201 réponses à ce sujet

[Its Warden Commander to YOU]

Yuqi wrote...

People draw inspiration from various things. There are hundreds of thousands of ways to do so, recycled plots? If you consider something recycled just because its similar, then bioware is not the only one who does it.

The lion king's plot is very clearly hamlet inspired. The ice queen in The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe, is similar to folklore noridic tale of an Ice Queen; Shakspears plays have similarities to tales in the east; and finally DAO clearly borrows from Game of Thrones.

Above and beyond all that, there are certain things that almost always appeal to people in different ways. The underdog who finds out he is made for greatness, tales of valor and courage, evil people getting there dues ect ect.

Everything has some 'recycled' plot/aspect too it.

it's not about BioWare recycling plots from someone else, it's about BW recycling Their own Plots.

Modifié par Its Warden Commander to YOU, 26 octobre 2011 - 03:48 .

[TEWR]

Its Warden Commander to YOU wrote...

Yuqi wrote...

People draw inspiration from various things. There are hundreds of thousands of ways to do so, recycled plots? If you consider something recycled just because its similar, then bioware is not the only one who does it.

The lion king's plot is very clearly hamlet inspired. The ice queen in The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe, is similar to folklore noridic tale of an Ice Queen; Shakspears plays have similarities to tales in the east; and finally DAO clearly borrows from Game of Thrones.

Above and beyond all that, there are certain things that almost always appeal to people in different ways. The underdog who finds out he is made for greatness, tales of valor and courage, evil people getting there dues ect ect.

Everything has some 'recycled' plot/aspect too it.

it's not about BioWare recycling plots from someone else, it's about BW recycling Their own Plots.

except they didn't.

[Zanallen]

Its Warden Commander to YOU wrote...

it's not about BioWare recycling plots from someone else, it's about BW recycling Their own Plots.

If you want to get technical, it is one team of writers who work for Bioware using a plot similar, but not identical to one that was used by another, separate team of writers who work for Bioware.

Modifié par Zanallen, 26 octobre 2011 - 03:59 .

[TEWR]

I'm currently watching a playthrough of Kasumi on youtube.

The beginning where one meets her is already radically different from how one meets Tallis. In Kasumi, one converses with Kasumi in person immediately. In MotA, one goes to a Hightown meeting and is ambushed by Antivan Crows before Tallis drops in and kicks ass.

That's a significant difference in that how the player is introduced to the character is already different.

Similar themes do not equate themselves to being similar entirely. Just because Tallis is a thief and Kasumi is a thief is not grounds enough to say Bioware copied themselves on everything for the DLCs.

edit: well, different enough at least if people think radically different for just a simple introduction is a bit much, but there's also a difference in who the person that's being stolen from is.

Duke Prosper is a very close ally to Empress Celene and is obviously a noble. He enjoys hunting wyverns and the history behind how he acquired his Chateau is intriguing on its own.

In Kasumi, whats-his-name is an arms dealer and murderer who's made quite the name for himself.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 octobre 2011 - 04:14 .

[Its Warden Commander to YOU]

Zanallen wrote...

Its Warden Commander to YOU wrote...

it's not about BioWare recycling plots from someone else, it's about BW recycling Their own Plots.

If you want to get technical, it is one team of writers who work for Bioware using a plot similar, but not identical to one that was used by another, separate team of writers who work for Bioware.

So you're telling me that said Writing Staffs shouldn't at the very least be acquainted with what the other Writing staff(From the Same company) is doing?

it's not like they need to be BFF or anything, but i think they should at least know what the other writers are doing, considering that they work under the same brand, and most people won't look any further than that.

IMO anyway.

[devSin]

The way DLC is (or rather, the way it isn't) incorporated into the campaign kind of pisses me off.

At least in ME2 they made her get all up in your face the instant you dock at the Citadel (same with Zaheed at the trashy station).

In DA2, despite knowing in advance that they were going to do DLC, the only "hook" they can manage is a totally out-of-place statue that brings up a painful UI prompt "Are you sure you want to play? y/n"

I know the team can do better, and I really hope they work on this for DA3.

Modifié par devSin, 26 octobre 2011 - 04:15 .

[Zanallen]

Its Warden Commander to YOU wrote...

