95 réponses à ce sujet

[Lakhi]

Bleachrude wrote...

 As the title says, I'm curious as to why two obvious topics (to me anyway) get so little love in fanfiction circles.

1. Anora and alistair (with or without Loghain surviving)
Other than Jessica Jones pride and parity/love and levirate there _IS_ no other fanfic that crosses the 5k word threshold on fanfiction.net. Hell, there's more Morrigan/Alistair and Loghain/Cousland fanfics that this "official" matchup...

2. Loghain and alistair together in party.
Sure, it's an AU but an AU that at LEAST had more official support in it than other discarded plot threads (we can actually find recorded conversation between the two than say the "Cailan is going to marry Celene" plot bunny). Yet to my knowledge, there is only maybe a couple 3k-5k word fanfics that explore this?

What gives?

I *ahem* have given some thought to the latter one only so that I can dragon my warden into DAII when my story gets there.... 

Modifié par Lakhi, 27 octobre 2011 - 06:25 .

[Klidi]

Merilsell wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Really, Morrigan/Alistair makes as much sense as Fenris/Anders.

Some people really really like matchmaking characters who hate each other for some reason.

Word.

Nothing personal, but I loathe Morrigan/Alistair - pairing-FF's with a fiery passion. Then again, I have never understood and never will understand people's fascination with pairing characters up who obviously hate each other. I mean, it doesn't make any...sense and is totally OOC, imo. 

I think it all depends on how it's written. I normally don't like 'rivalmance', but 'hate' is very strong word... and their quarrels can be interpreted in many different ways.
I believe good author can make sense of that, too and keep the characters IC. (Like Suilven. Did you read Unrequited, with Alistair/Morrigan, for example? I can only recommend it.)

[ejoslin]

While "hate" IS a strong word, in addition to the banters between Morrigan and Alistair, both Alistair and Morrigan make comments to the warden about how much they dislike the other. Including Alistair calling her a complete and total b!tch.

[Klidi]

Yes. But that might also be because they are still both immature and unsure in their feelings. Also - opposites attract. It's all just the matter of view, and a good author can make it plausible and IC.
Two of my friends were like that, in fact. Nobody right in their heads would put them together. And yet he proposed her. She was 18, he 19, and they had never been on date before. She was outraged and said she would rather die than marry such total idiot, oaf with the IQ of a rocking horse and a killjoy with zero sense of humour. To choose some of the nicer things.
Four and half years later they had a wedding. And they're together now for almost ten years.
Love is a strange business.

[ejoslin]

Ah, it's one thing for opposites to attract -- my husband and I are complete opposites -- and it's another to actively dislike someone. Because while everything about my husband and me is different, we still love and respect each other. And honestly, I would hope and exchange like you described with your friends was between friends who were kidding with each other.

Alistair really does not like nor trust Morrigan and would be happy to see her go. He acknowledges her beauty, yes, but he also finds everything else about her repugnant. They were written in such a way that it was supposed to be clear that they just really do not like each other at all. And in fact, their mutual dislike for each other is so strong that Morrigan doesn't even try to flirt with Alistair despite NOT being in his good graces hurts her plans.

People of course can write good fiction based on Morrigan and Alistair being attracted to each other, but that was not the intent of their creator and their dialog is not supposed to suggest a hidden attraction. That doesn't mean someone can't put an attraction there and run with it and make it a plausible story in its own right.

Edit: Grammar.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 octobre 2011 - 03:52 .

[Addai]

Klidi wrote...
I think it all depends on how it's written. I normally don't like 'rivalmance', but 'hate' is very strong word... and their quarrels can be interpreted in many different ways.
I believe good author can make sense of that, too and keep the characters IC. (Like Suilven. Did you read Unrequited, with Alistair/Morrigan, for example? I can only recommend it.)

