201 réponses à ce sujet

[devSin]

I would give him all the points on "going to four places". BG, you go to Nashkel/mines, bandit camp, Cloak Wood, BG (the rest of the crap is inconsequential as far as the limited plot goes). BG2 is not exactly "four", but it may as well be (it's the same "hub" design as they always use). NWN is a persistent offender, with like each act. All of the second and third acts of JE fit perfectly. ME of course with the main planets, and Origins with the legs of the army.

That's 7/9, if you want to be generous and say that DA2 isn't really you just doing the same four things three separate times (I'm sure I could find a way to make it fit if I cared to).

Not to say this is good or bad or even true, but I get where it's coming from.

Modifié par devSin, 26 octobre 2011 - 10:32 .

[AmstradHero]

The "going to four places" is an issue of hub design. If you limit it to "go four places" as in "go to four locations" then it's an even more ridiculous and tenuous argument.

BG isn't a hub design - it's designed to be played in order, and if you try to do it out of order you'll get killed. BG2 also isn't really couched in terms of a "main quest lines" - the first act consists of a lot of different sidequests followed by a linear section, the ability to finish off any remaining side quests, then another linear section. It's more like "open world" rather than "hub design".

If you want to say "there's a linear start, followed by a non-linear hub section, followed by a linear ending" you can mostly make it fit, but that's such a gross generalisation that you can apply it to any game that has a hub section. Heck, I can apply it to Hexen and Quake if I do that. Regardless, it's a design consideration rather than a story consideration, and if you want to find repetition of design elements, then all the games that follow a linear story are exactly the same. It's just a ridiculously shallow argument.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 26 octobre 2011 - 10:45 .

[Morty Smith]

David Gaider wrote...

Game reviewers are not immune to thinking they are clever by pointing out the obvious.

The irony.

[Il Divo]

AmstradHero wrote...

The "going to four places" is a design issue that allows some degree of choice in a non-open-world game design.

I would argue that the design structure provides very little meaningful choice, while preventing the inclusion of a half-way decent central narrative, similar to the Legend of Zelda example I used earlier.
 

This is called a classic "BioWare trope", but in reality all it does is provide multiple sub-objectives in order to complete one main objective. Even Morrowind and Oblivion do this at points in their main plot, but you don't have people accusing them of being "exactly the same". But let's take a look.

Morrowind and Oblivion aren't really known for their central storylines, but primarily for their freedom and exploration. This also ignores that the "choose your mission" portion of those quests are substantially smaller and given less focus than in a typical Bioware game. The portion of Morrowind you are referring to (for example) doesn't occur until 2/3 of the way into the storyline, at which point you're asked to obtain recognition to become Hortator/Nerevarine.

Oblivion's is limited entirely to the acquiring of the Artifacts to reach Mankar Cameron's paradise. The presence of free-form missions isn't the problem when the game's strength isn't the central narrative. The undue emphasis in a Bioware game however is a problem.

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 octobre 2011 - 11:05 .

[Il Divo]

AmstradHero wrote...

then all the games that follow a linear story are exactly the same. It's just a ridiculously shallow argument.

Very true, if the argument was simply against non-linear gameplay. The linear story model typically allows a focused narrative, which I consider a strength. However, Bioware's non-linear storyline doesn't really add anything, beyond the gimmick of choosing what order missions occur.

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 octobre 2011 - 11:08 .

[AmstradHero]

Il Divo wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

The "going to four places" is a design issue that allows some degree of choice in a non-open-world game design.

I would argue that the design structure provides very little meaningful choice, while preventing the inclusion of a half-way decent central narrative, similar to the Legend of Zelda example I used earlier.
 

This is called a classic "BioWare trope", but in reality all it does is provide multiple sub-objectives in order to complete one main objective. Even Morrowind and Oblivion do this at points in their main plot, but you don't have people accusing them of being "exactly the same". But let's take a look.

Morrowind and Oblivion aren't really known for their central storylines, but primarily for their freedom and exploration. This also ignores that the "choose your mission" portion of those quests are substantially smaller and given less focus than in a typical Bioware game. The portion of Morrowind you are referring to (for example) doesn't occur until 2/3 of the way into the storyline, at which point you're asked to obtain recognition to become Hortator/Nerevarine.

Oblivion's is limited entirely to the acquiring of the Artifacts to reach Mankar Cameron's paradise. The presence of free-form missions isn't the problem when the game's strength isn't the central narrative. The undue emphasis in a Bioware game however is a problem.

AmstradHero wrote...

then all the games that follow a linear story are exactly the same. It's just a ridiculously shallow argument.

Very true, if the argument was simply against non-linear gameplay. The linear story model typically allows a focused narrative, which I consider a strength. However, Bioware's non-linear storyline doesn't really add anything, beyond the gimmick of choosing what order missions occur.

All fair points, and I commend you for your intelligent thoughts on this discussion. Your argument is of a recycled design construct rather than (unsubstantiated) claims of recycled plot or character, and it's an opinion I'm inclined to agree with, though with some caveats as I've outlined above.

I wholeheartedly agree that a linear story will allow for a more focused and better paced narrative, because then the designers know the exact order of events in which their story will play out. This narrative allows the designers to play with particular (literary) themes try and push some sort of overarching principle (e.g. that good people must do unspeakable things in order to overcome great evil) through the story. Of course, the ability for players to choose how to react to particular situations, as has been a staple expectation with BioWare's games for quite some time, can potentially undermine the ability to push such a theme, particularly if a player's character is driven by an "unusual" moral compass or atypical motivations.

A hub-design will typically weaken the traditional story driven by sequential story-telling because of the player's ability to pick and choose how they wish to progress the story. Thus as we've seen in BioWare games, they use these "hub-stories" to assist the main plot in a peripheral sense but focus on delivering versimilitude for the setting (Dragon Age: Origins) or developing other characters who are part of the story (Mass Effect 2).

Ocarina of Time may have a hub design, but it still lacks that essential element of choice in how the story can proceed. Link never gets to make any decisions, (unlike the Warden, Shepard, Hawke, etc) which still allows the writers to push a particular theme and plot development throughout the hubs, though again not as much as if the story had been a linear experience.

