52 réponses à ce sujet

[Huntress]

Zanallen wrote...

Considering the number of people who were ninjad into romances in DAO just for being nice to their companions, I think the flirt icon should stay.

I agree, is nothing wrong with them, it doesn't mean " I love you right now and lest go to bed", its more like : "hey there sexy"
 or "I like what i see"

Like this:

[Zjarcal]

Arivle wrote...

Please, at least in DA3 get rid of that stupid "heart" option in dialog choices. What I loved in DAO was that seduction/relationship was a part of _challenge_. That I could win the heart of someone by careful behaviour, not by dumb and totally obvious "LOVE ME" button which on top of that always succeeds. We're mature people we don't need three years old kids help.

Challenge? It's a challenge to tell that "OMG, you're handsome!" is a flirting line? It's a challenge to tell that "So, you must have quite a history with women/men?" is going to lead to a romantic talk of sorts? It's a challenge to figure out that when Leliana is complimenting my hair, telling her that "maybe I'll giggle or act coy" is a way to follow up on her flirting?

The romantic lines in DAO were painfully obvious and there was NOTHING challenging about figuring them out, nor did you have to be careful to avoid a romance. You would have to be very stupid on the other hand to tell Alistair "You're handsome" and then expect the romance not to trigger.

Also, I fail to see what "maturity" has anything to do with this.

[Heather Cline]

What Zjar said. This entire thread is pointless. The heart icon is just there to help people choose to romance or not romance. Seriously I found it entertaining and apart of the gaming experience. Sheesh.

[nightscrawl]

Arivle wrote...

Please, at least in DA3 get rid of that stupid "heart" option in dialog choices.

No.

I don't necessarily have a problem when it comes to people I want to romance - I won Alistair's affections many times without this sort of help - but rather with making sure the a person I don't want isn't encouraged by friendly dialogue. I thought this was kind of bad in the way it worked with Leliana. There were many dialogue options with her that I might say to close girl friends, but when they were all added up in the end, she took them to mean I had feelings for her. It bothered me tremendously to have to tell her I wasn't interested.

Also, having a "heart" just gives the option for a different friendly-type response. Let's take one of the first flirts with Anders after you talk to him again on completing Tranquility. He openly flirts with you here and you basically have four options: flirt back (heart), green friendly (which he takes positively), purple humor (the neutral response), red harsh (total rejection.) The flirt and friendly dialogue can both lead to a romance with Anders, but the friendly isn't so blatant with your interest. I've picked this on a couple of occasions because the flirt dialogues sound rather cheesy. So, if you think about it, depending on your personality, you might prefer to either flirt or be subtle. You aren't penalized for not picking the heart on some occasions.

Bioware was actually really flexible as far as the dialogue goes, letting you craft it however you want. I've played it so many times now that I know which (?) options go in the best order for conversation flow. With the romances, they have put in the hearts to let you know that this is a possible romance and to give some different dialogue options, but you aren't restricted to using them for the most part. There are key scenes where you should of course (Fenris turning away after Bitter Pill), but not all of them.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 22 octobre 2011 - 10:01 .

[Fallstar]

I would prefer they got rid of the dialogue wheel altogether. I don't really know why they don't just have lines of text. Does the text being in a wheely shape really make that much of a difference?

I have also stated my gripes with the paraphrase system many times before, but if paraphrasing must stay, at least get rid of the icons. They really devalue the whole dialogue side of things.

Edited for IMO disclaimer.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 22 octobre 2011 - 10:01 .

[Heather Cline]

You know it's threads like these that make me long for the days when game developers just made games without fan input. You either bought the game based on the advertisements or you didn't. You liked a game or you didn't. Fans didn't get any input in how a game was made or developed or the storyline or the game mechanics. The developers did what they did and no gamers or fans had any say in the matter.

Nowadays the devs and game creators are catering to the whims of every faction of gamers out there in a single game.

For instance this thread about the "I hate the dialogue heart icon. Remove it now!" or the Mass Effect game where after ME1 had been out and they started making ME2 the third person shooter fans whined and cried about the infinite ammo system so it was removed in ME2. Also since the mmo/multiplayer gamers whined and cried to have a multiplayer experience in ME3 got their way too.

