135 réponses à ce sujet

[FrobergDK]

Now, I don't.

In DA2 the only mage I don't want to promptly kill, that I can recruit in to my party, is Bethany. All others deserve to die immediately. The second I found out about Anders' plot, I wanted to lop off his head right then and there - or at least report him to the templars.

Merrill is more of the same. I do not care for her, her excuses nor her blood magic. I wanted a way of saving the Keepers life, and ending hers. Why do I not get to kill her as punishment for what she's done? Report her to the Templars? Anything?! 

Now I just play without any mages.

At least there were redeemable qualities in the DA NPC's. These new ones are so flawed that you kind of just want to kill them. Fenris is so emo it's not even funny, Carver is an **** but at least he gets the Bethany treatment, Aveline should really just stick to being guard captain, Anders and Merrill ought to be reported to the templars. Really the only NPC's I do like are the dog, Isabella and Varric. Isabella and Varric do not condemn me, and I get their motivations.
I won't even touch on Sebastian - I truly cannot stand his atttiude. And why is it, regardless of how much I have played with any of them, that they're suddenly very close to me, based on dialogue options, at the end? 

I want some choices, damnit.

And yes, I realize that with Anders being responsible for the whole final act set-up he is kind of necessary, but at least he could be in hiding or something. Reporting him to the templars, have him kill a dozen of them brutally and run off only to be "discovered" as he's slaughtering as many templars as he possibly can.
Lets not mention the fact that destroying the Chantry of all things, makes very ltitle sense.

I'm rambling now, so I'll wrap this up.. but those of you who do like Merrill and Anders - can you offer up some reasons for it? I simply do not see the appeal.

[Xilizhra]

Merrill is more of the same. I do not care for her, her excuses nor her blood magic. I wanted a way of saving the Keepers life, and ending hers. Why do I not get to kill her as punishment for what she's done? Report her to the Templars? Anything?!

Hawke isn't a monster.

I'm rambling now, so I'll wrap this up.. but those of you who do like Merrill and Anders - can you offer up some reasons for it? I simply do not see the appeal.

Would it actually change anything, I wonder?
However, I like their passion, their commitment to something greater than themselves. I like how Anders' desire to help people extends beyond the mage rebellion, with him still running that clinic full-time. I like how Merrill's pride is so nicely leavened by selflessness. I frankly like Merrill's adorability. I also like how Merrill is proof of one being able to use blood magic without any corruption.

[whykikyouwhy]

FrobergDK wrote...
In DA2 the only mage I don't want to promptly kill, that I can recruit in to my party, is Bethany. All others deserve to die immediately. The second I found out about Anders' plot, I wanted to lop off his head right then and there - or at least report him to the templars.

It's probably not healthy to have that much vitriol and anger toward your adventuring companions.

People will like some characters, dislike others, or not care either way. That's the great thing about the characters - they're not all the same. They're written with their own backstories, opinions, etc.

I can only wonder what it is you look for in followers/companions...

Really the only NPC's I do like are the dog, Isabella and Varric. Isabella and Varric do not condemn me, and I get their motivations.

Oh...that's it then? Followers who don't vocalize their disagreement? Ok...I've got it now.

[FrobergDK]

She does succumb though. She succumbs in the fade, easily I might add.

She is adorable yes, but it hides an irresponsible use of magic at every turn. She scares the living crap out of me.

Appreciate your reasoning though, I see all that as valid points - but to their 'good' qualities outweigh the sheer destruction they cause? Surely blowing up the chantry and raining fire and brimstone down upon Kirkwall will negate any healing Anders may have done. Merrill doesn't even bother with getting to know the local elves, because she believes herself to be above them.

[jlb524]

FrobergDK wrote...

I'm rambling now, so I'll wrap this up.. but those of you who do like Merrill and Anders - can you offer up some reasons for it? I simply do not see the appeal.

Merrill

• Selflessly devotes herself to a greater cause, giving up everything in the process.
• Is one of a few Dalish elves we encounter that's actually pro-active in restoring lost elven history.
• Compassionate.
• Remains determined to do what she thinks is right in the face of opposition from her clan (possibly Hawke).
• I also admire her intelligence and the fact that she's well learned in her area of study.