Since DG has said that the two really do dislike each other immensely, I don't see how this could be written in-character.  Unless we're talking drunken stupor sex.  And of course there's nothing that says you have to write IC fanfiction, if you don't care about the original author's intent.  There's certainly a lot of fanfiction out there of that type.  Either way, it's not interesting to me, but whatever cracks someone's walnuts...

[Klidi]

'In character' means in line with the characters as the reader sees them in the text, not as they were imagined in the author's head. And that can be (and in most times, is) different.

The moment the readers start reading the text, they start to participate on construction of the meaning - by their experience, views, connotations that words and scenes bring, cultural environment, education, experience as readers and many other things. The final text is as not only product of the original author, it's theirs as well. That's why the author has no right to tell the readers they are wrong, that he meant it other way. No. All the author can do is try to make thing in the text as clear as possible - and pray the readers get it the way he wanted.

Sometimes, even the same person can understand things differently, when they read the text again, after some time. In fact, that is what makes the book good. The books that can be understood and interpreted in only one way - well, there's no need to read them again and they are quickly forgotten.

Besides, isn't that what fanfiction is - transforming the original work in a way that wasn't intended by the author, filling in the gaps, unanswered questions and expectations? Every fanfiction is 'alternative universe'. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have any sense to write it. Why should some romances be exceptions?

 

Modifié par Klidi, 27 octobre 2011 - 05:12 .

[Addai]

Well, this is a philosophical debate. I'm conservative in that I try to hew to what the original writers intend, as far as that can be discerned, and I don't enjoy reading fanfiction that strays too far from canon. What "too far" entails is obviously subjective. Morrigan + Alistair and Fenris + Anders are both, as far as I'm concerned, beyond the pale for anything but crack AU.  I couldn't take it seriously.

Thus for me, the sort of fanfiction I write and enjoy is an attempt to hew closely to what the original writers intended. I take into account not just the in-game dialogue but the developer comments on characters' motivations and personalities.  I do believe the original creator has final say on a character.  Of course different people like different things. For some, an approach like that would not be "creative" enough.

To get back to the OP a bit, I would not be able to buy a story that had Alistair and Anora falling in love and playing happy families. The most I could see them doing is establishing a good working relationship. To me that would not be interesting enough in itself to write a long story about. There would have to be something else going on.

Modifié par Addai67, 27 octobre 2011 - 05:51 .

[Klidi]

You can try to hew what the original writers intend, but in most cases you can't be sure if you got it right. Most of the authors can't - and won't - give you the explanation. So it's down to personal opinion and preferences. DA may be exception, with Gaider explaining many things, but still, once the reader reads the text, it's also theirs.

The author has no more say about it than, for example, a fashion designer of your clothes has about the colours and combinations you can wear with it. If you know it, you can respect it and dress as closely to his idea as possible, but even that is your choice. And it doesn't mean those who don't do it are doing it wrong, or are 'less creative'. It means only that their choice was different.

So for me, it really depends only on the preferences and skills of the author of  the fanfiction story. If they can write a story in which Alistair and Anora have a good working relationship, which slowly grows into something more, I won't condemn it just because the pairing is AU.

Same for any pairing and any characters. I don't like Loghain, for example, and I can't imagine any of my Wardens in romance with him - yet I follow Loghain/Amell story, where Alistair is in a happy marriage with Anora, and it's one of the best at FFN, because the characters are IC and it's very well written. But to see that, I had to overcome my prejudices against Loghain and read it. And I'm glad I did.:happy:







.

[Addai]

Klidi wrote...
The author has no more say about it than, for example, a fashion designer of your clothes has about the colours and combinations you can wear with it.

This is where it's philosophical and where I disagree.  The author always has more control than the reader, in my view of literature.  The real character exists only in their imagination.   So for me, if Gaider says "nah, not happening," that settles it.  And in fact for Morrigan and Alistair, he's all but said that.

Same for any pairing and any characters. I don't like Loghain, for example, and I can't imagine any of my Wardens in romance with him - yet I follow Loghain/Amell story, where Alistair is in a happy marriage with Anora, and it's one of the best at FFN, because the characters are IC and it's very well written. But to see that, I had to overcome my prejudices against Loghain and read it. And I'm glad I did.:happy:.