I'm so sick and tired of the whining, complaining, and everything else.

I know I've contributed to it myself and I should be ashamed at myself and I am. Seriously these threads tick me off more than I can say.

Modifié par Heather Cline, 22 octobre 2011 - 10:07 .

[nightscrawl]

DuskWarden wrote...

I have also stated my gripes with the paraphrase system many times before, but if paraphrasing must stay, at least get rid of the icons. They really devalue the whole dialogue side of things.

You can't really have paraphrasing without icons to let you know the type of response it is. The reason for paraphrasing is that what comes our of Hawke's mouth is different depending on personality. All of this is a result of the voiced protagonist (an argument for a different thread), which they have stated is here to stay.

I'm not saying that the dialogue wheel couldn't have been done better. I've reloaded many times because I didn't like what Hawke said based on my paraphrased choice. But people need to get it through their heads that the way it was done in DAO is dead. I'm sure they will continue to refine the way spoken dialogue is handled based on player feedback like this thread, buy I highly doubt we will ever see the return of a long list of sentences.

Heather Cline wrote...

You know it's threads like these that make me long for the days when game developers just made games without fan input. You either bought the game based on the advertisements or you didn't. You liked a game or you didn't. Fans didn't get any input in how a game was made or developed or the storyline or the game mechanics. The developers did what they did and no gamers or fans had any say in the matter.

It doesn't necessarily have to be about catering to the fans though. According to Wikipedia, Bioware had around 800 employees in 2010. Think of the various IP Bioware has: Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Warhammer, Star Wars: ToR, and some others. 800 people spread across these properties and some people working on multiple.

Just because the creative team of several dozen people on one game thinks that something is a great idea doesn't mean that it is. You put these ideas out there to the people who not only play your games, but play the games of other companies and there is a potential source for good feedback from an outside (of the company) source that might provide a fresh perspective on something. Have you ever been working on a project and asked someone to proofread or to bounce off ideas? Well, it's the same principle at work.

The Dragon Age gameplay feature discussion thread is a fantastic example of this. There are many well written, thought out, insightful posts there. IMO if only one or two posts offer something that the DA team had not considered, or a fresh view on something, it was worth going through the rest of the posts to read it. Unfortunately in this day of the internet you must deal with the whiners as well as the thougtful people.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 22 octobre 2011 - 10:24 .

[Fallstar]

At the end of the day devs take fan input with more than a pinch of salt - they only implement something if they think its a positive change worth the resources it takes to develop. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the changes you describe were not soley due to fan input; the devs must have thought they were good ideas too.

[Braindeer]

I'm all for having the icons to set the tone of what you say (no more ninjamance!) but I'd like to see a bit more choice...for example, the heart icon to was really handy to show if I'm flirting or not, but I would have liked there to be maybe two different flirt options - one that's more obvious, and one that's less subtle. Then you'd have to think about the character you're flirting with - eg. for Isabela you'd pick the obvious flirt, but for Anders maybe you'd just say something complimentary (at least to begin with).

I don't know, maybe that wouldn't work. I just found that sometimes if I chose the "flirty" option it was out of character for my Hawke. My character isn't the type to tell Anders she's into S&M. Right after they've just met. ("Hurt me? I might like it!": FACEPALM).

Modifié par Braindeer, 24 octobre 2011 - 06:46 .

[Kidd]

I don't get this "challenge" talk. Is it supposed to be a challenge to sound a certain way? If I want to sound angry, I can do so. If I want to sound nice, I can do so. It's not a challenge (outside of when I'm overwhelmed by any one feeling, I guess!), it's just speaking.

The only thing the tone icons do is tell you what your tone is, since when you're picking dialogue choices you're essentially reading a book without descriptions or chatting without smilies. There are instances while talking to Alistair in DAO for instance where it can be difficult to gauge what tone your Warden will have.

Sometimes you read a line as a joke and he happily joins in on it. But sometimes he reacts just as if you had berated him. If he answered "that's no laughing matter, you insensitive *****!" then yes, that would've been him having an interesting reaction from a joke I figured was harmless, but that's usually not the answer you get in misunderstandings like these. That's not him reacting in a way I didn't expect, that's my character saying something I didn't want.