So you're telling me that said Writing Staffs shouldn't at the very least be acquainted with what the other Writing staff(From the Same company) is doing?

it's not like they need to be BFF or anything, but i think they should at least know what the other writers are doing, considering that they work under the same brand, and most people won't look any further than that.

IMO anyway.

Why? They are working on different IPs. Besides, the only similarities are a female rogue companion planning a heist that involves a party. Oh, and there is an antagonist who finds out about it and you have to fight them. Everything else is different.

Female rogue: That's the character Tallis. Bioware didn't design Tallis. They just put her into the game.

Heist: Pretty common motivation for rogues. They steal things. Plus, we already have a difference in that the heist is a front for Tallis to get to the party so that she can have access to her true goal of counter espionage and assassination.

Party: Very, very common setting for heist plots. However, we have more differences with the wyvern hunt and such.

Antagonist who discovers what is happening: Duh. It would be pretty damn boring if there was no antagonist and the heist went off without a hitch. The mark almost always figures out what is happening and moves to prevent the heist from happening.

[Zanallen]

devSin wrote...

The way DLC is (or rather, the way it isn't) incorporated into the campaign kind of pisses me off.

At least in ME2 they made her get all up in your face the instant you dock at the Citadel (same with Zaheed at the trashy station).

In DA2, despite knowing in advance that they were going to do DLC, the only "hook" they can manage is a totally out-of-place statue that brings up a painful UI prompt "Are you sure you want to play? y/n"

I know the team can do better, and I really hope they work on this for DA3.

ME DLCs are all incorporated within the game.

DA2 DLCs, for the most part, are more like the DA:O DLCs. They are separate campaigns divorced from the main game.

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

Its Warden Commander to YOU wrote...

So you're telling me that said Writing Staffs shouldn't at the very least be acquainted with what the other Writing staff(From the Same company) is doing?

it's not like they need to be BFF or anything, but i think they should at least know what the other writers are doing, considering that they work under the same brand, and most people won't look any further than that.

IMO anyway.

Why? They are working on different IPs. Besides, the only similarities are a female rogue companion planning a heist that involves a party. Oh, and there is an antagonist who finds out about it and you have to fight them. Everything else is different.

Female rogue: That's the character Tallis. Bioware didn't design Tallis. They just put her into the game.

Heist: Pretty common motivation for rogues. They steal things. Plus, we already have a difference in that the heist is a front for Tallis to get to the party so that she can have access to her true goal of counter espionage and assassination.

Party: Very, very common setting for heist plots. However, we have more differences with the wyvern hunt and such.

Antagonist who discovers what is happening: Duh. It would be pretty damn boring if there was no antagonist and the heist went off without a hitch. The mark almost always figures out what is happening and moves to prevent the heist from happening.

I think Bioware sort of designed Tallis. They sent Felicia Day a bunch of ideas where one was the Elven Ben-Hassrath, and Felicia took it from there. I'm guessing Felicia Day and Bioware talked a lot once they settled on the Elven Ben-Hassrath idea, so in a way they did design her.

Unless I'm misunderstanding both you and the facts surrounding the making of MotA's leading lady.

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think Bioware sort of designed Tallis. They sent Felicia Day a bunch of ideas where one was the Elven Ben-Hassrath, and Felicia took it from there. I'm guessing Felicia Day and Bioware talked a lot once they settled on the Elven Ben-Hassrath idea, so in a way they did design her.

Unless I'm misunderstanding both you and the facts surrounding the making of MotA's leading lady.

I was under the impression that Felicia Day wrote the character for Tallis and worked with Bioware to make Redemption. And that MotA was designed afterward with Tallis in mind.

[Mr.House]

Fantastic post Zanallen and Ethereal.

[devSin]

Zanallen wrote...

ME DLCs are all incorporated within the game.

DA2 DLCs, for the most part, are more like the DA:O DLCs. They are separate campaigns divorced from the main game.

No, they aren't. You take Hawke and your party, existing exactly as they are in the main campaign, into the new areas, and they emerge right back where they left from.

ME2 DLCs were also largely self-contained (except for the items or squadmates), but they at least tried to pretend that they fit into the game. So why not give the player a letter to approach a destination on the world map, and have traveling to that area on the map be the entrance into the DLC content (this is the ME approach, which, lame as it is, is still better than DA2)?

