356 réponses à ce sujet

[seraphymon]

Joy Divison wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

 I could associate unwillingless to listen with alot of people on this forum.

Exacty.  It's an adult behavior.

But no i see it as ignorance, because she acted like it never posed a threat. To her it wasnt a risk really. She was so confident she could handle naything thrown at her. She wasnt aware of the tricks of the demon. Part of that could have been Marethari for not fully explaining everything, but then again it may have done no good if all Merril wants to do is stick her fingers in her ear and go la la la la

This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin.  Did you even play Act III?

Yes, multiple times. Which is why i said what i said. And that doesnt make me wrong necessarily. That is just how i see it.

Modifié par seraphymon, 23 octobre 2011 - 11:32 .

[Chiramu]

Fantastic ideas, hopes and dreams for the Dragon Age story! I just hope Bioware will have the time and manpower to implement everything that they want into the game without having to take anything from the game's experience due to financial concerns.

[Zanallen]

Creid-X wrote...

Good for you, just skip/ignore any future content about her and let us, who enjoy her character have a good time, is that okay for you?

Sure, works just fine. Just don't get your hopes up too high. I wouldn't want you to be too disappointed when Bioware inevitably fails to deliver.

[Cypher0020]

*tosses money at computer screen* take it Bioware!

Waiting for trailer to load.... so epic!

[Atakuma]

seraphymon wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

Thats actually the thing i want to see more than anything, as Morrigan is one of my favorite video game characters  of all time, plus i would like closure on that subject. But like others have mentioned if they are gonna do it justice with the warden and stuff, then dont even bother.

And thus we see the fundamental differences between us. You view Morrigan as one of your favorite video game characters while I view her as an annoying, overly contrary barbarian apostitute thrust into my party and good for nothing more than a quick romp in the hay in order to keep my warden alive without having to sacrifice the new king of Ferelden. She can take her demon spawn child and burn in a fiery pit, for all I care.

As much as I like Morrigan I can honestly say her entire purpose was to have sex and get pregnant with a god child.

and save a person life in the process. Either way at least  there was a purpose rather than those who just merly tagged along for the ride.

Morrigan was just along for the ride untill that point. Alistar had a real purpose, Morrigan was just an obnoxious plot contrivance.

[TEWR]

seraphymon wrote...


 How do you know?

Because Merrill makes it clear to an aggressive Hawke that she has no intention of ever summoning Audacity and freeing him from his prison.

Because Marethari made it clear in the Merrill short story that Audacity would be trapped for centuries and couldn't harm anyone.

Because we know the Eluvians link to a place beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade, and because we know Audacity was sundered from the Fade just like Justice was since Marethari says she couldn't banish him back to the Fade.

And because Merrill makes it clear that only a powerful magic spell could free Audacity, and we don't even know if Merrill knew what this spell was. We do know that Marethari knew.

It didnt matter to the demon, the fact is Merril was being decieved and made merathari right. Becaus e she knew what would have happened, she took Merrils place instead.  There perhaps could have been a better way certainly, but that doesnt make marethari wrong.

Marethari was probably Audacity's true target, since he probably used her pride as a loving mother-type figure against her.

Marethari only gives her speculations on what would've happened, but doesn't tell us how she knew. And considering she wanted nothing to do with the Eluvians -- something she made clear in both DAO and DAII -- I doubt it was knowledge she gained from any research.

It was either knowledge gained from Audacity -- in which case she's a hypocrite for telling Merrill not to trust a demon when Marethari trusted one. It also means that Audacity may have used that information as a way to solidify Marethari freeing Audacity -- or it was Audacity trying to get under Merrill's skin.

Either way, Marethari was wrong.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 octobre 2011 - 11:42 .

[Morty Smith]

There are words lingering at the tip of my tongue, that would describe my thoughts after watching this. But I have no interest in starting the predictable polarizing flow of senseless discussion between fence-wetters.

The series and I are parting ways, so I just move on.

Modifié par Kroitz, 23 octobre 2011 - 11:44 .

[Morroian]

seraphymon wrote...

 I could associate unwillingless to listen with alot of people on this forum. But no i see it as ignorance, because she acted like it never posed a threat. To her it wasnt a risk really. She was so confident she could handle naything thrown at her. She wasnt aware of the tricks of the demon. 

Merrill took precauations when dealing with the demon and with using blood magic to the extent that it was abundantly clear that she knew exactly what threat the demon posed and the tricks it could pull. She is the only person in the game (depending on how you role play Hawke) to display such a mature understanding of both. She was ignorant of 1 thing and that was exactly what the demon was planning, but she did know it was planning something.

[LobselVith8]

seraphymon wrote...

Morroian wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

Cause evidently she ended up being wrong? 

She wasn't wrong, the keeper did the wrong thing.

Sacrificing herself to keep Merril from that fate was wrong? If that is wrong then i dont want to be right.

There's no evidence that Merrill was wrong. Merrill thought that the Eluvian held the possibility of helping the People, and (according to Gaider) she studied lore and extrapolated information from the shard. She did the research, and she was building an Eluvian from the shard she managed to successfully cleanse (which is why she isn't a ghoul like the corrupt elves in the Elven Ruins in Witch Hunt). Marethari makes it clear she thinks the ancestors wanted the Eluvian to be kept hidden, but there's no evidence that Marethari was correct. Also, there's no evidence that Marethari was right about her thoughts on the Eluvian being a means of escape. Marethari ended up endangering her entire clan, while Merrill took precautions to make certain she wouldn't endanger anyone.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Eluvians were used as a piece of communication between Elven cities, which if recreated multiple times would give each clan a way to maintain communication between clans should something happen. Like say, losing halla? So instead of waiting 6-7 years for a clan to finally receive word about another clan needing halla, you could contact them immediately when it happens!