Your tone can change the meaning of a line such as "Well you never did have all your horses in the stable, did you?" completely. Tone icons make sure we don't have to reload our games cause our character said something we never intended for them to do as often.

[nikkylee]

Braindeer wrote...

I'm all for having the icons to set the tone of what you say (no more ninjamance!) but I'd like to see a bit more choice...for example, the heart icon to was really handy to show if I'm flirting or not, but I would have liked there to be maybe two different flirt options - one that's more obvious, and one that's less subtle. Then you'd have to think about the character you're flirting with - eg. for Isabela you'd pick the obvious flirt, but for Anders maybe you'd just say something complimentary (at least to begin with).

I don't know, maybe that wouldn't work. I just found that sometimes if I chose the "flirty" option it was out of character for my Hawke. My character isn't the type to tell Anders she's into S&M. Right after they've just met. ("Hurt me? I might like it!": FACEPALM).

This was my only problem with the flirting options. Not so much having an icon, but the fact that the icon meant you were about to morph from sane human to some kind of... I don't even know. But the Warden was able to land Alistair without ever pulling out the sex kitten moves. It's like Shepherd, dropping her voice an octave and purring Mr. Taylor from her spread-eagle position on the weapons table.

And while Anders and Isabela are easy to romance without ever choosing the cringe-worthy flirt options... Merill and Fenris are not. In fact... I don't think you can, unless I've missed something. Granted, there are a few sane options for flirting, but I just wish we had more subtle options on the majority of them. Not, "Oh, what a horrific experience! I'm so sorry... cept I'm not cause... rawr, dude."

[rak72]

^ totally agree

[Mr.House]

I found plenty of cringe worthy flirty options in DAO then in DA2. Your mileage may vary. I found the flirting with Izzy, Merrill and Fenris fine. Now Anders is a different story.

Modifié par Mr.House, 25 octobre 2011 - 03:22 .

[alex90c]

Mr.House wrote...

I found plenty of cringe worthy flirty options in DAO then in DA2. Your mileage may vary. I found the flirting with Izzy, Merrill and Fenris fine. Now Anders is a different story.

"but what about true love?"



"how about a kiss then?"



feel free to quote some of the worst stuff from DA:O, I can't actually remember it so I'd love to compare the two

[Forst1999]

If i recall correctly, last time i romanced Merrill i only used the Flirt option in her act 2 "questioning beliefs" (maybe also in the talk directly before this one, after the quest, if this one has a flirt option). As far as i can tell, that is the only one ever required, similar with Anders and Isabela (correct me if i'm wrong, but i am quite sure [can't speak for the Fenris romance]). So you don't have to use the "blatant" flirt options. If you use them, at times you really sound like Zevran/Isabela, but i think that is a nice option.
Without an option to show the text that will actually be spoken, the icons (especially the heart icon) are quite practical in my opinion. I don't understand how you can be offended by a little hint.
Regarding the OP's other point, i don't think that the personality icons tell you what is good and what is evil. It is just the tone of the line. I have an aggressive Hawke that i would consider more "good" than one of my diplomatic ones. For the actual decisions, the icons are not used, the options aren't even always "nice on top, nasty under that".

[Mr.House]

alex90c wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I found plenty of cringe worthy flirty options in DAO then in DA2. Your mileage may vary. I found the flirting with Izzy, Merrill and Fenris fine. Now Anders is a different story.

"but what about true love?"



"how about a kiss then?"



feel free to quote some of the worst stuff from DA:O, I can't actually remember it so I'd love to compare the two

First, the "What about love." I take it as Hawke being funny with Izzy. Second the "How about a kiss" is a agressive/direct Hawke response to Merrill. There is three varrations of that flirt.

ALso I'll just mention Leli and the fruit. That made me cringe, was it ment to make me laugh? Maybe but it did not do what it was ment to do.

Modifié par Mr.House, 25 octobre 2011 - 03:33 .

[MG800]

alex90c wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I found plenty of cringe worthy flirty options in DAO then in DA2. Your mileage may vary. I found the flirting with Izzy, Merrill and Fenris fine. Now Anders is a different story.