If they were intended as separate campaigns completely divorced from the main game, then they wouldn't be presented as part of the main game at all (which they are; you have to get to Gamlen's before you can go off reliving adventures).

Zanallen wrote...

I was under the impression that Felicia Day wrote the character for Tallis and worked with Bioware to make Redemption. And that MotA was designed afterward with Tallis in mind.

David said they gave her character ideas to work with, and one was an elven Qunari-sympathizer, which ended up being the one that appealed to her.

I'm not sure they've revealed who was responsible for what. But I believe they didn't do much for the web series and did most everything for MotA, whatever that entails.

Modifié par devSin, 26 octobre 2011 - 04:32 .

[Zanallen]

devSin wrote...

No, they aren't. You take Hawke and your party, existing exactly as they are in the main campaign, into the new areas, and they emerge right back where they left from.

ME2 DLCs were also largely self-contained (except for the items or squadmates), but they at least tried to pretend that they fit into the game. So why not give the player a letter to approach a destination on the world map, and have traveling to that area on the map be the entrance into the DLC content (this is the ME approach, which, lame as it is, is still better than the way they're just dumping DLC content into DA2)?

They are. Just, instead of clicking to start the DLC from the main menu, you click to start from a statue in game. They are just better integrated than the DA:O DLCs to use the same companions that you have in the main game. However, they work fundamently the same. They are self-contained campaigns designed to fit within the framed narrative of the game and use locations entirely divorced from those found in the main game.

[Zanallen]

devSin wrote...

David said they gave her character ideas to work with, and one was an elven Qunari-sympathizer, which ended up being the one that appealed to her.

I'm not sure they've revealed who was responsible for what. But I believe they didn't do much for the web series and did most everything for MotA, whatever that entails.

Interesting. That being said, I believe that she was one of the writers for the DLC and is the lead writer for the web series. I would imagine she had a lot of say in the character itself.

[devSin]

Zanallen wrote...

They are just better integrated than the DA:O DLCs to use the same companions that you have in the main game. However, they work fundamently the same. They are self-contained campaigns designed to fit within the framed narrative of the game and use locations entirely divorced from those found in the main game.

Exactly like ME2 DLCs. The difference you pointed to doesn't exist. The Overlord pack was its own planet, Arrival was its own planet, Zaheed and Kasumi's quests were their own planets. They are self-contained missions designed to fit within the framed narrative of the game and use locations entirely divorced from those found in the main game. The only one which tried to influence existing areas was LotSB, which changed Liara on the planet she's found in the main game.

Like I said, they're not different. And the way they introduce the DLC campaigns in DA2 (even just compared to what they do in ME and ME2, or what Rob did with Warden's Keep and RtO) is not credible.

Zanallen wrote...

Interesting. That being said, I believe that she was one of the writers for the DLC and is the lead writer for the web series. I would imagine she had a lot of say in the character itself.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do any writing or anything for the web series. So it makes me wonder if she did in fact write Tallis' dialogue in MotA (otherwise, they'd have to be really familiar with the character as she developed it for the series). I only played the first part to get the ahievement to unlock the item, so I didn't see really enough dialogue to tell (and I won't really play it for a long, long time).

All I know is that he said they gave her a list of concepts (I think when they were brainstorming the series), and she picked the one she wanted. I think he also commented that he had to answer some lore questions (he was expecting her to throw basic questions at him, but she actually knew her Thedas apparently), so she was definitely doing more than just reading lines, at least for the series.

Modifié par devSin, 26 octobre 2011 - 05:20 .

[Yuqi]

Its Warden Commander to YOU wrote...

Yuqi wrote...

People draw inspiration from various things. There are hundreds of thousands of ways to do so, recycled plots? If you consider something recycled just because its similar, then bioware is not the only one who does it.

The lion king's plot is very clearly hamlet inspired. The ice queen in The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe, is similar to folklore noridic tale of an Ice Queen; Shakspears plays have similarities to tales in the east; and finally DAO clearly borrows from Game of Thrones.

Above and beyond all that, there are certain things that almost always appeal to people in different ways. The underdog who finds out he is made for greatness, tales of valor and courage, evil people getting there dues ect ect.