Dealing with coherent story-telling, a hub-design, and player agency in determining outcomes is a problem with a combinatorial explosion, and so managing to keep a consistent tone in plot development dialogue across all these potential probabilities either requires a multitude of lines of dialogue (and all the associated scripting/logic and VO for modern games) to enable the consistency of storytelling to help reinforce the particular principle that may be espoused by a particular playthrough, but then even this is prone to deficiencies. See The Stanley Parable for an interesting take on storytelling and choice in games.

I do believe that more can be done in this area to allow a hub-design with choice to facilitate more consistent storytelling and more cohesive plots, but it is by no means a simple task. I'm attempting to tackle the idea to a degree in my mod The Shattered War, but I won't go into too much detail here due to potential spoilers.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 27 octobre 2011 - 12:05 .

[Il Divo]

AmstradHero wrote...


All fair points, and I commend you for your intelligent thoughts on this discussion. Your argument is of a recycled design construct rather than (unsubstantiated) claims of recycled plot or character, and it's an opinion I'm inclined to agree with, though with some caveats as I've outlined above.

I wholeheartedly agree that a linear story will allow for a more focused and better paced narrative, because then the designers know the exact order of events in which their story will play out. This narrative allows the designers to play with particular (literary) themes try and push some sort of overarching principle (e.g. that good people must do unspeakable things in order to overcome great evil) through the story. Of course, the ability for players to choose how to react to particular situations, as has been a staple expectation with BioWare's games for quite some time, can potentially undermine the ability to push such a theme, particularly if a player's character is driven by an "unusual" moral compass or atypical motivations.

A hub-design will typically weaken the traditional story driven by sequential story-telling because of the player's ability to pick and choose how they wish to progress the story. Thus as we've seen in BioWare games, they use these "hub-stories" to assist the main plot in a peripheral sense but focus on delivering versimilitude for the setting (Dragon Age: Origins) or developing other characters who are part of the story (Mass Effect 2).

Ocarina of Time may have a hub design, but it still lacks that essential element of choice in how the story can proceed. Link never gets to make any decisions, (unlike the Warden, Shepard, Hawke, etc) which still allows the writers to push a particular theme and plot development throughout the hubs, though again not as much as if the story had been a linear experience.

Dealing with coherent story-telling, a hub-design, and player agency in determining outcomes is a problem with a combinatorial explosion, and so managing to keep a consistent tone in plot development dialogue across all these potential probabilities either requires a multitude of lines of dialogue (and all the associated scripting/logic and VO for modern games) to enable the consistency of storytelling to help reinforce the particular principle that may be espoused by a particular playthrough, but then even this is prone to deficiencies. See The Stanley Parable for an interesting take on storytelling and choice in games.

I do believe that more can be done in this area to allow a hub-design with choice to facilitate more consistent storytelling and more cohesive plots, but it is by no means a simple task. I'm attempting to tackle the idea to a degree in my mod The Shattered War, but I won't go into too much detail here due to potential spoilers.

Damn, very good points across the board, and I agree with everything you said.

On the topic of hub design, I personally don't consider it to be the biggest problem, with respect to coherent story-telling. A game (for example) might allow the PC to return to previous areas, and still allow linear  and effective story-telling. You (rightly) point out that Ocarina. There the story-telling remains linear, but does follow the "Bioware mentality", with respect to progressing the main narrative.

Ex: Everytime Link completes a temple, the impact on the main plot results in 1/5 temples, 2/5 temples, etc, which is minimal. Bioware games tend to follow th same approach: 1/4 Starmaps, 2/4 Starmpacs, etc.

There, I think LoZ could retain the hub design, so long as it presented the player with more story-based events, rather than the "visit 5 temples" approach.

[txgoldrush]

AmstradHero wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
Its completely fair....yes there is some differences, not going to deny that, but the similiarities are striking enough to invite this criticism.

If this was unintentional, then Bioware should be more careful next time.

Bioware has had a reputation of recycling their plots and characters, there is no denying this. I give kudos to the DAII team for doing something much different from past Bioware games with the main DAII game, but they need to continue doing this and not rush the next game.

Yet you've done nothing in this thread but spout unfounded "they're the same!" rhetoric and refused to respond to logical arguments when they have been presented to you. Simply repeating inaccurate statements like "BioWare are known for reusing plots and characters" without actually being able to identify more than superficial similarities doesn't make them true.

Criticism without rationale and logical arguments to back it up is meaningless.

How is that inaccurate....they simply do recycle character and plot elements. Look at Merrill's personality, it strongly resembles Liara of the first game, and in romance, she  definitely resembles Tali in ME2, especially when they tell the player about "saying stupid things" or "babbling like an idiot". Thankfully, only Sebastian (in regards with Leliana) and maybe Fenris (to Jack) resemble other Bioware characters

Why do Bioware games have good aligned male leads? You have Minsc, Carth, Sky (not a lead at first, but main male romancable character), Kaiden, Alistair, and to an extent Jacob. DAII broke the trend of the Carth syndrome. Yes, they all have their differences but they are the SAME archtype. All of them frown on evil or unprofessional actions, and favor good or by the book actions. Jacob does not favor most of Cerebrus's methods. DAII not featuring this archtype is a huge step forward. Varric is not good aligned, he cares about his friends but that is the extent of his goodness. Anders, far from it. Aveline would not fit the female version of this trope because she at many times, favors unlawful actions such as extrajudical killings and can be quite hypocritical.

You got other recycled archtypes that Bioware reused over and over....the spiritual good aligned female character such as Bastila (before her capture), Dawn Star, Ashley (mostly good), and Leliana. You got your cold hearted b**** such as Viconia, Silk Fox, Morrigan, and Jack (as well as Miranda). And really DAO's cast are all reused archtypes.

All this recycling does make unique characters like Wild Flower stand out. She is still to this day, one of the best written RPG characters and one of the most risky ones. I wish Bioware can make more unique characters, and DAII was a start. I really cannot find a Bioware character that compares with Varric or Bethany or Isabela.