It's not really a matter of liking the characters.  I like both Alistair and Morrigan, but I'm not going to buy any story that has them falling for one another.

With Alistair and Anora... I just can't see it, either, especially if Loghain is alive.  No knock on that ff writer, since I haven't read theirs, but I just don't see that setup as plausible.  Maybe I am too stuck on Alistair + Warden as OTP.

[Klidi]

Addai67 wrote...

This is where it's philosophical and where I disagree.  The author always has more control than the reader, in my view of literature.  The real character exists only in their imagination.   So for me, if Gaider says "nah, not happening," that settles it.  And in fact for Morrigan and Alistair, he's all but said that.

Hm... Interesting. But what about the books where the author is already dead? f what you said was true, it would be impossible to read and enjoy them, because the
'real' characters would die with them.

What will remain is the text. Or game, in this case. It will remain the same as it is now, it will be still real.

Besides, can something that exists in imagination be real? Imagination can change. Gaider's today idea of Alistair is different than it will be in thirty years. It is inevitable, beause people change, their views change, they forget, etc. And in the end it would vanish, after Gaider's death.

So for me, 'real' Alistair isnot anyone's imagination. 'Real' Alistair is  what is in the text. That is where he exists and will exist, even when he's not in Gaider's mind any more, or after his death. 

It is a construct, fictional character in fictional world, that is independent on its creator and given it to disposal of readers/players. They all perceive this construct in some way, that may differ from its model that is in Gaider's imagination - only the base in text remains the same.

The 'control' lies wtihin the text - if reader's interpretation is correct, is measured by in how much loyal it is to the text; but so is the author's, and in case he decides to write sequel, it must be consistent with what is in the first text.

But that's just how I see it. Everyone is free to their own interpretations, of course. :happy:

[Addai]

I know what you're saying, but it's kind of useless to talk in hypotheticals. DG is still kicking and we have the rare opportunity to actually read his commentary on his characters. That does mean there will be surprises. I had my Theirin love knocked back a peg by his revelation at PAX that Cailan really was about to dump Anora for Celene, for instance. It opened the door for me to write what I did about Loghain, Cailan and Anora so I learned to deal with it. lol

I'm probably an outlier, anyway. Most people seem to like a looser definition of AU and I probably tune my bull**** meter too high. I'm just saying the Ali and Morri true love story wouldn't work for me. I'd also have a hard time with Anora and Alistair, though maybe, maaaaybe I could see that, if it is done very subtly.

[Bleachrude]

Here's a question.

Should out of game/novel knowledge be actually incorporated/considered canon? For example, you list DG stating that Cailan was going to dump Anora, but my understanding was that this was a very early draft and the ONLY hint of it was the letters (which themselves dont hint at it UNLESS you have Loghain in your party)

Contrast that with say the "you could give Morrigan over to the Templars" which was coded in the toolset and/or Loghain and alistair together in party which made it as far as actual voice acting (which meant somebody STILL got paid even though it wasnt used in the final version...

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I have to agree with Addai about trying to stay true to the author's intent in keeping characters in character. While I also with Klidi to the extent that a lot of this can come down to our own perception and interpretations of these characters, Addai’s right that in the case of Dragon Age at least we have a lot of feedback from the character’s writers.

There seems little point to arguing that, for instance, Morrigan and Alistair could fall in love ‘based on our perceptions of DA:O’ if Gaider says it’d never happen. We as writers can complain all we like if our head canon has been destroyed, but our interpretations of someone else’s characters always have the potential to be wrong.

I'm probably an outlier, anyway. Most people seem to like a looser definition of AU and I probably tune my bull**** meter too high. I'm just saying the Ali and Morri true love story wouldn't work for me. I'd also have a hard time with Anora and Alistair, though maybe, maaaaybe I could see that, if it is done very subtly.

