135 réponses à ce sujet

[FrobergDK]

Oh I agree, Act 2 beats all others!

Funny thing though; I flippin' loved Anders in Awakening - maybe it's partly my sadness at seeing both him and Justice (another great character) being.. misused this way. The Anders my warden had with him, and the Justice he kicked darkspawn arse with, would not "merge" to prevent injustices against mages - not in my minds eye at least.

[AlexXIV]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

So to Xilzhra and AlexXIV---when you say she more dedicated and not selfish in her need to fix the mirror, are you basing these opinion solely on DA2, or also taking into account how she is in Origins?

She didn't have a personality in Origins, something directly stated by the devs. You can glean nothing of her motivations from that.

Really? Which dev stated that? Because she does indeed have a personality in Origins. She is more focussed and forthwright as a first to Marethari. Much more objective especially when you first enter the cave. So are they saying that is not evident of a personality trait? Or that they chose to ignore that altogether?

I'd say it's too thin. The origin story does not make sense to me anyway. Doesn't really belong here, but in the origin story the keeper sends the warden and Merrill to look for Tamlen. After 2 days it is suddenly urgent to find him. She let 2 days pass even though she could have went there with Duncan, or sent someone with Duncan. I don't give much to the dalish origin in general, even though my warden is dalish origin. You can of course assume that she is so eager because of Tamlen, but I think in DA2 it is made clear that she wants to recover knowledge about the ancient elves of Arlathan rather than looking for someone, who is by the way dead. My warden met Tamlen in the camp and put him out of misery. I don't think it is much about Tamlen really, it's not like Merrill could hope to do anything for Tamlen. Especially since my warden returned to her people between DA:O and DA:A. At least that's what I was led to believe. So there would have been the point Merrill learned what happened to Tamlen if she wanted to know and ask the Warden.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 octobre 2011 - 05:25 .

[FrobergDK]

jlb524 wrote...

FrobergDK wrote...

Actually, I care greatly about how elves are treated - and want them to return to their former glory, as it were. I think my main gripe is that the mage/templar bit is the sole and all-overshadowing plot device for the entire duration of the game. It's in almost every quest, in one way or another. 

Then I don't understand why you are so hard on Merrill...Marethari should be the one who receives your ire.

I agree that I would have liked to see more stuff relating to elves.   However, the mage/templar conflict was the most immediate issue in Kirkwall given Meredith and how she ran the Circle.

What about the Fereldan refugee / everyone else conflict? As Hawke rose up, I would have liked more of a chance to improve upon the lot of the impoverished in Kirkwall. I always make a point of donating five sovereigns to the Fereldan refugees.

[RagingCyclone]

jlb524 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...
When you step outside the box and take an objective view she mentions several times that she misses Tamlen and wants to find out what happened to him after his contact with the mirror. She even at one point wonders if he is still alive. Those are her true motivations. 

Her original motivation was to figure out what happened to Tamlen/Mahariel.  She states that at some point she gave up on the idea that Tamlen would still be alive and thus gives up on that.  She still decides to continue working on the mirror for the sake of restoring lost history.

Both motivations are selfless.

None of the companions act for selfless reasons. I wonder if you perhaps have her on too high a pedestal. I am not saying that being selfish in this is a good or bad thing, but a flaw that all people have, both in the game and in real life. My favorite companion in the entiretly of DA is Leliana, and as much as I love her character she has flaws like everyone else, and selfish acts of her own. It doesn't make me like her less but better understand her character. By not recognizing that Merrill has selfish reasoning means to miss out on some of her character.

[TEWR]

Actually, I care greatly about how elves are treated - and want them to return to their former glory, as it were. I think my main gripe is that the mage/templar bit is the sole and all-overshadowing plot device for the entire duration of the game. It's in almost every quest, in one way or another.

1) No sadly it wasn't everywhere.
2) It was done horribly, so I can't fault a person for hating it. So was Hawke's "Rise to Power" for that matter.

[FrobergDK]

Raging; I wholeheartedly agree on the Leliana bit. I like her portrayal in DA2 - only, she should still be using a bow damnit.. (Sacred Ashes video haunts me still!)

