just gave us Orlesians, random crap on the Qunari that I could careless about, and some cameos (Why was Leliana even there? Why couldn't Hawke recruit her? She's far less annoying than Tallis). What MotA did have was an interesting alternative section for stealthing and some fun boss fights, but Legacy also had some fun puzzles and boss fights too.

For those of you complaining that people shouldn't compare two games by the same company, stop it. Especially if you haven't played ME2. You should go play ME2, like right now. It's a better game in every way, shape, and form than DA2 could ever hope to be and I'm saying that as a fantasy guy myself who prefers sword and spell over guns and alien powers.

[macrocarl]

Um, so the thief looking for a heist thing is the same in both DLC's. They both had parties, they both had sneaking around parties?.....
There was no hunt in Kasumi. I can't remember, did Kasumi have secret reasons for the heist or was she straight up about it? Hmmmm, they both have fighting? I guess it's the heist thing that's getting the OP's goat.
Pretty much everything else is different. Oof my favorites in 'Firefly' episodes used cutwe rogue, heist, alt reason with a twist for heist in the first place. Remeber that show?
But again, as much as there were similarities there were many differences. Hardly recycled!

[cihimi]

This thread is recycled!

[happy_daiz]

I don't even have to read this thread to know that I have already read it.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:50 .

[PantheraOnca]

AlexXIV wrote...
Next you will say that writing stories in english is recycling because they used a language that already exists.

345ghsdf 356sd 34fd<  78tfg 65eghdf<

(for those of you noobs who can't read my original, never used before, never to be used again awesome, never recycled language, that says "OMG ur such a biter! write in a new language loser!)



...
(p.s. don't take that seriously)

[John Epler]

I will point out that aggressive posting and 'circumventing' the profanity filter by using asterisks are both unacceptable forum posting behaviours. So, you know. Don't do it, or you'll get banned.

[Merci357]

David Gaider wrote...

Some people really like to take stories/characters with similarities, ignore everything that makes them different, and then declare them too similar as if that kind of reduction was in and of itself a profound observation.

I've never played Stolen Memory and don't know much about it beyond the fact it involves Kasumi and a heist. If there are similarities between it and MotA, I'm not certain why I or anyone else should care so long as the tales are enjoyable.

Not that I disagree here, both Stolen Memory and MotA were indeed enjoyable, and besides sharing a heist theme they didn't have many similarities, but...

Shouldn't it be almost required, as a writer, to have intimate knowledge about the offerings of your own company? Just to see what worked well/not so well for the other team(s), give unbiased inhouse feedback, and especially to avoid reusing, say, the same plot twist again. Wouldn't be the first time two people have the same idea completely unrelated of each other.

[txgoldrush]

AlexXIV wrote...

Being creative doesn't mean to invent the wheel new. Songwriters don't invent music either. They take what someone invented before them. Next you will say that writing stories in english is recycling because they used a language that already exists.

Songerwriters that continue to rehash their own material are criticized. If they keep making the same album and never grow, they become dull and uninteresting. Hardcore fanbases may like it, but the artist will never grow.

Hell, what if The Clash kept doing just straight up punk albums and not have done London Calling? Music would be far different than it is now and The Clash would not be legends. Yes, London Calling took other genres and obviosuly had past influences (such as jazz, soul, reggae, rockabilly), and teh cover is very similiar to an Elvis album, but the album was put together in a way that is different and influential, especially tying punk music and those above genres together.

[txgoldrush]

AlexXIV wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I've never played Stolen Memory and don't know much about it beyond the fact it involves Kasumi and a heist. If there are similarities between it and MotA, I'm not certain why I or anyone else should care so long as the tales are enjoyable.

To be honest, I think many people forget that not everyone has played both Mass Effect series and Dragon Age. Sure, I can understand that on these forums full of Bioware fans that many people do play and enjoy both series, but many posts I've seen on these boards just seem to make that assumption.

I don't care one whit that MotA plot is somewhat similar to an ME DLC. I don't play ME, I don't have a very large interest in space games overall.

We don't forget it, we just think the opinion of people who didn't play ME1/2 doesn't count. Just kidding. Or not. Maybe.

Just because someone didn't play it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[txgoldrush]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Could someone give me the entire gist of this Kasumi DLC beyond "It's a heist where you infiltrate a party for something!"? Spoilers and everything is what I'd like.

Because something tells me that if you look beyond the very superficial similarities of "It's a heist" the two DLCs are radically different.

Some people really like to take stories/characters with similarities, ignore everything that makes them different, and then declare them too similar as if that kind of reduction was in and of itself a profound observation.

I've never played Stolen Memory and don't know much about it beyond the fact it involves Kasumi and a heist. If there are similarities between it and MotA, I'm not certain why I or anyone else should care so long as the tales are enjoyable.

Shame how so many people forget that creative writing has been going on for thousands of years and that just about any kind of plot point one might think of has likely been done before in some way. All you can hope to do is write as well as you can.

And once again, my criticism of Bioware in this thread is not reusing material that is done in the past, its reusing material Bioware has done before. And this DLC is not the first time Bioware has reused a specific setup or plot element they have done in the past. They have a habit of doing it across IPs.

[SkittlesKat96]

I liked MOTA but yeah I have to admit I found it a bit weird how similar it was. Regardless of whether it is intentionally similar/copied. They did do a good job at it thought so I don't really mind.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 25 octobre 2011 - 08:21 .

[AmstradHero]

txgoldrush wrote...
And once again, my criticism of Bioware in this thread is not reusing material that is done in the past, its reusing material Bioware has done before. And this DLC is not the first time Bioware has reused a specific setup or plot element they have done in the past. They have a habit of doing it across IPs.

And once again, this criticism is bollocks. Read my post above. The reuse is nowhere near as flagrant as you claim, and as stated before, if you simplify stories or characters enough, then it's quite easy to claim they are "the same". "LA Noire" is just "LA Confidential" as a computer game. See, I can do it too - that doesn't mean it's accurate.

Do I think it was perhaps undesirable to use a heist scenario given the recent release of Stolen Memory? Quite probably. However, Stolen Memory's "investigation" section felt more than a little flat, and the introduction of stealth gameplay in MotA is something new for Dragon Age.

Are there similarities between Stolen Memory and Mark of the Assassin? Certainly, but that hardly makes them "the same plot" and Tallis and Kasumi are hardly identical characters. You're helping a thief/assassin with a heist and it goes pear shaped, but that's the point of heist stories! If they go perfectly, where's the intrigue? Even Garrett, master thief from the Thief series of games, who could pull off jobs without anyone noticing, still didn't have all his plans go flawlessly. If he had, the series would not have been the great gaming experience it was, would it?

Modifié par AmstradHero, 25 octobre 2011 - 09:54 .