I think I might be in the same boat. I have strong impressions of how I think the NPCs should or shouldn’t act, and it breaks my immersion if they deter from my head canon too much (unless they’re *meant* to be OOC).

I could see Anora and a hardened Alistair together, so long as the relationship developed in a believable way.

@Bleachrude: IMO what happens in the game (not including coding bugs or stuff that is stated by devs to be a mistake) trumps stuff what was consciously cut. If it didn't happen in the game and wasn't meant to happen when it was released, it didn't happen.

However, this does not mean that stuff that isn't explicitly stated in the game itself isn't canon, if the potential is there. For instance, RtO supports the potential that Cailan was going to dump Anora and go for Celene. Even though this is never explicitly confirmed ingame, this doesn't mean it's not true. If a dev confirms our suspicions are correct, I would take it as canon.

[Addai]

Bleachrude wrote...

Here's a question.

Should out of game/novel knowledge be actually incorporated/considered canon? For example, you list DG stating that Cailan was going to dump Anora, but my understanding was that this was a very early draft and the ONLY hint of it was the letters (which themselves dont hint at it UNLESS you have Loghain in your party)

Contrast that with say the "you could give Morrigan over to the Templars" which was coded in the toolset and/or Loghain and alistair together in party which made it as far as actual voice acting (which meant somebody STILL got paid even though it wasnt used in the final version...

I don't think there's a "should," but I do take everything known about a character into account when I'm writing them.  In the example of Cailan, they put it into RtO because they wanted it in there somehow, and to me that says it's canon.  It happened to work for me as a dramatic hook so I ran with it.    In that example, since it wasn't laid out explicitly in the game, you could just as easily ignore it.  I don't think that means that anything goes as long as it's not contradicted, however.  For me it wouldn't, anyway.  I mean, it's possible that Sten and Wynne were shtupping in the bushes but I don't think the canon points in that direction...

Modifié par Addai67, 28 octobre 2011 - 02:57 .

[tklivory]

Addai67 wrote...
I mean, it's possible that Sten and Wynne were shtupping in the bushes but I don't think the canon points in that direction...

Oh, Maker, where's the mind bleach when you need it?

I've found some exercises in OOC FF to be interesting, like the ficlets some people have written of bizarro Alistair.  I am more forgiving of OOC moments if 1) it is later explained to be an understandable aberration from the norm or 2) it is clear that the author was deliberately doing it for a particular aesthetic or to accomplish a particular goal (like Darkspawn Chronicles, for example).

Going off for some mindbleach...

[maxernst]

Ehh...it's up to the writer to make us believe in the characters. In the case of Morrigan and Alistair, I do think hate is too strong. Alistair doesn't threaten to leave the Wardens if you don't kill Morrigan, nor does Morrigan chortle with glee if you have Alistair executed. They don't like each other and he doesn't trust her. Still, she initiates conversations more often with Alistair than she does with Leliana or Wynne, and it sometimes feels like they enjoy bickering with each other, almost in a sort of Beatrice and Benedict from Much Ado About Nothing sort of way.

I can't see it happening within the framework of DA:O, but in an AU where none of Duncan's recruits survived and Alistair was the only warden Flemeth rescued, Morrigan would be forced to get him to agree to take her with him and earn his trust if she wants to accomplish her mssion. I can imagine a sufficiently skilled writer might be able to take the characters as we know them at the start, have Morrigan forcing herself to try and understand Alistair, and maybe ultimately gain some grudging respect for him. Maybe. I think it's more plausible than Morrigan/Leliana, anyway.

There's also a certain level on which Anders/Fenris ought to work because the characters past experiences are so much alike. But they're both so pigheaded, you'd really need to do some serious work for them to see it.

