135 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

jlb524 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Well she puts it as if she is the only one in danger, denying the fact that if a demon took her over it could kill her whole tribe. Just saying. She is not really honest to herself if she really believes that her actions are just her business alone. And it is a sign of selfishness if you just disregard other people's safety in the persuit of your goals.

Right...but then again I am not claiming she's purely selfless.

You could say she's also selfish towards Hawke that's in a romance by asking her to kill her if she turns into an abomination. She doesn't have as much regard for Hawke's feelings as she probably should. Then again, interpersonal relations aren't her strong point.

She's far from perfect, but my point still remains that her main motivation is selfless, even if it's in a sea of other motives that aren't or if she engages in selfish acts in order to obtain her goal.

Well yeah, I never disputed this. At least I didn't mean to. Just some people seem to fall a bit easy for her 'innocence'. I usually romance her anyway, and my Hawke would go through hell with her if need be. But at no point does my Hawke believe that she is always right, or innocent. She is a very dedicated person who should not be underestimated. In more than one way.

[Cobra's_back]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe one should see Marethari as a mother to Merrill, for all intents and purposes. There is nothing she would not do to protect her - even if it means laying down her own life.

The kind of mother who winds up killing their own children, maybe.

You don’t have a clue about parenting. Parents, the good ones, would give their life for their children. I find your comments impertinent. Marethari never touched Merrill. Marethari was trying to protect her the best way she could. Saying yes to everything is a poor excuse for friend or parent.
 

[FrobergDK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You can report Anders to Cullen, he simply doesn't do anything about it. See for yourself.

Holy ****, thank you for that! That is... the worst.. my God - I didn't realize the BW folks were THIS lazy. They put the option there but do NOTHING against it?! What the hell!?

Now I'm just upset. Thank you so much for sharing ít though. I never took Anders after learning of his plots - at all - I just figured that I had to wait for the inevitable.

Modifié par FrobergDK, 22 octobre 2011 - 06:00 .

[LobselVith8]

FrobergDK wrote...

She does succumb though. She succumbs in the fade, easily I might add.

Everyone succumbs in "Night Terrors" except for Hawke, because The Plot Dictates. It's the same reason Hawke can warn Cullen about Anders with the Knight-Captain brushing aside the warning.

FrobergDK wrote...

She is adorable yes, but it hides an irresponsible use of magic at every turn. She scares the living crap out of me.

Irresponsible? Merrill uses her magic responsibly. Simply because Merrill pursues the construction of a two thousand year old elven device that may be able to improve the lives of every elf across the continent doesn't make her irresponsible.

FrobergDK wrote...

Appreciate your reasoning though, I see all that as valid points - but to their 'good' qualities outweigh the sheer destruction they cause? Surely blowing up the chantry and raining fire and brimstone down upon Kirkwall will negate any healing Anders may have done. Merrill doesn't even bother with getting to know the local elves, because she believes herself to be above them.

There's no basis for such a statement. Merrill does get to know the local elves - bring Merrill along in "On the Loose" and you'll see Merrill has made friends in the Alienage.

[FrobergDK]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe one should see Marethari as a mother to Merrill, for all intents and purposes. There is nothing she would not do to protect her - even if it means laying down her own life.

The kind of mother who winds up killing their own children, maybe.

You don’t have a clue about parenting. Parents, the good ones, would give their life for their children. I find your comments impertinent. Marethari never touched Merrill. Marethari was trying to protect her the best way she could. Saying yes to everything is a poor excuse for friend or parent.
 

Well, turning the whole clan against Merrill, to the point where they got slaughtered in an attempt to murder her, was certainly poor parenting. If not to Merrill, then to the rest of the clan who are now dead.

To be fair, they only died in one of my playthroughs.

Modifié par FrobergDK, 22 octobre 2011 - 06:06 .

[LobselVith8]

FrobergDK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You can report Anders to Cullen, he simply doesn't do anything about it. See for yourself.

Holy ****, thank you for that! That is... the worst.. my God - I didn't realize the BW folks were THIS lazy. They put the option there but do NOTHING against it?! What the hell!?

Now I'm just upset. Thank you so much for sharing ít though. I never took Anders after learning of his plots - at all - I just figured that I had to wait for the inevitable. 

No problem. I don't think that scene makes anyone happy, especially given what Cullen endured in Ferelden. It simply makes no sense, especially with Anders standing right next to Hawke.

[FrobergDK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

FrobergDK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You can report Anders to Cullen, he simply doesn't do anything about it. See for yourself.

Holy ****, thank you for that! That is... the worst.. my God - I didn't realize the BW folks were THIS lazy. They put the option there but do NOTHING against it?! What the hell!?