"but what about true love?"



"how about a kiss then?"



feel free to quote some of the worst stuff from DA:O, I can't actually remember it so I'd love to compare the two

"How about your fruit - is it forbidden?"
Boulton saying this line would be priceless. I think from DA2  the worst is:
"I always had a thing for scrappy underdogs"(it's more about the tone then words actually)
It's so horrible, it's hilarous.
Maybe also "What about love? *pupppy eyes*" from Izzy romance - I so wish there as other way to activate it.

Modifié par MG800, 25 octobre 2011 - 03:41 .

[jlb524]

RE:  Leliana, I didn't like any of the Warden's flirts for her...I avoided activating the romance until the last minute, when she confesses her love post-Marjolaine drama.

Braindeer wrote...
I'm all for having the icons to set the tone of what you say (no more ninjamance!) but I'd like to see a bit more choice...for example, the heart icon to was really handy to show if I'm flirting or not, but I would have liked there to be maybe two different flirt options - one that's more obvious, and one that's less subtle.

I wouldn't mind having multiple choices for each tone either (if they continue that).

Like, two Diplomatic, two Humorous, and two Aggro choices for each dialog choice.

nikkylee wrote...
And while Anders and Isabela are easy to romance without ever choosing the cringe-worthy flirt options... Merill and Fenris are not. In fact... I don't think you can, unless I've missed something.

I didn't find any of the flirts with Merrill cringeworthy nor did Lady Hawke use her 'sex kitten' voice.  I actually thought she sounded sweet.  I'm sure you only have to flirt with her once too.

Modifié par jlb524, 25 octobre 2011 - 03:58 .

[RagingCyclone]

Mr.House wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I found plenty of cringe worthy flirty options in DAO then in DA2. Your mileage may vary. I found the flirting with Izzy, Merrill and Fenris fine. Now Anders is a different story.

"but what about true love?"



"how about a kiss then?"



feel free to quote some of the worst stuff from DA:O, I can't actually remember it so I'd love to compare the two

First, the "What about love." I take it as Hawke being funny with Izzy. Second the "How about a kiss" is a agressive/direct Hawke response to Merrill. There is three varrations of that flirt.

ALso I'll just mention Leli and the fruit. That made me cringe, was it ment to make me laugh? Maybe but it did not do what it was ment to do.

If you pay attention...the fruit line with Leliana is a turn-off if her approval is low...she disapproves using that line. DA2 doesn't have those mistaken flirt options...they always work.

Edit to add the approval part. Also same thing applies to Morrigan when you mention tying her to a tree and tickled. Low approval she dislikes it.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 25 octobre 2011 - 04:18 .

[Mr.House]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I found plenty of cringe worthy flirty options in DAO then in DA2. Your mileage may vary. I found the flirting with Izzy, Merrill and Fenris fine. Now Anders is a different story.

"but what about true love?"



"how about a kiss then?"



feel free to quote some of the worst stuff from DA:O, I can't actually remember it so I'd love to compare the two

First, the "What about love." I take it as Hawke being funny with Izzy. Second the "How about a kiss" is a agressive/direct Hawke response to Merrill. There is three varrations of that flirt.

ALso I'll just mention Leli and the fruit. That made me cringe, was it ment to make me laugh? Maybe but it did not do what it was ment to do.

If you pay attention...the fruit line with Leliana is a turn-off if her approval is low...she disapproves using that line. DA2 doesn't have those mistaken flirt options...they always work.

Edit to add the approval part. Also same thing applies to Morrigan when you mention tying her to a tree and tickled. Low approval she dislikes it.

I can still have sex with Lei and Morrigan if I use that line, just saying. It's still cringe worthy.

[Cutlass Jack]

Braindeer wrote...

I'm all for having the icons to set the tone of what you say (no more ninjamance!) but I'd like to see a bit more choice...for example, the heart icon to was really handy to show if I'm flirting or not, but I would have liked there to be maybe two different flirt options - one that's more obvious, and one that's less subtle. Then you'd have to think about the character you're flirting with - eg. for Isabela you'd pick the obvious flirt, but for Anders maybe you'd just say something complimentary (at least to begin with).