Anders has some similarities to Merrill.

Perhaps you don't like or care for their causes and this is why you cannot relate?

[Xilizhra]

She does succumb though. She succumbs in the fade, easily I might add.

Everyone does, except the one who's already a spirit himself. Mind control does that.

She is adorable yes, but it hides an irresponsible use of magic at every turn. She scares the living crap out of me.

She never once damages anyone or anything with her magic except the people trying to kill her. I'd say that counts as pretty responsible.

Surely blowing up the chantry and raining fire and brimstone down upon Kirkwall will negate any healing Anders may have done.

Difficult to say. I highly doubt it harmed many of the people he helped, because they were mostly Darktown refugees and Darktown was safe from the blast. In terms of total casualties, we'd have to weigh them against those lives saved in the future if the mage rebellion succeeds.

Merrill doesn't even bother with getting to know the local elves, because she believes herself to be above them.

Clearly a consequence of not talking to her. Merrill's highly socially awkward and is at least in part trying to keep a low profile so as not to get caught by templars.

[jlb524]

FrobergDK wrote...
She does succumb though. She succumbs in the fade, easily I might add.

So do the others.

FrobergDK wrote...
She is adorable yes, but it hides an irresponsible use of magic at every turn. She scares the living crap out of me.

I would argue that she was actually quite responsible with her use of blood magic, considering she didn't unleash demons onto the alienage or turn them all into her slaves.

FrobergDK wrote...
Appreciate your reasoning though, I see all that as valid points - but to their 'good' qualities outweigh the sheer destruction they cause? Surely blowing up the chantry and raining fire and brimstone down upon Kirkwall will negate any healing Anders may have done. Merrill doesn't even bother with getting to know the local elves, because she believes herself to be above them.

You don't care about all the destruction Isabela caused in Act 2?  Her motives were also selfish.

Merrill and Anders at least had good intentions....good intentions don't always equal great results, though.

I have no idea why you feel Merrill thinks she's above the other elves.  If you read her codex entry, it seems that they avoided her.  She's also socially awkward and prefers to hang out alone at home which is probably why they avoid her and think she's a bit weird.

[Xilizhra]

She just needs some tough love.

**** this.

[Zjarcal]

I liked Merrill because every time she got lost she stopped by my house and teached me how to frolick like a Dalish. It is to her that my Hawke owes her frolicking skills. How could I not love her? 

[dgcatanisiri]

FrobergDK wrote...

She does succumb though. She succumbs in the fade, easily I might add. 

It's not as if it takes a lot more coaxing with any of the others, you realize. That's the point of that sequence, that these are the companions fatal flaws that make them fail to resist the temptations offered to them.

Appreciate your reasoning though, I see all that as valid points - but
to their 'good' qualities outweigh the sheer destruction they cause?
Surely blowing up the chantry and raining fire and brimstone down upon
Kirkwall will negate any healing Anders may have done. Merrill doesn't
even bother with getting to know the local elves, because she believes
herself to be above them.

'Believes herself to be above them'? I think you were playing a different game than me. She stays isolated in her home because she's working on the Eluvian to the point of ignoring even eating. And even then, during the quest to find the missing mages, take her along to meet with Huon's wife, and she clearly knows Merrill and isn't antagonistic or anything. We don't really get a whole lot of Merrill in the alienage, primarily because the game doesn't take place there - regularly, you're taking Merrill away from the alienage. And a significant part of her character is her awkwardness around others, making it difficult for her to form relationships with other people.

[TEWR]

FrobergDK wrote...

She does succumb though. She succumbs in the fade, easily I might add.

She is adorable yes, but it hides an irresponsible use of magic at every turn. She scares the living crap out of me.

Appreciate your reasoning though, I see all that as valid points - but to their 'good' qualities outweigh the sheer destruction they cause? Surely blowing up the chantry and raining fire and brimstone down upon Kirkwall will negate any healing Anders may have done. Merrill doesn't even bother with getting to know the local elves, because she believes herself to be above them.

Sure hold it against Merrill when everyone is mind controlled in the Fade, including the Dwarf.