Now I'm just upset. Thank you so much for sharing ít though. I never took Anders after learning of his plots - at all - I just figured that I had to wait for the inevitable. 

No problem. I don't think that scene makes anyone happy, especially given what Cullen endured in Ferelden. It simply makes no sense, especially with Anders standing right next to Hawke.

It kind-of smells like cut content..

[Xilizhra]

[quote]ghostbusters101 wrote...

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...


[quote]Maybe one should see Marethari as a mother to Merrill, for all intents and purposes. There is nothing she would not do to protect her - even if it means laying down her own life.[/quote]
The kind of mother who winds up killing their own children, maybe.[/quote]



You don’t have a clue about parenting. Parents, the good ones, would give their life for their children. I find your comments impertinent. Marethari never touched Merrill. Marethari was trying to protect her the best way she could. Saying yes to everything is a poor excuse for friend or parent.
 



[/quote
I'm not convinced that Marethari wasn't trying to get Merrill killed by the varterral, and she definitely wasn't doing any sort of good job for anyone during Acts 2 and 3. Manipulating her clan to turn against Merrill especially...

[TheCreeper]

There are a number of things that smell like cut content in the third part.

[Heather Cline]

DA2 was rushed. The game was handled poorly, forced out in the first quarter of 2011 and so on. Cut content and a more than likely cut 4th act is probably what happened. There isn't much we can do about it.

[jlb524]

FrobergDK wrote...

jlb524; It kind of seems like you're contradicting yourself now.. how can a plethora of selfish acts be justified in the pursuit of a single selfless one?

I'm not using those acts to justify it, but the potential outcome of the end goal.  In this case, restoring lost elven lore/magic.  I'm ultimately focused on the big picture and not on the details.

I'd say it's probably impossible to do anything without acts that can be labeled as 'selfish'.

AlexXIV wrote...

Well yeah, I never disputed this. At least I didn't mean to. Just some people seem to fall a bit easy for her 'innocence'. I usually romance her anyway, and my Hawke would go through hell with her if need be. But at no point does my Hawke believe that she is always right, or innocent. She is a very dedicated person who should not be underestimated. In more than one way.

Yeah...I friendromance her but I don't think that necessarily equals 'You are 100% right in everything you do, Merrill!  Oh, you're so cuuuuuuuuuute!'.

My Hawke and her still disagree on some things but ultimately supports her endeavor to restore the mirror.  She agrees with Merrill that it's worth it.

Heather Cline wrote...

DA2 was rushed. The game was handled poorly, forced out in the first quarter of 2011 and so on. Cut content and a more than likely cut 4th act is probably what happened. There isn't much we can do about it.

Right, and some of the companion content seems unfinished.  Anders and Merrill especially.

With Merrill, you can barely speak to her after the incident with her clan in Act 3.

With Anders, you can't discuss the bombing incident at all considering you are fighting in a mini-war.

With someone like Fenris, it seems his story gets some closure, IMO anyway.

It's like they need a 4th Act to finish off some of these companion story arcs.  

Modifié par jlb524, 22 octobre 2011 - 06:41 .

[Cobra's_back]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]ghostbusters101 wrote...

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...



[quote]Maybe one should see Marethari as a mother to Merrill, for all intents and purposes. There is nothing she would not do to protect her - even if it means laying down her own life.[/quote]
The kind of mother who winds up killing their own children, maybe.[/quote]



You don’t have a clue about parenting. Parents, the good ones, would give their life for their children. I find your comments impertinent. Marethari never touched Merrill. Marethari was trying to protect her the best way she could. Saying yes to everything is a poor excuse for friend or parent.
 



[/quote
I'm not convinced that Marethari wasn't trying to get Merrill killed by the varterral, and she definitely wasn't doing any sort of good job for anyone during Acts 2 and 3. Manipulating her clan to turn against Merrill especially...
[/quote]


You and I see this very differently. She knew Hawke would protect Merrill. Marethari is the Keeper of the Clan she fulfilled her job to the clan. They demand she informs them of trouble. If the Pride Demon got out it would be big trouble for their clan. Merrill is described whether you want to understand or not as “naïve”. It does state clearly she has made a “demonic pact” in the official guide.
In Act 3, I’m positive the Pride Demon would have taken Merrill and Marethari sacrificed her life for her. Hawke doesn’t want Merrill dead. That is why Hawke tries to talk her out of it. If you haven’t noticed the game has a ton of tragic events going on around Hawke. This is one of those events. Marethari sacrificed herself for Merrill.
If she was the mother type that killed her children, she would have given her the tool and sent her to the mountain by herself to face the Pride Demon.
 

[Xilizhra]

If she was the mother type that killed her children, she would have given her the tool and sent her to the mountain by herself to face the Pride Demon.

