201 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Merci357 wrote...
Shouldn't it be almost required, as a writer, to have intimate knowledge about the offerings of your own company? Just to see what worked well/not so well for the other team(s), give unbiased inhouse feedback, and especially to avoid reusing, say, the same plot twist again. Wouldn't be the first time two people have the same idea completely unrelated of each other.

So? Both teams evidently decided to make DLC's with a heist story (and, let's remember that the two tales are only similar in a few surface details and nothing beyond that)... so what? "Oh no! Someone who's played both Mass Effect and Dragon Age might make a post about how two DLC's constitutes a pattern of re-using basic concepts, and make comparisons that only work as vague generalizations!"

Tragic. How shall we ever recover?

Modifié par David Gaider, 25 octobre 2011 - 02:46 .

[ScotGaymer]

Of course Bioware recycle plots and characters.

It is something they have ALWAYS done.

In fact it is done to varying degrees in every single media out there; there is only so much a writer can do to make his/her story "original".

Yeh MotA and Stolen Memory have similar premises. So what? Does that mean that MotA automatically sucks?

A lot of people dont seem to realise that often Bioware recycle plot lines (and other things) deliberately. Deliberately.
They do this often as a homage to the original plot/device/character. An example of this would be The Space Hamster Shepard can buy in ME2, and Tali and her combat probe Chittikka Vas Paus (and when she shouts out "Go for the Optics Chittika! Go for the Optics). They are all references to Baldur's Gate 2.

Sometimes however its an unintentional overlap also tho. But who cares?

As long as it is good and they dont make a habit of repeating themselves too often; who cares?

[MerinTB]

Not that the similarities bother me in the least. Nor do I think it is the remotest issue to be concerned about, especially considering how many other problems there are with DA2 overall...

but it's not just forum posters who make the comparison. Often game reviewers make it, even in the first paragraph of their reviews.
Just a very quick google search: Joystiq, Eurogamer, Gamespot.
There aren't that many reviews of MotA out there that I could find from "bigger" sites, though.

To be clear - the superficial similarities (as humoursly obvious as they may be, down to the DLC character being hooded) are not a big deal when compared to the overall differences. That said, the similarities are being noticed by more than forum trolls.

[LobselVith8]

txgoldrush wrote...

Seriously,. what the hell is with Kasumi: Stolen Mark of the Assaasin......starring Tallis.

New DLC is okay, Legacy is better and more essential. Felicia Day did a great job as Tallis. But here is the drawback of the new DLC...

It completely RIPS off ME2's DLC when it comes to story.

I thought the drawback to MOTA was that Hawke didn't do anything at the end about Tallis, even when it's within his power to do more than simply stand idly by and do nothing... which is the same problem that occurs all the time in Dragon Age 2 (from doing nothing about Sister Petrice, to spending three years doing nothing about a dictatorship, to standing idly by while Grace murders Thrask right in front of him), and at the end of Legacy as well?

I think there are more tiresome issues in MOTA than the similiarity in two heist stories.

[David Gaider]

MerinTB wrote...
but it's not just forum posters who make the comparison. Often game reviewers make it, even in the first paragraph of their reviews.

Game reviewers are not immune to thinking they are clever by pointing out the obvious. I mean, the ability to take a group of plots or characters, blur them to the point where their differences are ignored and claim that they then fit into re-occuring categories (even if the qualities of those categories don't survive superficial analysis) does not constitute much of an observation.

I mean, if the end recommendation is "you should be more original" and that clearly comes from those who perhaps lean towards jaded tastes and who apply a bit too much importance on how novel something is... well, you'll have to forgive us if we don't try too hard to satisfy them. I'm not even certain there's a plot or a character we could produce that couldn't be similarly reduced at some level to fit a particular category or possess similarities to something they read/played recently... and that's not likely to change, for any story in any medium.

Honestly, if that's the worst criticism that someone (reviewer or no) can come up with, we won't lose any sleep over it.