The thing is, these options already do exist. The obvious one has the heart icon, but the subtle routes are...more subtle. Meaning you pick options other than the heart. Playing whack-a-mole romance with the heart icons is the least interesting way to go in most cases. And you can miss out on some good dialogue.

A good example is when Isabela shows up at your house. Sure, clicking on the heart icon right from the start gets you to the bedroom. But you get much better romantic/playful dialogue if you resist clicking it right away.

And that's not even getting into that each character has very different friendship & rivalry romances. Sure it could be better, but it had more options than people give it credit for.

[esper]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Braindeer wrote...

I'm all for having the icons to set the tone of what you say (no more ninjamance!) but I'd like to see a bit more choice...for example, the heart icon to was really handy to show if I'm flirting or not, but I would have liked there to be maybe two different flirt options - one that's more obvious, and one that's less subtle. Then you'd have to think about the character you're flirting with - eg. for Isabela you'd pick the obvious flirt, but for Anders maybe you'd just say something complimentary (at least to begin with).

The thing is, these options already do exist. The obvious one has the heart icon, but the subtle routes are...more subtle. Meaning you pick options other than the heart. Playing whack-a-mole romance with the heart icons is the least interesting way to go in most cases. And you can miss out on some good dialogue.

A good example is when Isabela shows up at your house. Sure, clicking on the heart icon right from the start gets you to the bedroom. But you get much better romantic/playful dialogue if you resist clicking it right away.

And that's not even getting into that each character has very different friendship & rivalry romances. Sure it could be better, but it had more options than people give it credit for.

True I don't even start clicking on the (hawke) hearts in Anders' dialog because before act 2 because my Hawke just wouln't say those flirts...ever. I am fine with the icons that cuts off the romances to be obvious because I like to know that I have completley messed up. That said: 
 I would like for the option to play a shy character more. When someone come on you why not allow the player to react shyly? espically for those that are obvious flirts or sentences that can be interprented as both flirty or not.
And the possible to let the characters down gently. I still have nightmare from the one time where Rival-Merrill ninja-manced me and turned up on my doorstep and the only option I has was being really... really... really rude or romance her. I replaied her question belief a hundred time and she still turned up so the end result was that I never rival Merrill again. It was just horrible the thingsHawke said to her

[Salaya]

I feel that tone icons are a clear step back in the dialogue system.

Despite other people said, I felt constrained in the "heart", "diplomatic", "badass" wheel. In origins, some lines were obvious, but others, not so much -and, since the statements were fully showed, you had to think what were you going to say, without the "oh, Hawke said something completely different to what I expected" feeling-. Anyway, it does not really matter, since dialogue in DA2 has little impact on gameplay.

With DA2's wheel, you always know exactly what is going to be the consequence. In Origins, some effort needs to be done, and the player could lead himself/herself to problematic situations. It was not the best display of the classic dialog system (probably Planescape did the best thing that could be done with that "system"), since the options and outcomes were not as diverse at it should be; but, even then, it's miles away from the wheel-icon binomy.

[Mr.House]

Salaya wrote...

I feel that tone icons are a clear step back in the dialogue system.

Despite other people said, I felt constrained in the "heart", "diplomatic", "badass" wheel. In origins, some lines were obvious, but others, not so much -and, since the statements were fully showed, you had to think what were you going to say, without the "oh, Hawke said something completely different to what I expected" feeling-. Anyway, it does not really matter, since dialogue in DA2 has little impact on gameplay.

With DA2's wheel, you always know exactly what is going to be the consequence. In Origins, some effort needs to be done, and the player could lead himself/herself to problematic situations. It was not the best display of the classic dialog system (probably Planescape did the best thing that could be done with that "system"), since the options and outcomes were not as diverse at it should be; but, even then, it's miles away from the wheel-icon binomy.

There was not effort involved in DAO.

[Salaya]

Mr.House wrote...

...

There was not effort involved in DAO.

[failed to resist jedi mind trick] No, its true, there was no effort involved in DAO.

Modifié par Salaya, 25 octobre 2011 - 06:57 .