It's interesting that a number of people cite Alistair in a gay relationship as being something they consider totally OOC, but Gaider himself has said "I don't have an issue with Alistair being made into an option for male characters. As someone pointed out, Alistair has no sexual experience with *anyone* by the time the game starts -- that doesn't necessarily make him gay, but it certainly doesn't indicate that he's strictly straight, either. Alistair received conservative teachings at the hands of the Chantry, I imagine, but it's an institution he's rejected. I'd say overall he's a fairly open-minded, sensitive guy. A relationship with someone he trusts is not that over the top." So authors don't necessarily view their characters as being as rigidly defined as some might think.

In any event, I see the author's intent as fundamentally inaccessible, and at least somewhat fluid. I know my views of my own characters change as I write. Maybe the author failed in the original text and wasn't consistent in characterization to start with. I would argue there are clear examples of this in DA2. Maybe the author left things deliberately ambiguous. I think most fanfiction writers want to be true to the characters, but what does that mean? I write the characters as I perceive them and as I imagine they might respond in different circumstances.

Modifié par maxernst, 28 octobre 2011 - 04:27 .

[tklivory]

@maxernst - Is being gay against Chantry teachings?  The only references I recall in the game that indicate an anti-homosexuality prejudice in Thedas are in the conversation where Zevran asks the Warden if they have a problem with the fact that he's slept with both men and women and you have an option where you can say that you're really uncomfortable with that fact.  I'm just curious, I always saw the game as fairly open in that regard.

There was a project here on BSN (though never finished) that was going to explore the idea of Alistair in a relationship with a male Warden not because he's gay, but because he is closer to the PC than he has ever been to anyone else in his whole life, and ends up sharing everything - including intimacy - with the male Warden.  I thought that basic premise to be believable.  I mean, even in the vanilla game he says that the intensity of his time with the PC probably accentuated his attraction to her, so why wouldn't the same hold true for the other side?

And as for a Morrigan/Alistair relationship, I don't see it not because it is the ebul, but because I think they have more a rival sibling relationship than anything else.  Perhaps if there was no PC (if Alistair was the only survivor), it might have developed as something else as you say, but in the game, they are to an extent jockeying for the PC's attention, so it strikes me as more bratty siblings. 

[maxernst]

tklivory wrote...

@maxernst - Is being gay against Chantry teachings?  The only references I recall in the game that indicate an anti-homosexuality prejudice in Thedas are in the conversation where Zevran asks the Warden if they have a problem with the fact that he's slept with both men and women and you have an option where you can say that you're really uncomfortable with that fact.  I'm just curious, I always saw the game as fairly open in that regard.

There was a project here on BSN (though never finished) that was going to explore the idea of Alistair in a relationship with a male Warden not because he's gay, but because he is closer to the PC than he has ever been to anyone else in his whole life, and ends up sharing everything - including intimacy - with the male Warden.  I thought that basic premise to be believable.  I mean, even in the vanilla game he says that the intensity of his time with the PC probably accentuated his attraction to her, so why wouldn't the same hold true for the other side?

And as for a Morrigan/Alistair relationship, I don't see it not because it is the ebul, but because I think they have more a rival sibling relationship than anything else.  Perhaps if there was no PC (if Alistair was the only survivor), it might have developed as something else as you say, but in the game, they are to an extent jockeying for the PC's attention, so it strikes me as more bratty siblings. 

As far as I know, the chantry doesn't have any issues with homosexuality--it certainly doesn't seem to be a concern for Leliana.  I'd seen that project before (in fact I lifted the David Gaider quote from it).

I agree with you that in general Morrigan/Alistair feels more like sibling rivalry than anything else.  Of course, there are theories that they might even be siblings. I'm just saying a skilled writer might be able to carry it off, having them start as the familiar characters we know and evolve into people who could fall in love.

[Addai]

I should clarify, I think a skilled writer can do a lot of things if they are willing to go way off the map, but personally I'm not interested in stories that are that far into AU. An Alistair and Morrigan who are in a romance with each other would not be Alistair and Morrigan anymore, for me. And since I like the characters as they are, that sort of story holds no interest for me. But some people do like that sort of free wheeling approach.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Addai67 wrote...