As for plots...see Korriban Sith Academy, I mean, Lotus Assassin training fortress.............tell me thats not recycled.

Recycling doesn't always mean the product is the same, like plastic material, it can be similiar as well, similiar enough that the observant will take notice.

[seraphymon]

txgoldrush wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
Its completely fair....yes there is some differences, not going to deny that, but the similiarities are striking enough to invite this criticism.

If this was unintentional, then Bioware should be more careful next time.

Bioware has had a reputation of recycling their plots and characters, there is no denying this. I give kudos to the DAII team for doing something much different from past Bioware games with the main DAII game, but they need to continue doing this and not rush the next game.

Yet you've done nothing in this thread but spout unfounded "they're the same!" rhetoric and refused to respond to logical arguments when they have been presented to you. Simply repeating inaccurate statements like "BioWare are known for reusing plots and characters" without actually being able to identify more than superficial similarities doesn't make them true.

Criticism without rationale and logical arguments to back it up is meaningless.

How is that inaccurate....they simply do recycle character and plot elements. Look at Merrill's personality, it strongly resembles Liara of the first game, and in romance, she  definitely resembles Tali in ME2, especially when they tell the player about "saying stupid things" or "babbling like an idiot". Thankfully, only Sebastian (in regards with Leliana) and maybe Fenris (to Jack) resemble other Bioware characters

Why do Bioware games have good aligned male leads? You have Minsc, Carth, Sky (not a lead at first, but main male romancable character), Kaiden, Alistair, and to an extent Jacob. DAII broke the trend of the Carth syndrome. Yes, they all have their differences but they are the SAME archtype. All of them frown on evil or unprofessional actions, and favor good or by the book actions. Jacob does not favor most of Cerebrus's methods. DAII not featuring this archtype is a huge step forward. Varric is not good aligned, he cares about his friends but that is the extent of his goodness. Anders, far from it. Aveline would not fit the female version of this trope because she at many times, favors unlawful actions such as extrajudical killings and can be quite hypocritical.

You got other recycled archtypes that Bioware reused over and over....the spiritual good aligned female character such as Bastila (before her capture), Dawn Star, Ashley (mostly good), and Leliana. You got your cold hearted b**** such as Viconia, Silk Fox, Morrigan, and Jack (as well as Miranda). And really DAO's cast are all reused archtypes.

All this recycling does make unique characters like Wild Flower stand out. She is still to this day, one of the best written RPG characters and one of the most risky ones. I wish Bioware can make more unique characters, and DAII was a start. I really cannot find a Bioware character that compares with Varric or Bethany or Isabela.

As for plots...see Korriban Sith Academy, I mean, Lotus Assassin training fortress.............tell me thats not recycled.

Recycling doesn't always mean the product is the same, like plastic material, it can be similiar as well, similiar enough that the observant will take notice.

Pfft i wouldnt  compare varric or isabela to DAO characters or this idea of recycled acrhtypes, because if anything in DA2 they are even more defined. Where as in DAo leliana isnt as good as you think and Morrigan isnt as cold hearted as you think. Personally i think Morrigan is one of the best written RPG characters and im not fond of Varric really, even though i know most like him alot. He just doesnt appeal to me.

Again no one is really denying any sort of reuse, but to the degree that it bothers them is the main difference. Lots of companies do the same thing, but even as Bioware said if this so called criticism is the worst of it, its one thing not to lose sleep over. Honestly out of all the people and all the complaints ive heard about DA2 or DAO DLC and all, and even Bioware games in general, i never com across the recycleing of stories or characters being such a deal breaker.

Modifié par seraphymon, 27 octobre 2011 - 06:07 .

[AmstradHero]

txgoldrush wrote...
Thankfully, only Sebastian (in regards with Leliana) and maybe Fenris (to Jack) resemble other Bioware characters

Fenris and Jack are the same? Because they're "tortured souls"? Or Leliana and Sebastian are the same because of their faith? One aspect of a character's personality is similar therefore it's a recycled character? By that argument every single character created for the last 100 years or so in every single form of fiction has been a recycled character.

txgoldrush wrote...
Why do Bioware games have good aligned male leads? You have Minsc, Carth, Sky (not a lead at first, but main male romancable character), Kaiden, Alistair, and to an extent Jacob. DAII broke the trend of the Carth syndrome.

Wait, what? Minsc is the same as Alistair who is the same as Jacob? I dont know here to start finding flaws in this argument because there's nothing logical to attack here. The similarities are about as superficial as you've described: "a good aligned male lead".  If this constitutes a recycled character...  I'm sorry, but I just can't fathom how you could present this as anything other than an utterly trivial argument. Minsc is a hilariously off-kilter rampaging lunatic (albeit with a good heart), whereas Alistair is filled with self-doubt and feelings of inadequacy, not to mention his father figure issues. Laughable doesn't even begin to describe how weak your argument is.

txgoldrush wrote...
You got your cold hearted b**** such as Viconia, Silk Fox, Morrigan, and Jack (as well as Miranda). And really DAO's cast are all reused archtypes.

Wait, but above you said Jack is the same as Fenris. So now Fenris is the same as Miranda and Silk Fox and Viconia?

Have you actually played any of these games? Interacted with the characters at all? Talked to them? Do you have more of a sense of their personality than "evil" or "good"? Your analysis of the personality of these characters appears to be based on a wikipedia article at best... and even then only if you skimmed it.

txgoldrush wrote...
Recycling doesn't always mean the product is the same, like plastic material, it can be similiar as well, similiar enough that the observant will take notice.

The way your argument was couched at the outset of this thread was that plots and characters were being reused wholesale. Now that you've been called on this fallacy, you're trying to argue that your complaint is still accurate because some of the most generic adjectives that can be levelled at a character are consistent across more than one BioWare NPC.