Everything has some 'recycled' plot/aspect too it.

it's not about BioWare recycling plots from someone else, it's about BW recycling Their own Plots.

If It ain't broke, dont fix it  There is nothing wrong with re-using a plot,especially if it works. That said, it's not like they are copying there own plots and using them again and again,word for word. Bioware does a great job using a good forumla,and transforming it to something new.

[txgoldrush]

Its Warden Commander to YOU wrote...

Yuqi wrote...

People draw inspiration from various things. There are hundreds of thousands of ways to do so, recycled plots? If you consider something recycled just because its similar, then bioware is not the only one who does it.

The lion king's plot is very clearly hamlet inspired. The ice queen in The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe, is similar to folklore noridic tale of an Ice Queen; Shakspears plays have similarities to tales in the east; and finally DAO clearly borrows from Game of Thrones.

Above and beyond all that, there are certain things that almost always appeal to people in different ways. The underdog who finds out he is made for greatness, tales of valor and courage, evil people getting there dues ect ect.

Everything has some 'recycled' plot/aspect too it.

it's not about BioWare recycling plots from someone else, it's about BW recycling Their own Plots.

Thank you...

The truth is, yes there are some differences between this DLC and Kasumi's, but when push comes to shove, there is ENOUGH similiarities to invite criticism, intentional or not.

Bioware fans should just stop trying to defend this and accept that maybe much of this story is way too similiar in the past,. Accept iit, this DLC is being criticized for rehashing even before release.

[esper]

txgoldrush wrote...

Its Warden Commander to YOU wrote...

Yuqi wrote...

People draw inspiration from various things. There are hundreds of thousands of ways to do so, recycled plots? If you consider something recycled just because its similar, then bioware is not the only one who does it.

The lion king's plot is very clearly hamlet inspired. The ice queen in The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe, is similar to folklore noridic tale of an Ice Queen; Shakspears plays have similarities to tales in the east; and finally DAO clearly borrows from Game of Thrones.

Above and beyond all that, there are certain things that almost always appeal to people in different ways. The underdog who finds out he is made for greatness, tales of valor and courage, evil people getting there dues ect ect.

Everything has some 'recycled' plot/aspect too it.

it's not about BioWare recycling plots from someone else, it's about BW recycling Their own Plots.

Thank you...

The truth is, yes there are some differences between this DLC and Kasumi's, but when push comes to shove, there is ENOUGH similiarities to invite criticism, intentional or not.

Bioware fans should just stop trying to defend this and accept that maybe much of this story is way too similiar in the past,. Accept iit, this DLC is being criticized for rehashing even before release.

Which is why it isn't a fair critism.

[txgoldrush]

esper wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Its Warden Commander to YOU wrote...

Yuqi wrote...

People draw inspiration from various things. There are hundreds of thousands of ways to do so, recycled plots? If you consider something recycled just because its similar, then bioware is not the only one who does it.

The lion king's plot is very clearly hamlet inspired. The ice queen in The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe, is similar to folklore noridic tale of an Ice Queen; Shakspears plays have similarities to tales in the east; and finally DAO clearly borrows from Game of Thrones.

Above and beyond all that, there are certain things that almost always appeal to people in different ways. The underdog who finds out he is made for greatness, tales of valor and courage, evil people getting there dues ect ect.

Everything has some 'recycled' plot/aspect too it.

it's not about BioWare recycling plots from someone else, it's about BW recycling Their own Plots.

Thank you...

The truth is, yes there are some differences between this DLC and Kasumi's, but when push comes to shove, there is ENOUGH similiarities to invite criticism, intentional or not.

Bioware fans should just stop trying to defend this and accept that maybe much of this story is way too similiar in the past,. Accept iit, this DLC is being criticized for rehashing even before release.

Which is why it isn't a fair critism.

Its completely fair....yes there is some differences, not going to deny that, but the similiarities are striking enough to invite this criticism.

If this was unintentional, then Bioware should be more careful next time.

Bioware has had a reputation of recycling their plots and characters, there is no denying this. I give kudos to the DAII team for doing something much different from past Bioware games with the main DAII game, but they need to continue doing this and not rush the next game.

[esper]

txgoldrush wrote...

esper wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Its Warden Commander to YOU wrote...

Yuqi wrote...

