95 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Klidi wrote...
Even if the author makes corrections that clarify it directly in the text in the later editions - there are quite a few books where readers and critics ignore the newer version, if they decide the changes made it actually worse. Once the text i out, it's too late to blame the readers they didn't get it right and that the author meant it in another way. Sorry.

Er, well, in this case I think it is pretty clear in the text that Alistair and Morrigan truly dislike each other.  I also don't think it's an author's fault that people in fandom have a tendency to sexualize everything (warning, soapbox) and prefer to avoid a plain reading in favor of "yeah but all that animosity really just means they secretly want to DO EET."

Edit:  I will say, on balance, that Gaider seems to prefer leaving things more open-ended himself.  He sometimes prefaces his forum comments that way, i.e. "feel free to ignore this."  I can see the value for that in that game writing is different than other kinds of writing, and the player should have a lot of rein.  Since I tend to consume game stories more like novels, though, his comments do color the story for me.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 octobre 2011 - 06:48 .

[Merilsell]

Addai67 wrote...

I should clarify, I think a skilled writer can do a lot of things if they are willing to go way off the map, but personally I'm not interested in stories that are that far into AU. An Alistair and Morrigan who are in a romance with each other would not be Alistair and Morrigan anymore, for me. And since I like the characters as they are, that sort of story holds no interest for me. But some people do like that sort of free wheeling approach.

Yep, this, very much. Once more I have to agree with Addai. Which is the reason why I avoid such stories like the devil the holy water, no matter how well they are written. I just don't buy it. Also they are far out my comfort zone and thus not enjoyable for me to read, when my mind screams "Brain bleach brain bleach" everytime I see that pairing. Even more than for Alistair/Morrigan stories is that valid for every Alistair/Loghain slash- FF I encounter. There might be well written stories of both of... that, but I rather prefer to ignore their existance and quickly press the back button of my browser. People are free to do the same with my story, however *shrugs* 

As for Anora/Alistair, I can't see them going beyond a professional, respectful relationship for the sake of Ferelden but not going lovey dovey. It just doesn't seem to fit, considering their personalities, idk.

Who knows, maybe I'm just too stuck on teh Warden/Alistair romance in my head already. Though I can live with that burden, lol.

[Klidi]

Addai67 wrote...

Er, well, in this case I think it is pretty clear in the text that Alistair and Morrigan truly dislike each other.  I also don't think it's an author's fault that people in fandom have a tendency to sexualize everything (warning, soapbox) and prefer to avoid a plain reading in favor of "yeah but all that animosity really just means they secretly want to DO EET."

Edit:  I will say, on balance, that Gaider seems to prefer leaving things more open-ended himself.  He sometimes prefaces his forum comments that way, i.e. "feel free to ignore this."  I can see the value for that in that game writing is different than other kinds of writing, and the player should have a lot of rein.  Since I tend to consume game stories more like novels, though, his comments do color the story for me.

Um, sorry, but it is clear to you. To other people, it is obviously not. And that people do this pairing because they just want them 'do eet' - sorry, that's just a blanket generalisation.

After all, characters can develop and gradually change their attitude to some things or persons... even rude and ****y persons... right, Merilsell?

I like DA very much and I finally ordered the novels - they are not sold here, but I admit one of the reasons I didn't to it before is exactly the way some people here forcing their views and ways of reading his stories, together with all the 'correct' conclusions, because 'Gaider said so'. If I can't have my own opinion, there's no point to read it, for me. So thanks for that edit note. Now I'm really glad I ordered those novels.
Freedom to everyone! That's what I'm saying. Within the limits of the original text  and well written, of course.

[DreGregoire]

I don't read fanfiction because I want it to be true to my perceived game canon, pc canon, or select universe. I read fanfiction for one of two reasons.

One: to see how other creative writers have taken the game and made it into a story that shows how they perceived things in their roleplay of the character in game and to see how they have managed to change things to mesh with their own idea of what happened.

Two: to see how a person can take their perception and run with it in any and all directions.

I seriously doubt I am the only player who imagined a conversation with a NPC in game that was not part of the games programming. Would I have an interest in anything involving the mentioned pairings, not at this time because I haven't even imagined such a thing while playing my game, but that doesn't mean that I didn't think that Alistair and Morrigan would have made a downright interesting pair, or that Alistair and the Queen couldn't become a productive unit. I'm not touching Loghain with Alistair’s twirling pike though. *grins*

I refuse to get up in arms about somebody writing in a manner that I perceive as against canon or against how I perceive any companion or npc. No two people are likely to perceive every situation in the same way, so I have no issue with any match of any character or any npc.