Heck, if we're doing that, then I may as well go ahead and say Fenris is just ripping off Geralt from The Witcher, because they both kill monsters and have white hair. While I'm at it, Commander Shepard is just Jim Raynor from Starcraft, because they're both dangerous space heroes. Wild Flower? She's just the Japanese archetype of the possessed little girl and therefore completely and utterly recycled - she's just a copy of Sadako from Ringu.

If you're looking at characters this superficially, then you can pretty much equate every fictional character across any medium with another.  That's not being observant, it's just being ignorant.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 27 octobre 2011 - 06:05 .

[txgoldrush]

AmstradHero wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
Thankfully, only Sebastian (in regards with Leliana) and maybe Fenris (to Jack) resemble other Bioware characters

A) Fenris and Jack are the same? Because they're "tortured souls"? Or Leliana and Sebastian are the same because of their faith? One aspect of a character's personality is similar therefore it's a recycled character? By that argument every single character created for the last 100 years or so in every single form of fiction has been a recycled character.

txgoldrush wrote...
Why do Bioware games have good aligned male leads? You have Minsc, Carth, Sky (not a lead at first, but main male romancable character), Kaiden, Alistair, and to an extent Jacob. DAII broke the trend of the Carth syndrome.

Wait, what? Minsc is the same as Alistair who is the same as Jacob? I dont know here to start finding flaws in this argument because there's nothing logical to attack here. The similarities are about as superficial as you've described: "a good aligned male lead".  If this constitutes a recycled character...  I'm sorry, but I just can't fathom how you could present this as anything other than an utterly trivial argument. Minsc is a hilariously off-kilter rampaging lunatic (albeit with a good heart), whereas Alistair is filled with self-doubt and feelings of inadequacy, not to mention his father figure issues. Laughable doesn't even begin to describe how weak your argument is.

txgoldrush wrote...
You got your cold hearted b**** such as Viconia, Silk Fox, Morrigan, and Jack (as well as Miranda). And really DAO's cast are all reused archtypes.

Wait, but above you said Jack is the same as Fenris. So now Fenris is the same as Miranda and Silk Fox and Viconia?

C) Have you actually played any of these games? Interacted with the characters at all? Talked to them? Do you have more of a sense of their personality than "evil" or "good"? Your analysis of the personality of these characters appears to be based on a wikipedia article at best... and even then only if you skimmed it.

txgoldrush wrote...
Recycling doesn't always mean the product is the same, like plastic material, it can be similiar as well, similiar enough that the observant will take notice.

D) The way your argument was couched at the outset of this thread was that plots and characters were being reused wholesale. Now that you've been called on this fallacy, you're trying to argue that your complaint is still accurate because some of the most generic adjectives that can be levelled at a character are consistent across more than one BioWare NPC.

Heck, if we're doing that, then I may as well go ahead and say Fenris is just ripping off Geralt from The Witcher, because they both kill monsters and have white hair. While I'm at it, Commander Shepard is just Jim Raynor from Starcraft, because they're both dangerous space heroes. Wild Flower? She's just the Japanese archetype of the possessed little girl and therefore completely and utterly recycled - she's just a copy of Sadako from Ringu.

If you're looking at characters this superficially, then you can pretty much equate every fictional character across any medium with another.  That's not being observant, it's just being ignorant.

A) Both Jack and Fenris are psychotic murderous characters who have extreme hatred for those that abused them and made them the way they are. Jack - Cerberus and Fenris - magisters. While they have their differences, this similiarity is striking.

Sebastian and Leliana were both religious characters with dark amoral pasts. Both approve strongly of noble moral decisions, much more so than any other cast memeber. Both characters also struggle with their faith at the present times of their games, and both can be hardened to reject their faith (although canon that leliana keeps hers). In fact, this character reuse would have been done far better if both characters when they meet in DAII talked about their journies. Blown oppurtunity in Sebastian's Act III quest. Then the recycle could be justified.


Once again, recycled from THEIR OWN WORK, not from OTHERS.

They are all the SAME ROLE. Yes, some details from each character are different but the ROLE THEY PLAY ARE THE SAME!!!!! Its the same role where this character will try to lead the character toward a "light" or "good" side from early on. Thats recycling the same archtype over and over. Carth will chide the player for going dark side. Sky hates Closed Fist actions and will attack the player in the end for poisoning the water dragon, if not in romance. Kaiden suggests paragon routes in his dialogues. Alistair approves of most good and moral actions. Jacob approves of less ruthless means and provides some conscience to some memebers of Cereberus.

C) Fenris is by far the biggest jerkass of the cast and quite cruel to mage members of the cast. And he even snaps at Hawke even a friendly one. He would definitely fit the archtype if he was female.

D) The entire heist storyline WAS reused nearly wholesale. It involved being enlisted by a female rogue like character to infilitrate a party, find a way inside the point of interest at the party, being caught by the host because he notices something fishy about the female lead character and knows who they are anyway. and then breaks out and kills said host. The ONLY difference was that MotA had a wyvern hunt to get in and Tallis was far more dishonest that Kasumi was (however both Kasumi's greybox and the list of Qunari would be very dangerous in the wrong hands so here is another similiarity). There are way too many points of similarities and its past superficial. Also, the point of the story is the same, stop bad guys from getting hands on dangerous info.

There is NOTHING superficial about comapring the ROLE the characters play. in fact, you comparison with Fenris and Geralt is laughable because Geralts ROLE was to slay monsters, both human and beastial. Fenris's role isn't, his role is to bring an extreme emotion against a plot element, which is the same as Jacks. The fact of the matter is that Carth, Alistair, Kaiden, Jacob, and Sky play the same ROLE despite some differences in character. That is still recycling.

Yes, Wild Flower may be inspired by Japanese works and influences however is she similiar TO OTHER BIOWARE CHARACTERS? No.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 27 octobre 2011 - 09:27 .

[txgoldrush]

seraphymon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
Its completely fair....yes there is some differences, not going to deny that, but the similiarities are striking enough to invite this criticism.

If this was unintentional, then Bioware should be more careful next time.

Bioware has had a reputation of recycling their plots and characters, there is no denying this. I give kudos to the DAII team for doing something much different from past Bioware games with the main DAII game, but they need to continue doing this and not rush the next game.