People draw inspiration from various things. There are hundreds of thousands of ways to do so, recycled plots? If you consider something recycled just because its similar, then bioware is not the only one who does it.

The lion king's plot is very clearly hamlet inspired. The ice queen in The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe, is similar to folklore noridic tale of an Ice Queen; Shakspears plays have similarities to tales in the east; and finally DAO clearly borrows from Game of Thrones.

Above and beyond all that, there are certain things that almost always appeal to people in different ways. The underdog who finds out he is made for greatness, tales of valor and courage, evil people getting there dues ect ect.

Everything has some 'recycled' plot/aspect too it.

it's not about BioWare recycling plots from someone else, it's about BW recycling Their own Plots.

Thank you...

The truth is, yes there are some differences between this DLC and Kasumi's, but when push comes to shove, there is ENOUGH similiarities to invite criticism, intentional or not.

Bioware fans should just stop trying to defend this and accept that maybe much of this story is way too similiar in the past,. Accept iit, this DLC is being criticized for rehashing even before release.

Which is why it isn't a fair critism.

Its completely fair....yes there is some differences, not going to deny that, but the similiarities are striking enough to invite this criticism.

If this was unintentional, then Bioware should be more careful next time.

Bioware has had a reputation of recycling their plots and characters, there is no denying this. I give kudos to the DAII team for doing something much different from past Bioware games with the main DAII game, but they need to continue doing this and not rush the next game.

It is never fair to judge something before you have it in your hands. For expample because of the way she was promoted I had a faint dislike for Tallis before I had even met her. That meant that I was basically looking for flaws in her character and no matter what she did I was detirmed to dislike a actually well written character for it. It was actually a relief for me to find that she was Qunari because that mean that I could say, I don't like her because of that.
I have never played stolen memory, but from what I have heard they are different such as Tallis basically betraying you (Hawke is her decoy). Did Kaumi do that as well? 
I agree that bioware recylce their go to four place and gather something a lot and I hope that they will keep not doing that in further DA, but saying that they musn't do heist or parties because ME did it is not fair.

[AmstradHero]

txgoldrush wrote...
Its completely fair....yes there is some differences, not going to deny that, but the similiarities are striking enough to invite this criticism.

If this was unintentional, then Bioware should be more careful next time.

Bioware has had a reputation of recycling their plots and characters, there is no denying this. I give kudos to the DAII team for doing something much different from past Bioware games with the main DAII game, but they need to continue doing this and not rush the next game.

Yet you've done nothing in this thread but spout unfounded "they're the same!" rhetoric and refused to respond to logical arguments when they have been presented to you. Simply repeating inaccurate statements like "BioWare are known for reusing plots and characters" without actually being able to identify more than superficial similarities doesn't make them true.

Criticism without rationale and logical arguments to back it up is meaningless.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 26 octobre 2011 - 10:31 .

[Il Divo]

AmstradHero wrote...


Yet you've done nothing in this thread but spout unfounded "they're the same!" rhetoric and refused to respond to logical arguments when they have been presented to you. Simply repeating inaccurate statements like "BioWare are known for reusing plots and characters" without actually being able to identify more than superficial similarities doesn't make them true.

Criticism without rationale and logical arguments to back it up is meaningless.

I can't really comment on their rehashing of chararacters, since I don't think it's true, but the problem I have with BIoware isn't so much the rehashing of plots, but that the technical style they employ leaves the central narrative feeling disconnected.

Since KotOR, every Bioware game has followed the basic format of:

Intro-->Choose a mission-->Ending.

True, some games are more guilty of this than others. But from the least guilty (Jade Empire) to the most (Origins) with respect to storyline, they all commit this error, and it's not clear what Bioware has to gain from it. The choose your own mission structure really doesn't do much for the central storyline; it's like visiting the five different temples in Legend of Zelda: Ocaraina of time, it's simply intended to increase gameplay length.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 octobre 2011 - 12:31 .

[RagingCyclone]

AmstradHero wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
Its completely fair....yes there is some differences, not going to deny that, but the similiarities are striking enough to invite this criticism.

If this was unintentional, then Bioware should be more careful next time.

Bioware has had a reputation of recycling their plots and characters, there is no denying this. I give kudos to the DAII team for doing something much different from past Bioware games with the main DAII game, but they need to continue doing this and not rush the next game.