@ Ethereal ; It should've been named "Hawke's Rise to Fortune."

Power.. well.. level-wise, sure - but I don't see the refugee hawke having much power at all..

Modifié par FrobergDK, 22 octobre 2011 - 05:32 .

[AlexXIV]

RagingCyclone wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...
When you step outside the box and take an objective view she mentions several times that she misses Tamlen and wants to find out what happened to him after his contact with the mirror. She even at one point wonders if he is still alive. Those are her true motivations. 

Her original motivation was to figure out what happened to Tamlen/Mahariel.  She states that at some point she gave up on the idea that Tamlen would still be alive and thus gives up on that.  She still decides to continue working on the mirror for the sake of restoring lost history.

Both motivations are selfless.

None of the companions act for selfless reasons. I wonder if you perhaps have her on too high a pedestal. I am not saying that being selfish in this is a good or bad thing, but a flaw that all people have, both in the game and in real life. My favorite companion in the entiretly of DA is Leliana, and as much as I love her character she has flaws like everyone else, and selfish acts of her own. It doesn't make me like her less but better understand her character. By not recognizing that Merrill has selfish reasoning means to miss out on some of her character.

It's not so unusual to idolize a character. But if it is a well written character, it should have good and bad sides.

[jlb524]

RagingCyclone wrote...
None of the companions act for selfless reasons. I wonder if you perhaps have her on too high a pedestal. I am not saying that being selfish in this is a good or bad thing, but a flaw that all people have, both in the game and in real life. My favorite companion in the entiretly of DA is Leliana, and as much as I love her character she has flaws like everyone else, and selfish acts of her own. It doesn't make me like her less but better understand her character. By not recognizing that Merrill has selfish reasoning means to miss out on some of her character.

Of course she has selfish reasons too.  I've never stated that she didn't.

For instance, focusing on 'her elves' (Dalish) and not the others (City Elves) is selfish.  Part of what motivates her might also be to prove Marethari wrong (also selfish).

Motivations are often complex.  The motivations discussed have been selfless.  I still would label her as a selfless person in general.

It's not black/white selfless/selfish.

Modifié par jlb524, 22 octobre 2011 - 05:32 .

[AlexXIV]

jlb524 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...
None of the companions act for selfless reasons. I wonder if you perhaps have her on too high a pedestal. I am not saying that being selfish in this is a good or bad thing, but a flaw that all people have, both in the game and in real life. My favorite companion in the entiretly of DA is Leliana, and as much as I love her character she has flaws like everyone else, and selfish acts of her own. It doesn't make me like her less but better understand her character. By not recognizing that Merrill has selfish reasoning means to miss out on some of her character.

Of course she has selfish reasons too.  I've never stated that she didn't.

For instance, focusing on 'her elves' (Dalish) and not the others (City Elves) is selfish.  Part of what motivates her might also be to prove Marethari wrong (also selfish).

Motivations are often complex.  The motivations discussed have been selfless.  I still would label her as a selfless person in general.

Well she puts it as if she is the only one in danger, denying the fact that if a demon took her over it could kill her whole tribe. Just saying. She is not really honest to herself if she really believes that her actions are just her business alone. And it is a sign of selfishness if you just disregard other people's safety in the persuit of your goals.

[FrobergDK]

jlb524 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...
None of the companions act for selfless reasons. I wonder if you perhaps have her on too high a pedestal. I am not saying that being selfish in this is a good or bad thing, but a flaw that all people have, both in the game and in real life. My favorite companion in the entiretly of DA is Leliana, and as much as I love her character she has flaws like everyone else, and selfish acts of her own. It doesn't make me like her less but better understand her character. By not recognizing that Merrill has selfish reasoning means to miss out on some of her character.

Of course she has selfish reasons too.  I've never stated that she didn't.

For instance, focusing on 'her elves' (Dalish) and not the others (City Elves) is selfish.  Part of what motivates her might also be to prove Marethari wrong (also selfish).

Motivations are often complex.  The motivations discussed have been selfless.  I still would label her as a selfless person in general.

It's not black/white selfless/selfish.