Yet you've done nothing in this thread but spout unfounded "they're the same!" rhetoric and refused to respond to logical arguments when they have been presented to you. Simply repeating inaccurate statements like "BioWare are known for reusing plots and characters" without actually being able to identify more than superficial similarities doesn't make them true.

Criticism without rationale and logical arguments to back it up is meaningless.

How is that inaccurate....they simply do recycle character and plot elements. Look at Merrill's personality, it strongly resembles Liara of the first game, and in romance, she  definitely resembles Tali in ME2, especially when they tell the player about "saying stupid things" or "babbling like an idiot". Thankfully, only Sebastian (in regards with Leliana) and maybe Fenris (to Jack) resemble other Bioware characters

Why do Bioware games have good aligned male leads? You have Minsc, Carth, Sky (not a lead at first, but main male romancable character), Kaiden, Alistair, and to an extent Jacob. DAII broke the trend of the Carth syndrome. Yes, they all have their differences but they are the SAME archtype. All of them frown on evil or unprofessional actions, and favor good or by the book actions. Jacob does not favor most of Cerebrus's methods. DAII not featuring this archtype is a huge step forward. Varric is not good aligned, he cares about his friends but that is the extent of his goodness. Anders, far from it. Aveline would not fit the female version of this trope because she at many times, favors unlawful actions such as extrajudical killings and can be quite hypocritical.

You got other recycled archtypes that Bioware reused over and over....the spiritual good aligned female character such as Bastila (before her capture), Dawn Star, Ashley (mostly good), and Leliana. You got your cold hearted b**** such as Viconia, Silk Fox, Morrigan, and Jack (as well as Miranda). And really DAO's cast are all reused archtypes.

All this recycling does make unique characters like Wild Flower stand out. She is still to this day, one of the best written RPG characters and one of the most risky ones. I wish Bioware can make more unique characters, and DAII was a start. I really cannot find a Bioware character that compares with Varric or Bethany or Isabela.

As for plots...see Korriban Sith Academy, I mean, Lotus Assassin training fortress.............tell me thats not recycled.

Recycling doesn't always mean the product is the same, like plastic material, it can be similiar as well, similiar enough that the observant will take notice.

Pfft i wouldnt  compare varric or isabela to DAO characters or this idea of recycled acrhtypes, because if anything in DA2 they are even more defined. Where as in DAo leliana isnt as good as you think and Morrigan isnt as cold hearted as you think. Personally i think Morrigan is one of the best written RPG characters and im not fond of Varric really, even though i know most like him alot. He just doesnt appeal to me.

Again no one is really denying any sort of reuse, but to the degree that it bothers them is the main difference. Lots of companies do the same thing, but even as Bioware said if this so called criticism is the worst of it, its one thing not to lose sleep over. Honestly out of all the people and all the complaints ive heard about DA2 or DAO DLC and all, and even Bioware games in general, i never com across the recycleing of stories or characters being such a deal breaker.

There is easily a moral guage in DAO, stick Leliana and Morrigan in the party, anything Leliana approves of is good, anything Morrigan approves is cruel. In fact Leliana's recognition of her dark past and the need to get away from it makes her an even more moral character, not less of one. And when hardened, she is still a "good" character, but her hardeneing isn't canon by the looks of DAII. Morrigan can be staggered from her "survival of the fittest" views through romance, but really she doesn't change.

If recycling stories wasn't an issue, than Hellforge's Bioware Cliche Chart would not have been made and character comparison articles would not be made. It isn't a deal breaker for many gamers because standards in video game storytelling are so low.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 27 octobre 2011 - 09:43 .

[AmstradHero]

txgoldrush wrote...
Both Jack and Fenris are psychotic murderous characters who have extreme hatred for those that abused them and made them the way they are. Jack - Cerberus and Fenris - magisters. While they have their differences, this similiarity is striking. ... Sebastian and Leliana were both religious characters with dark amoral pasts.

Again, you're saying ONE ASPECT of the character is similar. I don't disagree. Where you're wrong is that reusing one aspect of a character does not constitute "recycling the character". Your claim that the characters are the same is ridiculous and inaccurate, end of story.

txgoldrush wrote...
They are all the SAME ROLE. Yes, some details from each character are different but the ROLE THEY PLAY ARE THE SAME!!!!! Its the same role where this character will try to lead the character toward a "light" or "good" side from early on. Thats recycling the same archtype over and over. Carth will chide the player for going dark side. Sky hates Closed Fist actions and will attack the player in the end for poisoning the water dragon, if not in romance. Kaiden suggests paragon routes in his dialogues. Alistair approves of most good and moral actions. Jacob approves of less ruthless means and provides some conscience to some memebers of Cereberus.

Your argument has changed here once again. Now you're claiming "they fit the same role" as opposed to "they're recycled characters.  Having a "good" moral compass does not make a recycled character. Any accusation that it does is ridiculous.

txgoldrush wrote...
C) Fenris is by far the biggest jerkass of the cast and quite cruel to mage members of the cast. And he even snaps at Hawke even a friendly one. He would definitely fit the archtype if he was female.

Get to know him. Rivalmance him. He's a jackass, but a jackass with reasons, and he's most certainly not the same character as Viconia, Morrigan, Jack, etc, just as they are not the same character. Sharing one characteristic (an antagonist viewpoint towards the protagonist) does not dictate a recycled character. If you knew anything about writing, you would know that conflict is an essential part of plot and character development. Having an NPC with an antagonistic relationship towards the PC is one way of exploring this.

txgoldrush wrote...
D) The entire heist storyline WAS reused nearly wholesale. It involved being enlisted by a female rogue like character to infilitrate a party, find a way inside the point of interest at the party, being caught by the host because he notices something fishy about the female lead character and knows who they are anyway. and then breaks out and kills said host. The ONLY difference was that MotA had a wyvern hunt to get in and Tallis was far more dishonest that Kasumi was (however both Kasumi's greybox and the list of Qunari would be very dangerous in the wrong hands so here is another similiarity). There are way too many points of similarities and its past superficial. Also, the point of the story is the same, stop bad guys from getting hands on dangerous info.