Modifié par David Gaider, 25 octobre 2011 - 03:59 .

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

So? Both teams evidently decided to make DLC's with a heist story (and, let's remember that the two tales are only similar in a few surface details and nothing beyond that)... so what? "Oh no! Someone who's played both Mass Effect and Dragon Age might make a post about how two DLC's constitutes a pattern of re-using basic concepts, and make comparisons that only work as vague generalizations!"

Tragic. How shall we ever recover?

It's nothing the bigger breasts and more revealing cleavages won't distract the people from. Time to unleash these female kossith and dwarves.

[MerinTB]

David Gaider wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
but it's not just forum posters who make the comparison. Often game reviewers make it, even in the first paragraph of their reviews.

Game reviewers are not immune to thinking they are clever by pointing out the obvious.

By the Maker, this is only too true. <_< 

David Gaider wrote...
I mean, the ability to take a group of plots or characters, blur them to the point where their differences are ignored and claim that they then fit into re-occuring categories (even if the qualities of those categories don't survive superficial analysis) does not constitute much of an observation.

I mean, if the end recommendation is "you should be more original" and that clearly comes from those who perhaps lean towards jaded tastes and who apply a bit too much importance on how novel something is... well, you'll have to forgive us if we don't try too hard to satisfy them. I'm not even certain there's a plot or a character we could produce that couldn't be similarly reduced at some level to fit a particular category or possess similarities to something they read/played recently... and that's not likely to change, for any story in any medium.

Couldn't agree with you more.  And sorry if I came across at all as if I was implying the comparison was important or meaningful.

Only meant it was blatantly in-your-face.  It's so obvious a similarity.  And, still, not important.

David Gaider wrote...
Honestly, if that's the worst criticism that someone (reviewer or no) can come up with, we won't lose any sleep over it.

Nor should you.  If only that was the depth of the criticisms you received.

[HAM Hawke]

tmp7704 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

So? Both teams evidently decided to make DLC's with a heist story (and, let's remember that the two tales are only similar in a few surface details and nothing beyond that)... so what? "Oh no! Someone who's played both Mass Effect and Dragon Age might make a post about how two DLC's constitutes a pattern of re-using basic concepts, and make comparisons that only work as vague generalizations!"

Tragic. How shall we ever recover?

It's nothing the bigger breasts and more revealing cleavages won't distract the people from. Time to unleash these female kossith and dwarves.

Had to login just to "ROFLMFAO" this statement......

[AntiChri5]

When you pump out as many characters as BioWare, you are bound to have some overlap with your archetypes. There are only so many tropes to work with. What matters is where they go with them and how they do them. Yes, Canderous and Wrex are rather similar, but on the other side of the equation you have people who won't shut up about how two characters are the exact same (or one is an inferior version of the other) based on one very flimsy similarity (Wrex and Grunt being Krogan).

On to the topic at hand........Tallis is very different to Kasumi. Kasumi is a fun loving kind hearted thief who steals for the thrill more then material reward, who recruits you to get a piece of her dead lovers brain back. Tallis is an assassin who used to be a slave who derives all of her self worth from a very rigid code she cannot seem to adhere to, who deceives you into acting as a distraction as she kills her traitorous mentor.

[Brockololly]

At least as far as initial impressions go, I think much of the thoughts of Kasumi and MotA being overly similar comes from the marketing. Especially since they have to boil the whole thing down for mass consumption and end up portraying the DLCs the same way.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Seriously,. what the hell is with Kasumi: Stolen Mark of the Assaasin......starring Tallis.

New DLC is okay, Legacy is better and more essential. Felicia Day did a great job as Tallis. But here is the drawback of the new DLC...

It completely RIPS off ME2's DLC when it comes to story.

I thought the drawback to MOTA was that Hawke didn't do anything at the end about Tallis, even when it's within his power to do more than simply stand idly by and do nothing... which is the same problem that occurs all the time in Dragon Age 2 (from doing nothing about Sister Petrice, to spending three years doing nothing about a dictatorship, to standing idly by while Grace murders Thrask right in front of him), and at the end of Legacy as well?