Maybe one should see Marethari as a mother to Merrill, for all intents and purposes. There is nothing she would not do to protect her - even if it means laying down her own life.

[TEWR]

FrobergDK wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...
None of the companions act for selfless reasons. I wonder if you perhaps have her on too high a pedestal. I am not saying that being selfish in this is a good or bad thing, but a flaw that all people have, both in the game and in real life. My favorite companion in the entiretly of DA is Leliana, and as much as I love her character she has flaws like everyone else, and selfish acts of her own. It doesn't make me like her less but better understand her character. By not recognizing that Merrill has selfish reasoning means to miss out on some of her character.

Of course she has selfish reasons too.  I've never stated that she didn't.

For instance, focusing on 'her elves' (Dalish) and not the others (City Elves) is selfish.  Part of what motivates her might also be to prove Marethari wrong (also selfish).

Motivations are often complex.  The motivations discussed have been selfless.  I still would label her as a selfless person in general.

It's not black/white selfless/selfish.

Maybe one should see Marethari as a mother to Merrill, for all intents and purposes. There is nothing she would not do to protect her - even if it means laying down her own life.

Hard for me to see Marethari as anything other than a hypocritical and idiotic woman considering she turned the entire clan against Merrill by Act 2 by spreading baseless lies about Merrill.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe one should see Marethari as a mother to Merrill, for all intents and purposes. There is nothing she would not do to protect her - even if it means laying down her own life.

The kind of mother who winds up killing their own children, maybe.

[Cobra's_back]

Xilizhra wrote...


Oh, the one where Hawke is emotionally abusing her? You believe that'll get a more accurate picture?

I had her 75% friendship and didn't give her the mirror tool Arulin Holm. That gave me 175% rivalry points. It’s very immature to say that a person is torturing someone because they rival them. It was an act of friendship to withhold the item. The goal was to save Merrill’s life. In the Fade, there is an order of how your companions fail the test. Check Dragon Age Wiki for details. When facing the pride demon, Merrill is first to fall, second Fenris and last Varric. When faced with the Desire demon the order is always Isabella then Aveline. You can go through the fade and lose only one person Merrill if you bring the following (Fenris, Merrill and Varric). After the fade I made Merrill laugh about it. She was really comforted. None of three is affected by the Desire Demon.

Per Jennifer Helper the writer, Merrill is the sweet naïve virginal love interest. Comments found quoted in the Grey Warden site. Per my Dragon age collector’s guide, Merrill walks a tightrope. She has made a demonic pact to acquire powers of forbidden magic hoping that she can restore the mirror. That is how she is described. Saying yes to everything a friend asks isn’t a good friend.
A good friend is willing to take a slap in the face if it saves the friend she cares about. Considering all the bad things that happen around Hawke, you would think Hawke would prefer to be cautious.  In Act 3, questioning beliefs she thanks my Hawk. I never had to belittle her. I just had to get her to see the mirror was dangerous.  
 

[FrobergDK]

I honestly think she tried to make Merrill abandon the blood magic by threatening to take away all she knew.. tough love - as some have mentioned.

Really, she does require a proper spanking.

[RagingCyclone]

jlb524 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...
None of the companions act for selfless reasons. I wonder if you perhaps have her on too high a pedestal. I am not saying that being selfish in this is a good or bad thing, but a flaw that all people have, both in the game and in real life. My favorite companion in the entiretly of DA is Leliana, and as much as I love her character she has flaws like everyone else, and selfish acts of her own. It doesn't make me like her less but better understand her character. By not recognizing that Merrill has selfish reasoning means to miss out on some of her character.

Of course she has selfish reasons too.  I've never stated that she didn't.

For instance, focusing on 'her elves' (Dalish) and not the others (City Elves) is selfish.  Part of what motivates her might also be to prove Marethari wrong (also selfish).

Motivations are often complex.  The motivations discussed have been selfless.  I still would label her as a selfless person in general.

It's not black/white selfless/selfish.

The better question is, as with all things, what is the single motivation to doing it...because in reality there usually is only one motivation...the core reason. All the rest you mention as motivations are actually rationalizations by the individual.