So they're exactly the same apart from a slew of differences in characters, settings, reactions, gameplay... yeah, I can see the recycling now. *sigh* It's recycled because they were both heists. Oh, the inglorious repetition! (Just in case you don't pick up on it, I was being sarcastic there)

txgoldrush wrote...
There is NOTHING superficial about comapring the ROLE the characters play. in fact, you comparison with Fenris and Geralt is laughable because Geralts ROLE was to slay monsters, both human and beastial. Fenris's role isn't, his role is to bring an extreme emotion against a plot element, which is the same as Jacks. The fact of the matter is that Carth, Alistair, Kaiden, Jacob, and Sky play the same ROLE despite some differences in character. That is still recycling.

Obviously you don't understand the concept of exaggeration in order to make a point. You claimed the characters were recycled and make superficial comparisons. I did the same in order to point out the specious nature of your argument.

txgoldrush wrote...
Once again, recycled from THEIR OWN WORK, not from OTHERS. Yes, Wild Flower may be inspired by Japanese works and influences however is she similiar TO OTHER BIOWARE CHARACTERS? No.

Right, so you're going to get all up in arms because of perceived (and inaccurate) claims about wholesale recycling of characters from their own work, but it's okay if they grab from elsewhere. I can vaguely understand where you're coming from on this point, but it's undermined by the fact that the remainder of your arguments here are just inconsistent and riddled with generalisations to the point that they are inaccurate.

I have an exercise for you. Go read "The Writer's Journey" by Christopher Vogler. Now fit all characters in all games into one of those roles. If you do this, you will discover something: If you have a pre-defined set of character generic archetypes and wish to fit everyone in a story into one of those archetypes, you can and will do it.  This does not mean that those characters are all the same, or that they are recycled.

As was stated so simply before: If you generalise enough, everything is recycled. This is as true for BioWare's own work as it is for anyone in the creative arts. You've seemingly got an axe to grind about perceived similarities in BioWare's work and are willing to grossly generalise characters and plots to make this argument, despite that the fact that you're simplified them so much that the comparisons are utterly superficial.

Your blatant inability to understand this, or your denial in accepting it either tells me that you simply can't comprehend the structure and composition of stories and characters, or you're trolling. Either way, it's becoming increasingly apparent that no profound insights into the field of game design and writing shall be gleaned from this discussion with you. Should you choose to engage in some credible debate, I'll be happy to respond.

As a final tip, just coming back and quoting "but Hellforge had their BioWare cliche chart" and "there was that cracked BioWare characters article" are not valid arguments. While amusing and interesting, they're comparisons taken at a general level one specific elements. Yes, some of those elements are reused, but often only partially, and that's nothing on which a solid argument can be based claiming that BioWare "recycle all their plots and characters".

Modifié par AmstradHero, 27 octobre 2011 - 12:19 .

[Gabey5]

AmstradHero wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

i did not read the whole thread but here is my two cents:
Bioware games have you joining an elite order, going to four places and the final boss fight. The squadies fit the archtype of bad girl, innocent girl, wise old guy/gal, bositerous war guy.

That is it in a nutshell. So yes they do recycling their game ideas.

It would be interesting if they changed the story around a bit. I like that they tried to switch up the storytelling methods in DAII though. They are trying. Recycling does not make it a bad game though just a predictable one.

snip

It goes far beyond style. In their most recent games you do join an elite order, your home or place you hold dear is attacked and you get the same companions with some changed to suit the setting. They are rehasing plots but changing it to suit the envoronment, ancient evil machine race, ancient evil monsters, ancient eveil space station etc.

And Dragon age two was horrible, i like that they tried something new story framing wise but it was a cash grab.  
Levels were horrible, npcs looked horrible, not enough time was taken to actually develop the game. 

Anyway back to the main point, they have rehashed plots since the baldurs and Nwn. Da2 was the exception in which they tried something new but did not put the time in and it turned out pretty sub par. Mass effect 2 was just a recruit suadmates that we used to give you at the begining of the game but now you have to babysit them and help them with their father issues. "Oh the reapers? Yeah not in this game bub"

More specifics about characters the reused chars for their games
The awkward girl is majorly hot

Liara, Mission, Tali and of course they could not help themselves in DA2, merril
-she is an expert in her craft but just can't help but be so awward in social setting *swoon*
The super agressive
Wrex, Canderous, Grunt, Black Whirlwind
- a warriror culture where the strong survive blah blah

The honourable guy
Thane, Zhu, Sten
- basically lik ethe previous group but have some kind of code

Your boring right hand man
jacob, kaiden, and carver
ZzZz

Old wise
Duncan, Anderson, Bindo etc
- i am getting to old for this

Robot that  is baddass
-shale, legion, hk


"BioWare games do have similarities in their game design and writing style. You definitely know "you're playing a BioWare game"

. Yeah we know we are playing a bioware game with this much copypasta,y ou are just defending lazy writing my friend

[alex90c]

Bioware can copypaste all they want, their execution of "the same" is great. Then when they try to go away from that, you get an abomination like DA2, and the not-so-strong storyline of ME2 (since it was more character-based than storybased).

[Gabey5]

alex90c wrote...

Bioware can copypaste all they want, their execution of "the same" is great. Then when they try to go away from that, you get an abomination like DA2, and the not-so-strong storyline of ME2 (since it was more character-based than storybased).

i agree about the execution. But some people here are denying that there is any copy/paste going on. Talk about pluggling your ears and screaming "lala".

da2 was was bad but me2 i can forgive, since holding the reapers back was a good idea in my book till me3.

[Zanallen]

Gabey5 wrote...

i agree about the execution. But some people here are denying that there is any copy/paste going on. Talk about pluggling your ears and screaming "lala".

da2 was was bad but me2 i can forgive, since holding the reapers back was a good idea in my book till me3.

No one is denying that there is a reuse of plot elements. However, the differences far, far outweigh the similarities.