But that second part is exactly what she did. There was no warning, no telling the clan that there might be demon-related problems coming soon, no anything. She waited until they were isolated, followed them up to the cave and hulked out... and I suspect Audacity could only summon those ghost archers inside Pride's End.

[AlexXIV]

FrobergDK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

FrobergDK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You can report Anders to Cullen, he simply doesn't do anything about it. See for yourself.

Holy ****, thank you for that! That is... the worst.. my God - I didn't realize the BW folks were THIS lazy. They put the option there but do NOTHING against it?! What the hell!?

Now I'm just upset. Thank you so much for sharing ít though. I never took Anders after learning of his plots - at all - I just figured that I had to wait for the inevitable. 

No problem. I don't think that scene makes anyone happy, especially given what Cullen endured in Ferelden. It simply makes no sense, especially with Anders standing right next to Hawke.

It kind-of smells like cut content..

Lol ... well sometimes I am glad I didn't see everything yet. To Cullen's defense, he is a lyrium addict and that's probably making his mind feeble.

[Cobra's_back]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe one should see Marethari as a mother to Merrill, for all intents and purposes. There is nothing she would not do to protect her - even if it means laying down her own life.

The kind of mother who winds up killing their own children, maybe.

You don’t have a clue about parenting. Parents, the good ones, would give their life for their children. I find your comments impertinent. Marethari never touched Merrill. Marethari was trying to protect her the best way she could. Saying yes to everything is a poor excuse for friend or parent.
 

Well, turning the whole clan against Merrill, to the point where they got slaughtered in an attempt to murder her, was certainly poor parenting. If not to Merrill, then to the rest of the clan who are now dead.

She didn't cause that. Remember she died. Her motive was to save Merrill and the clan by not letting the Pride Demon out. She told Hawke not to let her out. She knew Hawke could handle it. I knew per my DA2 guide that I could tell the clan I would be responsible for Merrill and none of them died. Only Marethari died. As I left with Merrill the elves state that Marethari cared more for Merrill than them.

[Xilizhra]

She didn't cause that. Remember she died. Her motive was to save Merrill and the clan by not letting the Pride Demon out. She told Hawke not to let her out. She knew Hawke could handle it. I knew per my DA2 guide that I could tell the clan I would be responsible for Merrill and none of them died. Only Marethari died. As I left with Merrill the elves state that Marethari cared more for Merrill than them.

If true, Marethari's "caring" was deeply dysfunctional.

[Cobra's_back]

Xilizhra wrote...

If she was the mother type that killed her children, she would have given her the tool and sent her to the mountain by herself to face the Pride Demon.

But that second part is exactly what she did. There was no warning, no telling the clan that there might be demon-related problems coming soon, no anything. She waited until they were isolated, followed them up to the cave and hulked out... and I suspect Audacity could only summon those ghost archers inside Pride's End.

There is nothing in the guide that supports your statement at all. There is no logic in your statement. She did warn the Clan that is why they feared Merrill. The guide and all supporting documentation point to Merrill being too naive to know how to stay out of trouble. The writer gave you clear info. on this. It appears you want to make up your own story. I don't support that the person who gave their life up for love should be characterized in this manner.

[Huntress]

Well OP I used not to like mages, in dragon age origens it took me like 2 months to finish 1 mage ( who is my main canon for da2) now am totally in love with them, I had made few rogues and working very hard on one warrior she is lvl 23.. yes I do not like 2h warriors or sword and shield there are totally garb.. bad.. for my style anyway i have made in da2 like 10 mages ( lvl 24) 2-3 rogues( lvl 24) and 90% of the warriors never got to be lvl 7 well except one..lol.

[Xilizhra]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If she was the mother type that killed her children, she would have given her the tool and sent her to the mountain by herself to face the Pride Demon.

But that second part is exactly what she did. There was no warning, no telling the clan that there might be demon-related problems coming soon, no anything. She waited until they were isolated, followed them up to the cave and hulked out... and I suspect Audacity could only summon those ghost archers inside Pride's End.

There is nothing in the guide that supports your statement at all. There is no logic in your statement. She did warn the Clan that is why they feared Merrill. The guide and all supporting documentation point to Merrill being too naive to know how to stay out of trouble. The writer gave you clear info. on this. It appears you want to make up your own story. I don't support that the person who gave their life up for love should be characterized in this manner.

I'd agree if I saw anyone who actually did give up their life for love.

[Cobra's_back]

Xilizhra wrote...

She didn't cause that. Remember she died. Her motive was to save Merrill and the clan by not letting the Pride Demon out. She told Hawke not to let her out. She knew Hawke could handle it. I knew per my DA2 guide that I could tell the clan I would be responsible for Merrill and none of them died. Only Marethari died. As I left with Merrill the elves state that Marethari cared more for Merrill than them.