David Gaider has been great sharing much of his vision that wasn't shown in the game and he and other devs have been kind enough to even tell us things that had been cut that they wish had been in the game. I'm not saying that people should read things they don't find interesting. I don't agree that it is reasonable to say to somebody that there is no way that so and so would be together; therefore, their idea or story is not a true possiblity.

IMO, game canon is in game events that are not impacted by the pc; pc canon is anything in game that involves interaction (decisions, dialog) with the pc; and anything that is about events outside of the game is AU to one degree or another.


P.S. Alistair is a flirt no matter who you are. Does he mean anything by it? Probably not at the time. Even I, playing as a male the first time (first playthrough ever on PS3), was like... what? Did he just? Nah... I must have imagined it. Load previous save... replay. Dang he did just flirt. *shrugs* And this was long before I even knew you could romance anybody in Dragon Age, I had hoped for it but... LOL!

Modifié par DreGregoire, 29 octobre 2011 - 04:51 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

DreGregoire wrote...

I seriously doubt I am the only player who imagined a conversation with a NPC in game that was not part of the games programming.

This was precisely what generated my fic: all those not-in-game conversations that I couldn't get out of my head.

P.S. Alistair is a flirt no matter who you are. Does he mean anything by it? Probably not at the time, but even I playing as a male, the first time (first game too), was like... what? Did he just? Nah... I must have imagined it. Load previous save... replay. Dang he did just flirt. *shrugs* And this was long before I even knew you could romance anybody in Dragon Age, I had hoped for it but... LOL!

Absolutely. My first PC was a female so I assumed (knowing that Alistair was supposed to be strictly a hetero LI) that the flirtiness was because of that. Then I got a friend of mine into the game and his M!Surana started hearing the same kind of Alistair dialogue with the same inflections and tone of voice --and he had the same reaction you did! "Wait --did he just --I would swear he was-- all right, seriously. If this was RL, one of us would be in the other's tent by now."

[DreGregoire]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

P.S. Alistair is a flirt no matter who you are. Does he mean anything by it? Probably not at the time, but even I playing as a male, the first time (first game too), was like... what? Did he just? Nah... I must have imagined it. Load previous save... replay. Dang he did just flirt. *shrugs* And this was long before I even knew you could romance anybody in Dragon Age, I had hoped for it but... LOL!

Absolutely. My first PC was a female so I assumed (knowing that Alistair was supposed to be strictly a hetero LI) that the flirtiness was because of that. Then I got a friend of mine into the game and his M!Surana started hearing the same kind of Alistair dialogue with the same inflections and tone of voice --and he had the same reaction you did! "Wait --did he just --I would swear he was-- all right, seriously. If this was RL, one of us would be in the other's tent by now."

"I've... no urge to rush into anything. We may not even survive what is to come, after all," stammers Alistair at the end of my fav lamppost conversation. Seriously? Who didn't consider that a challenge, if your pc swung that way? *smirks*

Modifié par DreGregoire, 29 octobre 2011 - 12:42 .

[Addai]

Klidi wrote...

Um, sorry, but it is clear to you. To other people, it is obviously not. And that people do this pairing because they just want them 'do eet' - sorry, that's just a blanket generalisation.

Right, well like I said, anything is possible.  It's just not plausible to me.  And the majority of justification- I could say, the only justification- I've heard for Alistair + Morrigan is that all that animosity is just proof of sexual tension.  Which incidentally I find to be pretty cliche', another reason I don't care for the idea.  Ditto for Fenders.

I like DA very much and I finally ordered the novels - they are not sold here, but I admit one of the reasons I didn't to it before is exactly the way some people here forcing their views and ways of reading his stories, together with all the 'correct' conclusions, because 'Gaider said so'. If I can't have my own opinion, there's no point to read it, for me. So thanks for that edit note. Now I'm really glad I ordered those novels.
Freedom to everyone! That's what I'm saying. Within the limits of the original text  and well written, of course.

Who's forcing?  People like different things, and if you want to ignore the game writers' interpretations of their own stuff then tally ho.  To me the author glosses are both fascinating and make the story better.*  There is also certainly a market for fanfiction that loosely interprets things.  I'd say a bigger selection than the kind of story I like.  I got critcism that my AU story wasn't AU enough, for instance.

Here's another example.  Recently Gaider said (hinted, anyway) that Fenris' owner had used Fenris in a sexual way, and he also said that he had a male PC in mind when writing the romance.  I had to adjust my idea of the story, but once I thought about it, those two bits of information made Fenris' story make sense in a way it hadn't before.  The things he's said about how gameplay considerations changed the story have sometimes been a real relief- because he's a good writer, and the way he explains things is always a better story than the game IMO.  Gameplay forces a kind of silliness sometimes.

I bet you'll like his novels.  I enjoyed them a lot.  