[seraphymon]

txgoldrush wrote...
There is easily a moral guage in DAO, stick Leliana and Morrigan in the party, anything Leliana approves of is good, anything Morrigan approves is cruel. In fact Leliana's recognition of her dark past and the need to get away from it makes her an even more moral character, not less of one. And when hardened, she is still a "good" character, but her hardeneing isn't canon by the looks of DAII. Morrigan can be staggered from her "survival of the fittest" views through romance, but really she doesn't change.

If recycling stories wasn't an issue, than Hellforge's Bioware Cliche Chart would not have been made and character comparison articles would not be made. It isn't a deal breaker for many gamers because standards in video game storytelling are so low.

Talk about trying to have your cake and eat it too. Thats being very hypocrtical. Yes sticking Morrigan and Leilana
 both in (which i do since they are my fav characters along with Alistair) typically being bad makes morrigan happy and being good makes him and Leliana happy. But guess what it works the same way in DA2. No matter who you bring or how you react, you gonna eventually ****** of some members, and make others happy, with you decisions, but what is worse is that even through conversations and such, they never change their stance really. In DAO hardening Alistair and Leliana, still brings about how they feel about things, like becoming KIng, or having a threesome. Morrigan granted is really though rmoance, but its a huge change, which she struggles because in her heart she wants it, but in her mind its ridiculous.

People are always gonna have something to complain about. It doesnt make their issues credible all the time. People if they really cared and think hard enough could complain about this all day on every  video game, because of certain comparisons. How about voice acting? "Oh no they are unoriginal because they used the same voice actor, they are lazy boo." "Ohh they have the same colored hair, thats soo cheap."  Sounds stupid doesn't it? But what is more stupid is saying that its is oke to recyle other peoples work, but not your own. We dont care soo much on whats the same but what is different, or by taking bits and peices of  other stuff and creating something new. I also full disagree on peoples standards being low. If anything i think they keep getting higher.

Modifié par seraphymon, 27 octobre 2011 - 04:57 .

[jamesp81]

The character archetypes some of you are complaining about? They are constantly used and reused by every writer that has ever lived, for centuries and long before any of our grandparents were born.

Get. Over. It.

Yes, Bioware likes certain specific archetypes. And they write those archetypes well, so I hope they keep doing it.

[AmstradHero]

Let's have a little post analysis here. I'm going to see whether any part of a post actually bothered to provide any evidence to support the supposition that "BioWare is recycling plots and characters", seeing as that's the point the OP and supporters are arguing.

Gabey5 wrote...
It goes far beyond style. In their most recent games you do join an elite order, your home or place you hold dear is attacked and you get the same companions with some changed to suit the setting. They are rehasing plots but changing it to suit the envoronment, ancient evil machine race, ancient evil monsters, ancient eveil space station etc.

Does this provide any evidence to support the claim?
No.

This point actually doesn't hold for their two most recent games: Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 2, where you don't join an elite order. Repeatedly making inaccurate statements does not make them true. You've cited something that doesn't support your argument, and instead actually undermines it entirely. In Mass Effect 2 the place you hold dear is not being attacked; the galaxy may be under threat from Reapers, but the immediate threat is the collectors kidnapping humans. There's no attack.

In Dragon Age 2, there's no threat to the place you hold dear. Ferelden is being attacked by the blight, but as a player you have no connection to Ferelden (from Dragon Age Origins you do, but not from Dragon Age 2, which is the whole point), and the overwhelming threat at the outset (again, there's no attack) is that of you or your sibling being captured by the templars.

This is not recycling the concepts you've outlined. Neither of these examples meet them.

Gabey5 wrote...
And Dragon age two was horrible, i like that they tried something new story framing wise but it was a cash grab.  
Levels were horrible, npcs looked horrible, not enough time was taken to actually develop the game. 

Does this provide any evidence to support the claim?
No.

This is a completely separate argument and utterly irrelevant to the argument of "plots and characters are reused". Yes, levels were reused ad-nauseum in Dragon Age 2 and it was utterly awful. I can't criticise that aspect of Dragon Age 2 enough and I wholeheartedly agree that better level design was needed. As for NPCs looking awful, I guess you must be one of those people who hates the elf redesign. Alternatively, if you perhaps were referring to the texture resolution on armor as opposed to faces, then you'd have a specific and legitimate concerned that can be backed up with evidence. I've complained about that before myself.  Now, while all that is very interesting and I certainly agree that Dragon Age 2 has its share of flaws, it has nothing to do with the original argument. What does it have to do with reuse of plot and character? I'll answer for you: absolutely nothing.

Gabey5 wrote...
Anyway back to the main point, they have rehashed plots since the baldurs and Nwn. Da2 was the exception in which they tried something new but did not put the time in and it turned out pretty sub par. Mass effect 2 was just a recruit suadmates that we used to give you at the begining of the game but now you have to babysit them and help them with their father issues. "Oh the reapers? Yeah not in this game bub"

Does this provide any evidence to support the claim?
No.

There's no evidence or argument here. It's just rhetoric, and once again, mostly not even related to argument at hand. Supposing we do take the "now you have to babysit them and help them with their father issues", then again this undermines your argument, because this is hardly recycled content from other BioWare games. Maybe you'd have a point arguing "why do so many ME2 loyalty missions revolve around family?", but that's not reuse from other BioWare games. At best you'd be able to draw on Alistair from DAO and Jan Jansen from BG2 as prior examples of this to cite as recycling. Given how many characters have existed in BioWare games since that time, I'd hardly consider that having ideas recycled "all the time"

Gabey5 wrote...
*copy paste of the "BioWare character chart"*

Does this provide any evidence to support the claim?
No.

This chart is a broad generalisation of characters effectively down to one character trait. I've previously demonstrated how the naive minx archetype is a generalisation to the point of inaccuracy. All the other archetypes can easily be undermined with evidence and character analysis to determine they are not a recycled character. If you're not actually going to read and respond to counterarguments presented to you and you're just going to repeat the same unfounded accusations, then you're just complaining without any legitimate basis except "the Internet said it was true!"