Yet you've done nothing in this thread but spout unfounded "they're the same!" rhetoric and refused to respond to logical arguments when they have been presented to you. Simply repeating inaccurate statements like "BioWare are known for reusing plots and characters" without actually being able to identify more than superficial similarities doesn't make them true.

Criticism without rationale and logical arguments to back it up is meaningless.

Well said. Couldn't word it better.

[Gabey5]

i did not read the whole thread but here is my two cents:
Bioware games have you joining an elite order, going to four places and the final boss fight. The squadies fit the archtype of bad girl, innocent girl, wise old guy/gal, bositerous war guy.

That is it in a nutshell. So yes they do recycling their game ideas.

It would be interesting if they changed the story around a bit. I like that they tried to switch up the storytelling methods in DAII though. They are trying. Recycling does not make it a bad game though just a predictable one.

Modifié par Gabey5, 26 octobre 2011 - 02:24 .

[AmstradHero]

Gabey5 wrote...

i did not read the whole thread but here is my two cents:
Bioware games have you joining an elite order, going to four places and the final boss fight. The squadies fit the archtype of bad girl, innocent girl, wise old guy/gal, bositerous war guy.

That is it in a nutshell. So yes they do recycling their game ideas.

It would be interesting if they changed the story around a bit. I like that they tried to switch up the storytelling methods in DAII though. They are trying. Recycling does not make it a bad game though just a predictable one.

I read your post and here is your two cents:
"If I vastly oversimplify plots then there are several key elements that are always the same in BioWare games."

Let's take a look here and see how you scored...
Joining an elite order:
Baldur's Gate: 0/1
Baldur's Gate 2: 0/2
Neverwinter Nights: 0/3
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: 1/4
Jade Empire: 2/5 (Technically, you're "born" as something rather than
joining it, but I'm feeling generous here, so I'll give you a point)
Mass Effect: 3/6
Dragon Age: Origins: 4/7
Mass Effect 2: 4/8
Dragon Age 2: 4/9

Hrmm, guess you got that one wrong.

The "going to four places" is a design issue that allows some degree of choice in a non-open-world game design. This is called a classic "BioWare trope", but in reality all it does is provide multiple sub-objectives in order to complete one main objective. Even Morrowind and Oblivion do this at points in their main plot, but you don't have people accusing them of being "exactly the same". But let's take a look.

Going to four places:
Baldur's Gate: 0/1
Baldur's Gate 2: 0/2
Neverwinter Nights: 1/3
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: 2/4
Jade
Empire: 2/5
Mass Effect: 3/6
Dragon Age: Origins: 4/7
Mass Effect 2: 4/8
Dragon Age 2: 4/9

Whoops, less than 50% again! (You do get 5/9 if you go with Jade Empire following it, but that's still only just over the 50% line) Suddenly this argument doesn't appear to be holding up that well.

As for the archetypes argument, I already lampooned the "innocent girl" trope earlier in this thread so that one doesn't hold up either. Do you really want to go in for bat on the other weakly defined archetypes? And "final boss fight"... seriously? Is this some kind of joke?

BioWare games do have similarities in their game design and writing style. You definitely know "you're playing a BioWare game", which is a testament to certain values and principles used in their creation. There's that "BioWare feel" that people want to attribute to certain aspects by generalisation because it's seen to be witty or insightful to do so, even when those generalisations are wrought with inaccuracies.

More importantly, why is this "feel" singled out for attack and derision? How is that any different to particular directors or authors having a particular style for their craft? You could make a generalisation like "Christopher Nolan's films always feature a male protagonist trying to deal with his emotional demons", but it doesn't detract from the strength or worth of any of his creations.

I don't deny for a second that there are elements to BioWare's games that feel similar, but if they created something entirely new with which people could not relate at all to their previous work, then you can be certain that many of these people who play BioWare games and talk about them with derision because "they're all the same" would be up in arms about how "they've abandoned their fans" or "betrayed their customers" or the like. The people that hate on Dragon Age 2 and declare Act 1 to be a "pointless money making exercise" really don't like to have it pointed out to them that their poster child of Baldur's Gate 2 had exactly the same "money making exercise" required in order to progress the story. So there's a re-used plot element for you to meditate on.