* Usually make it better.  With Gaider they do.  Now that I think about it, anything I've read Jennifer Hepler say about her characters has made me like them less.  So maybe I'm with you there.  lol

Modifié par Addai67, 29 octobre 2011 - 03:37 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Klidi wrote...

Well, I think I will always disagree with that. If the author wants to say something about the characters, he has the opportunity in the text. Whatever he says afterwards can be only the suggestion.
Readers are free to accept it or ignore it.

And I guess we will agree to disgree on the first statement.

As to the second, of course. It's not like the author can do anything about it.

Even if the author makes corrections that clarify it directly in the text in the later editions - there are quite a few books where readers and critics ignore the newer version, if they decide the changes made it actually worse. Once the text i out, it's too late to blame the readers they didn't get it right and that the author meant it in another way. Sorry.

Oh, like the Han Shot First debacle in Star Wars.

Just in case people aren't aware of it, there is a character called Han Solo who's pretty much a scoundrel and a mercenary. In the movie he first appears, he's cornered by a  bounty hunter set on bringing him in for failing to honour a bargain. In the original movie, Han shoots him at point blank range and escapes. In the revamped movie, the bounty hunter shoots first and misses (at fracking point blank range) and then Solo shoots him dead in honourable self defence.

Fans got really up in arms about this thing because they thought it was a huge characterisation killer for Han. They loved that he shot first because that's the sort of character the movie portrayed him as, such that it showed him growing from that point. People felt strongly enough it that they made t-shirts.

To the point though, of course authors can butcher their own characters as well as anyone else. And hey, if that happens I'm all for writing the characters 'the way I think they should be'.

But that doesn't mean I believe that just because a heap of people interpret whatever in a certain way means they're always right about it, no matter how many sparkling minds are involved in the deduction.

Anyway...just because I roll my eyes at stuff like Hermione/Malfoy porn because I think it's out of character doesn't mean I'm against people writing it, only that I probably never will. I'm certainly not meaning to establish any rules or etiquette about how fanfiction should be written (as if I could o_O), I just happen to get opinionated about characterisation. Maybe too much. *shrug*

[Addai]

Heh, never heard of the huge Han Solo characterization fracas. I love hearing about controversies in fandoms I pay no attention to. It's like a whole other set of drama.

Also- does anyone really expect characterization from George Lucas? Really??

I guess the canon snobs should make a club. Really it would make life easier to not care. Moreso with the Tolkien fandom than DA. Most forays into reading Tolkien ff have left me doubled over in pain.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 octobre 2011 - 03:42 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Addai67 wrote...

I guess the canon snobs should make a club. Really it would make life easier to not care. Moreso with the Tolkien fandom than DA. Most forays into reading Tolkien ff have left me doubled over in pain.

I avoid Tolkien ff altogether out of fear of such pain. Of course, I have trouble even reading the stuff of which Christopher Tolkien is the primary author, using his dad's notes and stuff. My DA off-canon tolerance is much higher --though I do, as I've said, have my limits.

[Bleachrude]

 Heh canon is really interesting in properties like SLAYERS.

There's the Slayers -anime canon.
There's the Slayers -manga canon.
There's the Slayers - novel canon.

You can imagine what reading so-called canon fanfics in Slayers is like...

[Klidi]

Bleachrude wrote...

 Heh canon is really interesting in properties like SLAYERS.

There's the Slayers -anime canon.
There's the Slayers -manga canon.
There's the Slayers - novel canon.

You can imagine what reading so-called canon fanfics in Slayers is like...

This is already happening to DA.
There is DAO - canon.
The novels canon - I haven't read them yet but apparently Loghain is portrayed quite differently there than in DAO
There is DA2 - canon.
There will apparently be web series canon.
And the comic book canon.

So the author of the fanfiction will be always breaking some canon. <_<

[maxernst]

Klidi wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

 Heh canon is really interesting in properties like SLAYERS.

There's the Slayers -anime canon.
There's the Slayers -manga canon.
There's the Slayers - novel canon.

You can imagine what reading so-called canon fanfics in Slayers is like...

This is already happening to DA.
There is DAO - canon.
The novels canon - I haven't read them yet but apparently Loghain is portrayed quite differently there than in DAO
There is DA2 - canon.
There will apparently be web series canon.
And the comic book canon.

So the author of the fanfiction will be always breaking some canon. <_<

There's also a tabletop RPG.  I would guess there's stuff in there, as well.  And they're adding to it all the time.  I was partway through Morrigan's daughter when Witch Hunt came out and blew my story into AU (or farther into AU, if you're not willing to accept the possibility of a bisexual Alistair).

@Addai67, just out of curiosity, is there any support in canon for the idea that Loghain was considering remarrying?  What would you do if David Gaider posted on the website that there was no way Loghain would ever remarry?