I think there are more tiresome issues in MOTA than the similiarity in two heist stories.

Yea this is the only thing that MotA suffers from. An otherwise great DLC ruined by an anti-Qunari Hawke standing there and taking no action of any sort, even should that action lead to his ass getting handed to him (and let's face it. We'd all get a laugh out of that).

[aries1001]

Some days ago, I watched (quite by accident) the story of Frank Sinatra - and yes, there is a point to this which will become clear in a little while

In it, the story were told that Frank Sinatra starred in a little movie called Ocean's Eleven in the 1960's, I think. It was also a heist story about stealing money from a Casino. In 2001, Ocean's Eleven were re-made starring George Clooney, also a heist story. Now, I think we're up to Ocean's 14 or 15? Heist stories galore...(abound)...

The point is that there simply only is one way to tell a plot in a heist story, whether it be Ocean's Eleven, the Kasumi DLC or Mark of the Assasin's. The plot demands that you break into something to get something - and that you then have to get out again. It is, in fact, in the telling of the story, the writers can show their creativity; also in the characters written for the heist story, here the Mark of the Assasin DLC.

[Barbarossa2010]

Boy, of all the complaints I have with DA2, this isn't one of them.

[upsettingshorts]

Reductionism! It's the new stupid!

[TEWR]

aries1001 wrote...

Some days ago, I watched (quite by accident) the story of Frank Sinatra - and yes, there is a point to this which will become clear in a little while

In it, the story were told that Frank Sinatra starred in a little movie called Ocean's Eleven in the 1960's, I think. It was also a heist story about stealing money from a Casino. In 2001, Ocean's Eleven were re-made starring George Clooney, also a heist story. Now, I think we're up to Ocean's 14 or 15? Heist stories galore...(abound)...

The point is that there simply only is one way to tell a plot in a heist story, whether it be Ocean's Eleven, the Kasumi DLC or Mark of the Assasin's. The plot demands that you break into something to get something - and that you then have to get out again. It is, in fact, in the telling of the story, the writers can show their creativity; also in the characters written for the heist story, here the Mark of the Assasin DLC.

Ocean's Thirteen was the last one.

And I agree with you. While the concepts may be the same, it's how Bioware and other people handles them that sets them apart from the rest.

Kasumi and MotA aren't the only stories that involve breaking in to someplace during a party so you can steal something.

[Sylvianus]

What should be the priority, it's a good story to tell, its own intelligence, its own depth, its subtlety, its structure, its own progress from beginning to the end.

The uniqueness is an asset, but it should not be sought at any price to the detriment of other considerations, what works, quality and smart ideas that cross the mind of the author, whatever the minor similarities with another story.

There are many films, video games and novels we love and yet, they have many similarities with other stories that you know or you even don't know. Cliche !!!!!!! stop Recycling !!!!!!!

I'm tired of seeing all the time those words, you use them for anything here, and often because of one or two elements you found close. A reduction incredible when you see finally the differences in the plot, especially for the characters.

I think the best I ever read was: Aveline = Samara in the future, and Wynn younger and without magic. Wow. I don't remember what were the reasons given, but It was really funny to read.... Well, not really at the time.

And the Kasumi's story, this kind of plot was already similar to some plot in movies. I didn't scream, because that wasn't the same story despite some similarities in the beginning and generally.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 25 octobre 2011 - 10:25 .

[lobi]

It's because the Ancient Greeks had all the good story ideas first. Then The Romans stole them and the rest is history.

[Discus]

Haven't played Mark of the Assasin yet. But to strive for novelty in every aspect of creative concepts and ideas is rather self dedeating in my opinion.