There's nothing inherently evil about blood magic. The Joining is blood magic, the phylacteries the Templars use are blood magic (imo altered by lyrium to make them glow), blood magic can be used medicinally, and Merrill makes it a point to only use her blood.

Contrary to popular belief, blood magic is like any other magic. The magic isn't evil. The person behind it when they abuse the magic is, and Merrill never abuses it.

And Merrill does get to know the local elves. She and Nyssa are friends, which means that she's known amongst the Alienage and she's friends with them.

[Dave2380]

I'm not particularly keen on Anders, but i love Merrill.

Because she's actually doing what she believes is her duty. She was raised among the Dalish as a First, she was going to be a Keeper. The duty of a Keeper is not only to watch over her clan but to rediscover as much of the lost lore of the Dalish as possible.

I get that Marethari was spooked by losing Tamlen and Mahariel to the Eluvian's taint but at the end of the day it was a Dalish artifact and she abandoned it completely due to fear. Did she even consider looking into ways to purify it or rebuild it? No, she declared it was cursed and a lost cause and should be forgotten. In essence she turned her back on a valuable piece of Dalish magic out of fear and superstition.

Merrill didn't. She remained true to the ideals of a Dalish Keeper. To restore as much of the lost lore of her people as she could. She made the deal with Audacity to learn blood magic yes, but let's look what she actually did with it, she cleansed a corrupted mirror shard and the Keepers fear and superstition meant that Merrill felt she had to leave the clan to pursue her work.

On a side note i stand firm on my conviction that Blood Magic is just a tool. I know i'm going to get a lot of flak from this but arguably any form of magic can be misused. A Templar's cleanse ability can be used whilst a mage is healing someone and disrupt the spell. That's a Chantry sanctioned ability that's been misused and ended up hurting, maybe even killing someone. When it comes down to it a sword is a tool but no one's banning them in Thedas, despite the fact that you can lop someone's head off with one.

But i digress. Merrill believes so strongly in her duty as a First that she's ready to live with the suspicion of her people and leave her clan, all in order to restore one lost piece of their lore. She doesn't waver in her conviction as long as you support her, she's even willing to risk her life to try and reconstruct the Eluvian. Even going so far as to bring Hawke and company along to kill her if she is possessed by Audacity and grows a meat-jacket and becomes an abomination.

Of course this is when Keeper Marethari interferes, showing an alarming lack of faith in Merrill's abilities, presumably the abilities she instructed her in. Marethari turned her back on her as a Keeper regarding the Eluvian. Despite the fact that Merrill proved she could cleanse the Eluvian shard with blood magic.

Merrill stuck to her duty and her core values, she remained morally untainted by the blood magic she used. And that's why i like her. She was essentially crapped on by her Keeper, her clan, constantly put down by Anders and Fenris, neither of whom had room to complain, one being a pseudo-demonic Abomination and one being an amoral thug who rips out his enemies hearts. And she still stuck to her core values and retained her innocence to boot.

That's why i like Merrill.

[naledgeborn]

Someone had a little too much coffee this morning.

[FrobergDK]

The "believes herself to be above them" bit was based on her dialogue - she says she hardly ever looked on them because they weren't proper elves, or something to that effect.

[jlb524]

Zjarcal wrote...

I liked Merrill because every time she got lost she stopped by my house and teached me how to frolick like a Dalish. It is to her that my Hawke owes her frolicking skills. How could I not love her? 

Oh yea, I forgot about that one.

Xilizhra wrote...

She just needs some tough love.

**** this.

Modifié par jlb524, 22 octobre 2011 - 04:19 .

[dgcatanisiri]

FrobergDK wrote...

The "believes herself to be above them" bit was based on her dialogue - she says she hardly ever looked on them because they weren't proper elves, or something to that effect.

Isn't that something she says when she first moves to the alienage? It's a Dalish belief that the city elves have turned their backs on what little remains of elven culture. It's how she was raised to believe, and she outgrows it in her time there.