[Merilsell]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Anyway...just because I roll my eyes at stuff like Hermione/Malfoy porn because I think it's out of character doesn't mean I'm against people writing it, only that I probably never will. I'm certainly not meaning to establish any rules or etiquette about how fanfiction should be written (as if I could o_O), I just happen to get opinionated about characterisation. Maybe too much. *shrug*

Same here for all the Morrigan/Alistair stuff. If you enjoy that, who am I to say "no, it is wrong!" ? It is simply that I personally don't want to read it or find it very logical. But whatever floats people's boat *shrug*

@ Klidi: Sure, but then again Morrigan is not such a blank state as the Warden, so there are some...let's call it...restrictions how to write her, or it becomes OOC fast. The Warden, however, is (more or less) your character and you can take him/her and form his/her character wherever and however you like.

Just let us simply agree to disagree, right? You will never achieve to get me reading Morrigan/Alistair- lovey dovey stories.  At least not without a barrel of brain bleach handy

[Klidi]

Neither is Alistair. If he is able to change and develop, within some limits, of course, why should it be impossible for Morrigan?

Of course you don't have to read those stories. But I still say you miss a lot of good stories that don't need brain bleach at all and when both of them are IC. *shrugs*. But we all have to choose somehow what we read and what we don't, so if those are your criteria, it's absolutely fine with me. Freedom for everyone, as I said.

[Merilsell]

Well, I'm fairly certain that I miss out some well written Loghain stories, too. But then again I don't read them, because I have zero interest in this character, let alone to read a romance that resolves around Loghain. As said before, taste varies and I have many, many squicks and are picky when it comes to reading DA-Fanfiction. *shrug*

Modifié par Merilsell, 30 octobre 2011 - 02:24 .

[Bleachrude]

For me, I don't mind Loghain romance fanfics (Addai of course is fantastic) but I do find squicky Loghain/warden romance fanfics...

Mainly due the age gap. Yeah, I know in the time frame DA is modelled after, this would NOT be that big a deal due to both maturity being considered to happen at an easlier age AND wide age differences between older man and younger woman being acceptable but a romance between Addai's Cousland (who is mid to late 20s - contemporary of Cailan and Anora) I can deal with but the typical non dwarven warden who is roughly the same age as alistair (19-21)?

Yeah, that leaves me cold...

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Bleachrude wrote...

For me, I don't mind Loghain romance fanfics (Addai of course is fantastic) but I do find squicky Loghain/warden romance fanfics...

Mainly due the age gap. Yeah, I know in the time frame DA is modelled after, this would NOT be that big a deal due to both maturity being considered to happen at an easlier age AND wide age differences between older man and younger woman being acceptable but a romance between Addai's Cousland (who is mid to late 20s - contemporary of Cailan and Anora) I can deal with but the typical non dwarven warden who is roughly the same age as alistair (19-21)?

Yeah, that leaves me cold...

That, of course, assumes that the author sticks to accepted game canon and keeps their fic!Warden at the same age. I aged my Amell a few years for the precise reason that while I could potentially see a 26 year-old Warden with Loghain, given the right circumstances, a Warden just out of her teens squicked me as a LI for him.

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...
@Addai67, just out of curiosity, is there any support in canon for the idea that Loghain was considering remarrying?  What would you do if David Gaider posted on the website that there was no way Loghain would ever remarry?

What would I do with a story already finished?  Absolutely nothing.  :happy:   Loghain was not considering remarrying in my story, either.  If Gaider had said something along those lines, I imagine it would have affected me.  I was already reluctant to pursue the story line, but as I said it was actually Gaider's statements at PAX that supplied some of the plot.

@ Bleachrude, that's one reason I aged up my protagonist, also because it fit the political story line better.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 octobre 2011 - 07:53 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Klidi wrote...

The novels canon - I haven't read them yet but apparently Loghain is portrayed quite differently there than in DAO

FWIW, having read the novels recently, I didn't find Loghain portrayed differently. I thought the books supported his actions in the game somewhat.

[DreGregoire]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Klidi wrote...

The novels canon - I haven't read them yet but apparently Loghain is portrayed quite differently there than in DAO

FWIW, having read the novels recently, I didn't find Loghain portrayed differently. I thought the books supported his actions in the game somewhat.

I agree that in the novels Loghain is the same Loghain as the one in the game. In the game he appears to want to make more of a mark on the world and his ideas are much more cemented making him less flexible (that happens sometimes with age). He seems to have a hard time giving the youth of the day their own shot at glory. His basic character remains consistent between the novels and the game, IMO. That doesn't mean though that his younger self isn't more likeable than his game self, because in the game he makes some serious decisions and takes personal actions that impact the entire nation.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 01 novembre 2011 - 06:22 .