I should clarify, I think a skilled writer can do a lot of things if they are willing to go way off the map, but personally I'm not interested in stories that are that far into AU. An Alistair and Morrigan who are in a romance with each other would not be Alistair and Morrigan anymore, for me. And since I like the characters as they are, that sort of story holds no interest for me. But some people do like that sort of free wheeling approach.

That's kind of how I feel about the Alistair/Loghain slash. Even if it's a really good story, to me it's no longer an Alistair or a Loghain story, just a good fic about some blond kid and an older dude with braids in his hair.

[Corker]

maxernst wrote...

In any event, I see the author's intent as fundamentally inaccessible, and at least somewhat fluid. I know my views of my own characters change as I write. Maybe the author failed in the original text and wasn't consistent in characterization to start with. 

Hooboy, yeah. Or consistent in the worldbuilding.  Or sacrificed plausibility for gotcha moments.  Or...

Coming from a tabletop RPG background, I tend to treat it as MY sandbox now.  Obviously, there are certain conventions and expectations that come from setting a story in Thedas and potentially using some of the canon characters.  But I don't really treat canon - and especially supplemental material - as immutable gospel to honor.  (OMG how many really awesome game settings got the rot about halfway through their line of supplements?)  Which may make me a bad fanfic author, or at least rather arrogant.  

[maxernst]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I should clarify, I think a skilled writer can do a lot of things if they are willing to go way off the map, but personally I'm not interested in stories that are that far into AU. An Alistair and Morrigan who are in a romance with each other would not be Alistair and Morrigan anymore, for me. And since I like the characters as they are, that sort of story holds no interest for me. But some people do like that sort of free wheeling approach.

That's kind of how I feel about the Alistair/Loghain slash. Even if it's a really good story, to me it's no longer an Alistair or a Loghain story, just a good fic about some blond kid and an older dude with braids in his hair.

Well, I have to admit one has to draw the line somewhere and Alistair/Loghain is a bit beyond the pale for me, even in an AU, unless it's an AU taking place before Ostagar..  I have a difficult time imagining them even tolerating each other as well as Alistair and Morrigan do.  I'm skeptical that even Shakespeare could make me believe in it.

[Klidi]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

There seems little point to arguing that, for instance, Morrigan and Alistair could fall in love ‘based on our perceptions of DA:O’ if Gaider says it’d never happen. We as writers can complain all we like if our head canon has been destroyed, but our interpretations of someone else’s characters always have the potential to be wrong.

 

Well, I think I will always disagree with that. If the author wants to say something about the characters, he has the opportunity in the text. Whatever he says afterwards can be only the suggestion.
Readers are free to accept it or ignore it.

Even if the author makes corrections that clarify it directly in the text in the later editions - there are quite a few books where readers and critics ignore the newer version, if they decide the changes made it actually worse. Once the text i out, it's too late to blame the readers they didn't get it right and that the author meant it in another way. Sorry.

[maxernst]

Klidi wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

There seems little point to arguing that, for instance, Morrigan and Alistair could fall in love ‘based on our perceptions of DA:O’ if Gaider says it’d never happen. We as writers can complain all we like if our head canon has been destroyed, but our interpretations of someone else’s characters always have the potential to be wrong.

 

Well, I think I will always disagree with that. If the author wants to say something about the characters, he has the opportunity in the text. Whatever he says afterwards can be only the suggestion.
Readers are free to accept it or ignore it.

Even if the author makes corrections that clarify it directly in the text in the later editions - there are quite a few books where readers and critics ignore the newer version, if they decide the changes made it actually worse. Once the text i out, it's too late to blame the readers they didn't get it right and that the author meant it in another way. Sorry.

I'm in agreement with you and I really believe that while individual readers may misunderstand a book, if significant numbers of readers collectively make the same "mistake", then the author got it wrong in the text.  It's something that fan-fic writers should keep in mind when railing about negative reviews.