If true, Marethari's "caring" was deeply dysfunctional.

All data points to the fact that If Marethari wasn’t there, Merrill would have been taken by the Pride Demon. Merrill would have been able to fight off the Pride Demon like she fought the Pride Demon in the fade. She and Isabella are the weakest in the team when it comes to Demons (per the guide and Wiki).

[FrobergDK]

Huntress wrote...

Well OP I used not to like mages, in dragon age origens it took me like 2 months to finish 1 mage ( who is my main canon for da2) now am totally in love with them, I had made few rogues and working very hard on one warrior she is lvl 23.. yes I do not like 2h warriors or sword and shield there are totally garb.. bad.. for my style anyway i have made in da2 like 10 mages ( lvl 24) 2-3 rogues( lvl 24) and 90% of the warriors never got to be lvl 7 well except one..lol.

Rogues are my favorite for DA2.. Warriors are, as you say, sluggish and slow. DPS wise - rogues are beastly! 

[TEWR]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If she was the mother type that killed her children, she would have given her the tool and sent her to the mountain by herself to face the Pride Demon.

But that second part is exactly what she did. There was no warning, no telling the clan that there might be demon-related problems coming soon, no anything. She waited until they were isolated, followed them up to the cave and hulked out... and I suspect Audacity could only summon those ghost archers inside Pride's End.

There is nothing in the guide that supports your statement at all. There is no logic in your statement. She did warn the Clan that is why they feared Merrill. The guide and all supporting documentation point to Merrill being too naive to know how to stay out of trouble. The writer gave you clear info. on this. It appears you want to make up your own story. I don't support that the person who gave their life up for love should be characterized in this manner.

They feared Merrill for one reason: pure idiocy.

Marethari told them Merrill would bring back the taint from the shard of the Eluvian and corrupt them all. But that's a blatant lie. Mahariel was tainted but he didn't spread the taint around. When someone becomes tainted, they don't spread it around.

Then she has the audacity to tell Merrill she should return to a clan that now thinks she's a monster and fears her greatly. You truly think that she should've gone back? If she was tainted -- which she wasn't -- then ceasing contact with the Eluvian shard wouldn't magically make her not be tainted anymore. It would still spread within her body and she'd eventually become a Ghoul like Tamlen.

If she was tainted, Anders and a Grey Warden sibling would've been able to sense the taint in her body like Duncan was able to with Mahariel. But they don't because it's not there. The shard was cleansed and Merrill made this clear with Marethari several times.

The fact that she goes 7 years without being tainted when other Dalish Elves were tainted by the shards 2.5 years after Origins should be proof enough.

Marethari turned the clan against Merrill and then wanted her to return with the thought process that everyone would live a happy ending. But either the clan would despise and fear Merrill or they would despise the Keeper for lying to the clan about what Merrill was doing to get Merrill to return.

[Xilizhra]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She didn't cause that. Remember she died. Her motive was to save Merrill and the clan by not letting the Pride Demon out. She told Hawke not to let her out. She knew Hawke could handle it. I knew per my DA2 guide that I could tell the clan I would be responsible for Merrill and none of them died. Only Marethari died. As I left with Merrill the elves state that Marethari cared more for Merrill than them.

If true, Marethari's "caring" was deeply dysfunctional.

All data points to the fact that If Marethari wasn’t there, Merrill would have been taken by the Pride Demon. Merrill would have been able to fight off the Pride Demon like she fought the Pride Demon in the fade. She and Isabella are the weakest in the team when it comes to Demons (per the guide and Wiki).

If Marethari wasn't there, Audacity would have just given up on Merrill. And attempting to blame Merrill for being mind controlled in the same way everyone else is is laughable.

[TEWR]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She didn't cause that. Remember she died. Her motive was to save Merrill and the clan by not letting the Pride Demon out. She told Hawke not to let her out. She knew Hawke could handle it. I knew per my DA2 guide that I could tell the clan I would be responsible for Merrill and none of them died. Only Marethari died. As I left with Merrill the elves state that Marethari cared more for Merrill than them.

If true, Marethari's "caring" was deeply dysfunctional.

All data points to the fact that If Marethari wasn’t there, Merrill would have been taken by the Pride Demon. Merrill would have been able to fight off the Pride Demon like she fought the Pride Demon in the fade. She and Isabella are the weakest in the team when it comes to Demons (per the guide and Wiki).

Wryme made it clear that he was more powerful than Audacity:

I am the greatest of my kind. Whatever tricks your little pet has taught you will pale in comparison to my glory!

And Merrill made it clear that she had no intention of freeing Audacity from his prison, since he could only be freed by a powerful magic spell. We don't even know if Merrill knew what type of spell would free Audacity, but we do know that Marethari knew.