[AlexXIV]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...
None of the companions act for selfless reasons. I wonder if you perhaps have her on too high a pedestal. I am not saying that being selfish in this is a good or bad thing, but a flaw that all people have, both in the game and in real life. My favorite companion in the entiretly of DA is Leliana, and as much as I love her character she has flaws like everyone else, and selfish acts of her own. It doesn't make me like her less but better understand her character. By not recognizing that Merrill has selfish reasoning means to miss out on some of her character.

Of course she has selfish reasons too.  I've never stated that she didn't.

For instance, focusing on 'her elves' (Dalish) and not the others (City Elves) is selfish.  Part of what motivates her might also be to prove Marethari wrong (also selfish).

Motivations are often complex.  The motivations discussed have been selfless.  I still would label her as a selfless person in general.

Well she puts it as if she is the only one in danger, denying the fact that if a demon took her over it could kill her whole tribe. Just saying. She is not really honest to herself if she really believes that her actions are just her business alone. And it is a sign of selfishness if you just disregard other people's safety in the persuit of your goals.

That's why she brought Hawke; because if she was going to get possessed, Hawke could kill her and stop anyone from getting hurt. Hawke was basically going to be like a templar at a Harrowing.

And if Hawke says no she tells you that she is going anyway, even without Hawke.

[TEWR]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...
None of the companions act for selfless reasons. I wonder if you perhaps have her on too high a pedestal. I am not saying that being selfish in this is a good or bad thing, but a flaw that all people have, both in the game and in real life. My favorite companion in the entiretly of DA is Leliana, and as much as I love her character she has flaws like everyone else, and selfish acts of her own. It doesn't make me like her less but better understand her character. By not recognizing that Merrill has selfish reasoning means to miss out on some of her character.

Of course she has selfish reasons too.  I've never stated that she didn't.

For instance, focusing on 'her elves' (Dalish) and not the others (City Elves) is selfish.  Part of what motivates her might also be to prove Marethari wrong (also selfish).

Motivations are often complex.  The motivations discussed have been selfless.  I still would label her as a selfless person in general.

Well she puts it as if she is the only one in danger, denying the fact that if a demon took her over it could kill her whole tribe. Just saying. She is not really honest to herself if she really believes that her actions are just her business alone. And it is a sign of selfishness if you just disregard other people's safety in the persuit of your goals.

That's why she brought Hawke; because if she was going to get possessed, Hawke could kill her and stop anyone from getting hurt. Hawke was basically going to be like a templar at a Harrowing.

Really there was nothing to fear at all. Merrill makes clear to a Hawke that picks the aggressive option in the discussion that begins the quest that she has no intention of freeing Audacity from the statue (where he was bound for centuries and would continue to be so). She just didn't know what might happen by going to see him directly, so she asked Hawke to come along just incase something untowards happened.

[jlb524]

RagingCyclone wrote...

The better question is, as with all things, what is the single motivation to doing it...because in reality there usually is only one motivation...the core reason. All the rest you mention as motivations are actually rationalizations by the individual.

Why does their only have to be one?  Especially when these multiple motivations don't even conflict.

Unless you mean the strongest one.

In Merrill's case, it was 'find out what happened to Tamlen/Mahariel' then that turned into 'restore lost history for the Dalish'.

I'm not sure what is this 'real' motivation that you only find out on the rival path that you keep referring to.

FrobergDK wrote...

Maybe one should see Marethari as a mother to Merrill, for all intents and purposes. There is nothing she would not do to protect her - even if it means laying down her own life. 

I would like to, except that none of her actions from Act 2 on jive well with that.

Modifié par jlb524, 22 octobre 2011 - 05:47 .

[AlexXIV]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...
None of the companions act for selfless reasons. I wonder if you perhaps have her on too high a pedestal. I am not saying that being selfish in this is a good or bad thing, but a flaw that all people have, both in the game and in real life. My favorite companion in the entiretly of DA is Leliana, and as much as I love her character she has flaws like everyone else, and selfish acts of her own. It doesn't make me like her less but better understand her character. By not recognizing that Merrill has selfish reasoning means to miss out on some of her character.