Gabey5 wrote...
Yeah we know we are playing a bioware game with this much copypasta,y ou are just defending lazy writing my friend

Does this provide any evidence to support the claim?
No.

Copypasta would be the wholesale copying of characters and plots. Reusing one small character trait, such as the character is good/shy/angry, does not constitute copypasta or recycled characters. I'm not defending lazy writing, I'm attacking lazy criticism. I'd love to see you come up with a good argument here, because then there would be something to discuss.

I gave txgoldrush this advice just before, but obviously you didn't read it. I'll repeat it again in the hope that you might, even though it seems likely you're just going to ignore it like you did all my other arguments and just repeat your claims without any evidence.

AmstradHero wrote...
As a final tip, just coming back and quoting "but Hellforge had their BioWare cliche chart" and "there was that cracked BioWare characters article" are not valid arguments. While amusing and interesting, they're comparisons taken at a general level focusing on specific elements. Yes, some of those elements are reused, but often only partially, and that's nothing on which a solid argument can be based claiming that BioWare "recycle all their plots and characters".

Modifié par AmstradHero, 27 octobre 2011 - 10:27 .

[Gabey5]

you are missing the point. da2 and and me2 break the mold i have already said that.

i posted the character that were rehashed and cited the games they are from. Obviously they changed some things based on setting China or Tuchana but they are same on the most par

i have posted the plot similiarites- ancient evil, home attacked again minus the da and me as they went with a different direction with da2 and me2 was one long recruitment mission

when i was talking about da2 being bad i was talking your post about dismissing people who disliked da2 as a "money making" exercise. Whether or not BD2 was a money making excercise is irrelevent. DA2 was in my opinion and in many other people's as well.

DA2 goes further by reusing levels along with characters but did not reuse the story. Other games have reused the story and characters but not levels to an alarming degree

[BY-TOR STORMDRAGON]

What's Mass Effect? Doh!

[AmstradHero]

Gabey5 wrote...
you are missing the point. da2 and and me2 break the mold i have already said that.

Actually, no, that's the opposite of what you said.  Take a look:

Gabey5 wrote...
It goes far beyond style. In their most recent games you do join an elite order, your home or place you hold dear is
attacked and you get the same companions with some changed to suit the setting. They are rehasing plots but changing it to suit the envoronment, ancient evil machine race, ancient evil monsters, ancient eveil space station etc.

Whoops.

Gabey5 wrote...
i posted the character that were rehashed and cited the games they are from. Obviously they changed some things based on setting China or Tuchana but they are same on the most par

Again, no, you stated generic roles that could be applied to hundreds of characters, when in fact those characters have a great variance in their personality. Take a look:

Gabey5 wrote...
The awkward girl is majorly hot
Liara, Mission, Tali and of course they could not help themselves in DA2, merril
-she is an expert in her craft but just can't help but be so awward in social setting *swoon*

The super agressive
Wrex, Canderous, Grunt, Black Whirlwind
- a warriror culture where the strong survive blah blah

The honourable guy
Thane, Zhu, Sten
- basically lik ethe previous group but have some kind of code

Your boring right hand man
jacob, kaiden, and carver
ZzZz

Old wise
Duncan, Anderson, Bindo etc
- i am getting to old for this ../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png

Robot that  is baddass
-shale, legion, hk

Whoops again.

Gabey5 wrote...
when i was talking about da2 being bad i was talking your post about dismissing people who disliked da2 as a "money making" exercise. Whether or not BD2 was a money making excercise is irrelevent. DA2 was in my opinion and in many other people's as well.

It seems you didn't actually read my post at all. The "money making exercise" I was referring to was the game mechanic of being forced to raise a set amount of money within the game - something that occurs in DA2 and BG2. I was pointing out a reused story mechanic. But you then stated:

Gabey5 wrote...
DA2 goes further by reusing levels along with characters but did not reuse the story. Other games have reused the story and characters but not levels to an alarming degree

So apparently you don't even agree that a story point was reused, when it clearly was.  However, as many would be very quick to point out, DA2 is not a recycled BG2, and they would talk until they are blue in the face how they are nothing alike. To be honest, I quite like both games, and there are certainly elements which you could pick out and say they are similar, but that doesn't mean that DA2 is recycled from BG2.

I'm afraid I'm not missing the point. The unfortunate point of fact is that you have an argument that is based on nothing but opinion, but worse still, an opinion that seems to be derived entirely from "the BioWare cliche chart" and "the BioWare character archetype list".

Having an opinion is entirely valid, but before you start espousing it as fact and declaring BioWare's vast reuse of characters and plots, you need to make sure that you can back it up. You haven't been able to, and neither has txgoldrush. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet, Learn to form your own reasoned opinions based on facts and evidence that lead to a logical conclusion. If you learn how to do that, you might just be able to construct a valid argument.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 28 octobre 2011 - 03:14 .

[ladyofpayne]

I hope on new character. Because Fenris- whiny boy, Anders remind me about Alistair, Isabela- Morrigan, Merril- Tali. Only Varric and Aveline is new and more intresting.

[Foolsfolly]

David Gaider wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Could someone give me the entire gist of this Kasumi DLC beyond "It's a heist where you infiltrate a party for something!"? Spoilers and everything is what I'd like.

Because something tells me that if you look beyond the very superficial similarities of "It's a heist" the two DLCs are radically different.

Some people really like to take stories/characters with similarities, ignore everything that makes them different, and then declare them too similar as if that kind of reduction was in and of itself a profound observation.

I've never played Stolen Memory and don't know much about it beyond the fact it involves Kasumi and a heist. If there are similarities between it and MotA, I'm not certain why I or anyone else should care so long as the tales are enjoyable.

Really? You totally should. Not because Kasumi's some great achievement in storytelling or anything. Just because Mass Effect 2 is a fantastically well made game.

For some reason I just assumed everyone at the different BioWare studios played each other's games. I don't know why I assumed that. I don't assume people who work in Ford factories drive only Fords.

...although I do assume anyone at Apple using iPhones... must be an electronics thing.