[Vit246]

Well, Merrill never sacrifices others for blood magic and only ever uses her own blood. And what exactly is it that she's "done"? She's not the one who got the bright of idea of directly releasing the pride demon from its perfectly functioning prison, unlike the Keeper. The Keeper, for all her claims that the demon would've used the repaired Eluvian to escape its prison, never explained to Merrill exactly how that would happen. She feared Merrill would release the demon, so she decides to release the demon herself and hope Merrill and the others would kill it? It would've more sense to kill Merrill instead. Merrill is not to blame for the Keeper's idiocy.

Anders, well, he's a helpful guy. Magically healing refugees in Kirkwall for free and risking discovery by the Chantry and Templars. Anders destroying the Chantry makes plenty of sense, because it is the Chantry who is ultimately in charge of their own Templar military arm and the Circle mages. I would prefer not to elaborate in this post since there is a lot of detail to cover and this thread is about Merrill and Anders.

You can actually report Anders to Cullen, but nothing ever happens from it. There is no such thing as real choice in this game.

[FrobergDK]

No choice indeed.. the dialogue seems highly misleading as well.. The short dialogue options rarely turn out as I expect.

Now, I may have missed something - but does blood magic not require an actual deal with a demon to be struck? Merrill says she communicates with the demon when she does her thing - to me that's just a no-no.

I sympathise with the plight of the mages - but with all the blood mages around it's no wonder that the templars are on edge.
I would also like it if some sort of reprieve was to be had by actually finishing the legacy DLC - since it seems that magister has been influencing Kirkwall directly for ages.

At any rate - I think it's a valid point that the PC should have some option to report the possessed mage, and the blood mage - if only from a role-playing perspective.

Reg. Isabella - well, her having secrets is just expected - and she always comes back in my playthroughs.. possibly because I invariably end up in the sack with her.

Modifié par FrobergDK, 22 octobre 2011 - 04:36 .

[RagingCyclone]

I can emphasize with the OP to an extent.

Anders is a combination that should have never happened. For all the talk of selfless devotion to the cause of freeing mages the simple act of their joining together was a selfish act. Several times in Awakening Justice mention how he should not be in the mortal world. The fact that he agrees to joining with Anders is a change in the character. That joining turns the Anders/Justice character that loses touch with rational thought. Several times Hawke can show him that he was wrong or acting on wrong assumptions and yet still continues on his simple path of destruction in the end. He acts in the end not by what might be the best solution, but on what he wants to happen. A selfish act.

Merrill is also selfish in her reasoning. Several times she mentions missing Tamlen and knows the mirror was the source for his disappearance. If you import a Dalish warden she mentions both. She rationalizes her desire to fix the mirror to find her lost friend or at least to find out what happened to him. All of the other speeches about finding more on elven history, that she is right and everyone else is wrong are all rationalizations for her to continue fixing the mirror. Where many see her being selfless and doing her duty I think are missing on some key points that she mentions about her true motivations. These become more apparent in her rivalry path.

These being said about the mage companions beyond the sibling...all of the companions are selfish in their motivations. I am guessing the OP did not have Isabela leave at the end of Act 2 and never come back. Or Fenris' betrayal when siding with the mages.

Point being all of the companions have selfish reasoning for what they do. It's also a part of real life nature to act on one's own wants and needs. Some companions will be like by some players and disliked by others. And by roleplaying different Hawke's that may change from game to game. I have liked all of the companions through the different playthroughs I have made, and disliked all of them as well...when and how I felt about them depended on the Hawke I was playing at the time. And basing opinions on the Fade? As has been mentioned all can and will betray Hawke...with the exception of Anders because he isn't...Anders. In 6 playthroughs only once have I had nobody betray Hawke...and don't ask me how because I have no idea how it happened.

In the end you are going to like and dislike the companions to varying degrees. That you have these mean that you felt something on some level while playing the game. Some you will like more than others, and vice versa. Just remember that other players will have different viewpoints than yourself.

[Xilizhra]

Now, I may have missed something - but does blood magic not require an actual deal with a demon to be struck? Merrill says she communicates with the demon when she does her thing - to me that's just a no-no.

She only communicated with it once, to learn blood magic. She doesn't need to to use it.

I sympathise with the plight of the mages - but with all the blood mages around it's no wonder that the templars are on edge.
I would also like it if some sort of reprieve was to be had by actually finishing the legacy DLC - since it seems that magister has been influencing Kirkwall directly for ages.