Of course she has selfish reasons too.  I've never stated that she didn't.

For instance, focusing on 'her elves' (Dalish) and not the others (City Elves) is selfish.  Part of what motivates her might also be to prove Marethari wrong (also selfish).

Motivations are often complex.  The motivations discussed have been selfless.  I still would label her as a selfless person in general.

Well she puts it as if she is the only one in danger, denying the fact that if a demon took her over it could kill her whole tribe. Just saying. She is not really honest to herself if she really believes that her actions are just her business alone. And it is a sign of selfishness if you just disregard other people's safety in the persuit of your goals.

That's why she brought Hawke; because if she was going to get possessed, Hawke could kill her and stop anyone from getting hurt. Hawke was basically going to be like a templar at a Harrowing.

And if Hawke says no she tells you that she is going anyway, even without Hawke.

Really? I didn't know that, I always accept the quest. What happens if she goes alone?

Don't know either, I usually romance Merrill, so I go with her. Just tried to avoid the Merethari death in one playthrough but it failed. I think it bugged anyway, so I went with the normal playthrough and we killed the keeper ...

[jlb524]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well she puts it as if she is the only one in danger, denying the fact that if a demon took her over it could kill her whole tribe. Just saying. She is not really honest to herself if she really believes that her actions are just her business alone. And it is a sign of selfishness if you just disregard other people's safety in the persuit of your goals.

Right...but then again I am not claiming she's purely selfless.

You could say she's also selfish towards Hawke that's in a romance by asking her to kill her if she turns into an abomination. She doesn't have as much regard for Hawke's feelings as she probably should. Then again, interpersonal relations aren't her strong point.

She's far from perfect, but my point still remains that her main motivation is selfless, even if it's in a sea of other motives that aren't or if she engages in selfish acts in order to obtain her goal.

[LobselVith8]

FrobergDK wrote...

Now, I don't.

In DA2 the only mage I don't want to promptly kill, that I can recruit in to my party, is Bethany. All others deserve to die immediately. The second I found out about Anders' plot, I wanted to lop off his head right then and there - or at least report him to the templars. 

You can report Anders to Cullen, he simply doesn't do anything about it. See for yourself.

FrobergDK wrote...

Merrill is more of the same. I do not care for her, her excuses nor her blood magic. I wanted a way of saving the Keepers life, and ending hers. Why do I not get to kill her as punishment for what she's done? Report her to the Templars? Anything?! 

You know who else uses blood magic? Grey Wardens. Duncan references that some Grey Warden mages use blood magic to combat the darkspawn, and the Joining can be viewed as blood magic. I don't see any reason to dislike Merrill when she doesn't abuse her abilities, and acts responsibly.

FrobergDK wrote...

I'm rambling now, so I'll wrap this up.. but those of you who do like Merrill and Anders - can you offer up some reasons for it? I simply do not see the appeal.

Merrill is a good person. She is a learned scholar of the arcane arts. She is Dalish, so she doesn't have the same view as Andrastians do about the Fade or magic. She is skilled enough to know that Kerran isn't possessed, and she is able to distinquish what type of abomination the possessed Profane really is.

While Merrill is trying to reconstruct the Eluvian, her goal is to help the People, who have been in a downward spiral for centuries since the loss of the Dales and the kingdom of Arlathan. She is willing to die for the chance to give her people technology that could irrevocably transform their way of life for time immemorial.

[General User]

Something Merrill says after Marathari dies and you go back to the Dalish camp stuck with me. She says, that if Hawke were not with her, the rest of the Clan would kill her.

If I could choose, I'd have remanded Merrill to her Clan and let them decide her fate. Have it be a little scene were whether Merrill lives or dies depends on whether Hawke is willing to speak up for her or not. A bit like a cross between that scene when leaving the cave and Isabela's deal with the Arishok, only more final.

I also think that, if the player refuses to help Anders plant his bomb, Anders should have become unavailable as a teammate.

[FrobergDK]

jlb524; It kind of seems like you're contradicting yourself now.. how can a plethora of selfish acts be justified in the pursuit of a single selfless one?