Everything has been done. I think the question is whether a story is well written or not. And whether it touches you or not. To look for novelty as a creator (and I am speaking from my own experience as an dance artist and writer) is.. well. Stupid. What is interesting to look for is context. To understand the story you want to tell and put it in a context that gives an old idea new light. My experience of Dragon Age is that the dev team does that very well. I think criticizing the level of novelty in a work is being ignorant about the context of which it is made in.

I myself am looking for being touched and moved by a great story that relates to this contemporary world and gives new perspectives, engages me emotionally or intellectually. If a creator can do that, well then that is novelty to me. Novelty in context and understanding of history. Why else would people still be writing love songs? Nothing original about the way unhappy love is portrayed today compared to a 1000 years ago. What engages us is the context of that same predicament of being alive and human today just as it was a predicament a 1000 years ago.

We can't expect every story to be completely new or different. That is not the point of creating something. The point I think is to communicate something sincere that can change peoples perspectives, challenge them, touch them, shock them, inform them, see something in a new light. When Andy Warhol made his works with Cambell soup he didn't create something new. He just altered the context of what was already there. That is where you find novelty, not in the object you decide to observe but in how it is observed.

Modifié par Discus, 25 octobre 2011 - 09:17 .

[wildannie]

Brockololly wrote...

At least as far as initial impressions go, I think much of the thoughts of Kasumi and MotA being overly similar comes from the marketing. Especially since they have to boil the whole thing down for mass consumption and end up portraying the DLCs the same way.

this.  

The trailer for MoTA put me in mid of Stolen Memory but playing it certainly did not, aside from them both being heists there's no similarities to compare the two.

[Sylvianus]

While we are at it, can we say that Dragon Age is cliche? Because there are elves, dwarves, lords, as in other stories ? No, it's absurd when you dive into the world. You all loved the universe, the lore and the universe.

Yes in Dragon Age origins, we must gather an army, but do dragon age = lord of the rings ? No. This is not the same story at all, and I am surprised though some may have proclaimed it proudly.

Can we say that the concept of heroes is cliche? No, it is as absurd as to say that playing a normal guy, is cliche.

Can we say that success at the end of the story, saving people is cliche ? No, it makes no sense. I do not see why a hero must necessarily fail to be interesting or more " human ". What I have read on several occasions here and there. If you prefer it, that's you right, but don't pretend more than that.

It's the writing, the progress of story, intelligence, structuring ideas around a thought, concept, that count. etc

Modifié par Sylvianus, 25 octobre 2011 - 09:56 .

[publius1000]

Dear OP,
Did you somehow miss the part where David Gaider, the LEAD WRITER of this DLC, says that he hasn't played Stolen Memory and doesn't know what it's about? How can he possibly be rehashing something he doesn't know about?

[upsettingshorts]

lobi wrote...

It's because the Ancient Greeks had all the good story ideas first.

First?  Hardly.

[AtreiyaN7]

I've watched Leverage, and each episode usually involves a con of some sort and/or a heist. Most heists in shows, movies and games seem largely similar in structure. I think it's the individual details, stories, characters and so forth that provide what novelty there is when we're presented with a heist-related adventure. I thought MotA was well done and was sufficiently different from Stolen Memory in terms of the story. I also don't recall going on a wyvern hunt in Stolen Memory to gain access to the party on Bekenstein.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 26 octobre 2011 - 03:20 .

[Lord_Valandil]

Well, after they went green with the environments, it was just a matter of time before they started to recycle characters and plots, right? Right?

Bad joke.

[Yuqi]

People draw inspiration from various things. There are hundreds of thousands of ways to do so, recycled plots? If you consider something recycled just because its similar, then bioware is not the only one who does it.

The lion king's plot is very clearly hamlet inspired. The ice queen in The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe, is similar to folklore noridic tale of an Ice Queen; Shakspears plays have similarities to tales in the east; and finally DAO clearly borrows from Game of Thrones.

Above and beyond all that, there are certain things that almost always appeal to people in different ways. The underdog who finds out he is made for greatness, tales of valor and courage, evil people getting there dues ect ect.

Everything has some 'recycled' plot/aspect too it.