The fact that the city is a Tevinter sacrificial glyph didn't help any.

Where many see her being selfless and doing her duty I think are missing on some key points that she mentions about her true motivations. These become more apparent in her rivalry path.

Oh, the one where Hawke is emotionally abusing her? You believe that'll get a more accurate picture?

[AlexXIV]

Well that's more or less one of the purposes of DA2. To get people to dislike mages. Actually it is to sympathise with the templars more, but this didn't work as well as getting people to hate mages. Even if I don't agree with everything in the OP I see where it comes from.

[TEWR]

FrobergDK wrote...

No choice indeed.. the dialogue seems highly misleading as well.. The short dialogue options rarely turn out as I expect.

Now, I may have missed something - but does blood magic not require an actual deal with a demon to be struck? Merrill says she communicates with the demon when she does her thing - to me that's just a no-no.

Blood magic was banned by the Andrastian Chantry long ago and books on the subject were either locked away or burned. The only known surefire way to learn blood magic is from a demon because the arcane is eternal in the Fade (see Torpor saying "It's rare to see two forgotten magicks in one day").

Blood magic itself though doesn't draw its power from demons. It draws its power from the physical realm, something demons have no say over.

It's my belief -- and the games help support this -- that a blood mage who becomes too arrogant in their power is more prone to possession because they let their guard down. This is something Merrill isn't. She knows to be extremely careful with her blood magic.

Also, she's only dealt with Audacity 3 times:

1) with Marethari in the short story
2) to learn blood magic, which afterwards didn't require her to deal with him anymore
3) when Marethari became a hypocritical abomination

I sympathise with the plight of the mages - but with all the blood mages around it's no wonder that the templars are on edge.

Blame Bioware for wanting to make everyone a sodding lunatic.

I would also like it if some sort of reprieve was to be had by actually finishing the legacy DLC - since it seems that magister has been influencing Kirkwall directly for ages.

he couldn't have been influencing Kirkwall. By Legacy's own lore he can only influence people who have the taint in their bodies. Having him also being able to influence Kirkwall would not only be breaking lore but also be incredibly stupid because then Bioware relied on a big, bad magical evil thing to explain something that would've been more interesting had it been caused by human nature.

That codex is one Warden's speculation, and should not be taken as fact.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 octobre 2011 - 04:44 .

[FrobergDK]

Raging; please don't take my questions as being a hammer I'm putting to those who do like those characters, that is not my intent.

I think my main gripe is having my choice taken away from me. I don't feel like I am in control of anything when I play DA2 - the first one accomplished that much more efficiently, hell, even Mass 2 does it better.

Then again, I may simply be yearning for the good old Baldurs Gate days.

I have never had Isabella leave, never to return - but Fenris has turned on me twice whilst saving the mages. The first time I sided with the mages because my sister was forced in to the chantry, and meredith is bat-**** crazy. The second time I just did it for the bat-**** crazy bit, and because I was playing as a mage.

I tend to play RPG's as if I was actually in the PC's position. Hence my choices and the outcomes invariably end up being somewhat similar. I do switch it up and do everything in the polar opposite way at times - just to see what could have been.

I just feel that in DA and DA:O - I had much more freedom when it came to actions, dialogue options and the resulting results from said actions and choices.

[jlb524]

Vit246 wrote...
She feared Merrill would release the demon, so she decides to release the demon herself and hope Merrill and the others would kill it? It would've more sense to kill Merrill instead. Merrill is not to blame for the Keeper's idiocy.

It actually would have made more sense for Marethari to tell Merrill the demons plans with the eluvian as soon as she found out.   But she waits until after she's possessed to do so?  wtf

FrobergDK wrote...

Reg. Isabella - well, her having secrets is just expected - and she always comes back in my playthroughs.. possibly because I invariably end up in the sack with her.

So, b/c it's 'expected' she gets off the hook for you?

It's not if she comes back or not, but the fact that the situation got to the point of open war with the qunari because she kept information to herself for three years about why the heck they were there.

Modifié par jlb524, 22 octobre 2011 - 04:51 .