The dalish already have arrangements for communication with other clans on short notice, instead of being stuck for up to ten years without contact -- that is explicitly brought up in DAO, where the dalish you help notify the other clans to band together, after you resolve their problem.

If the dalish in DA2 don't make use of it and instead insist on sitting around for entire game it's either because their Keeper or the Plot dictated, not because they didn't have the means to resolve the problem.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marethari ended up endangering her entire clan, while Merrill took precautions to make certain she wouldn't endanger anyone.

Since all the precautions Merrill took was bringing Hawke with her in case she gets possessed, one could say Marethari took the exact same level of precautions...

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Eluvians were used as a piece of communication between Elven cities, which if recreated multiple times would give each clan a way to maintain communication between clans should something happen. Like say, losing halla? So instead of waiting 6-7 years for a clan to finally receive word about another clan needing halla, you could contact them immediately when it happens!

The dalish already have arrangements for communication with other clans on short notice, instead of being stuck for up to ten years without contact -- that is explicitly brought up in DAO, where the dalish you help notify the other clans to band together, after you resolve their problem.

We don't even know where that messenger was going. He could've been contacting other clans within the Brecilian Forest for all we know. And if they had means of communication between clans that were that easy, why did it take the Sabrae clan (Marethari's clan) 6 years to finally receive word that another clan would hand them more halla?

Because it's not an easy means of communication, whereas the Eluvians are. It's an instant telephone. Just a ring-a-ding-ding and another clan knows where to go and why.

If the dalish in DA2 don't make use of it and instead insist on sitting around for entire game it's either because their Keeper or the Plot dictated, not because they didn't have the means to resolve the problem.

They apparently did, because Marethari says the clan will receive halla by the year's end. But we don't know when she sent that messenger. If it was in Act 1, then that means the Eluvians would be better suited for the clans then a messenger that takes 6 years to deliver a message to a clan he can't find easily.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

We don't even know where that messenger was going. He could've been contacting other clans within the Brecilian Forest for all we know.

No, he says quite explicitly:

"I have been charged by the keeper to seek out other Dalish clans in Ferelden, so we may spread the word about the Blight."

if your character is Dalish, he reveals he's actually heading north to find your own clan and then others.

On the other hand, the messenger also says that the Dalish don't keep exact track of other clans on purpose, so the humans can't learn about whereabouts of them all and wipe them out completely. On yet another hand that would make messaging mirrors potentially more dangerous than helpful, as they could be used to work around such precautions.
 

And if they had means of communication between clans that were that easy, why did it take the Sabrae clan (Marethari's clan) 6 years to finally receive word that another clan would hand them more halla?

Because we have rigid plot structure clashing with equally rigid idea for framed narrative, combined with what's referred to as "writers have no sense of scale"?

If the clan could move out way before even act 2 then Merrill's personal quest would fall flat on its butt. So they have to stick around.

[koshiee]

 can they please finish DA 2's story?

also dnw return to DAO where you travelled far and wide and made "huge" decisions but it was all generic and boring. Generic design > Generic story. 

[TEWR]

No, he says quite explicitly:

"I have been charged by the keeper to seek out other Dalish clans in Ferelden, so we may spread the word about the Blight."

if your character is Dalish, he reveals he's actually heading north to find your own clan and then others.

Didn't he say he would keep an eye out for the Dalish Warden's clan and not that he would go north?

I don't think he specified the actual direction he would be heading.

On the other hand, the messenger also says that the Dalish don't keep exact track of other clans on purpose, so the humans can't learn about whereabouts of them all and wipe them out completely. On yet another hand that would make messaging mirrors potentially more dangerous than helpful, as they could be used to work around such precautions.

Not really. We don't know the inner workings of an Eluvian. We don't know whether it is as simple as just a ring-a-ding-ding as I said or if there's something else that goes on with the Eluvians to contact other ones.

And if it is something complex, I doubt the Dalish would give up that information. They'd probably defend it to the death just like the Qunari would the gaatlok.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Brockololly wrote...

Seagloom wrote...
I missed this earlier and found it puzzling. Why is her appearance that important as long as she is recognizable as the same character? Morrigan may not even need that sliver of consistency considering she is a shapechanger and could have surpassed her skills in DAO by the time of her next appearance. Are we that shallow? Rhetorical question: of course we are.

Its my personal vendetta with all of DA2's face morph system- it sucks.

With every returning character like Alistair, Leliana, Isolde or Teagan they're clearly trying to recreate them as they looked in Origins in terms of their facial structure. And in every instance they end up looking like poorly made fan mods. Whether they just made those faces up really quick, I don't know. But the whole point in cameos to me is having the old characters visually identifiable by their faces- change their outfits, change their hair, whatever- but their facial structure shouldn't change. Yet every Origins cameo has the same bloated jaw, overly rounded noses and Botoxed skin thats endemic to every DA2 facemorph. Its not a matter of them trying to make Alistair look fat after several years, its that DA2 has a ****ty facemorph system that leaves you with craptastic faces and a lighting system that doesn't help matters. And its especially distracting in a game where you're conversing a good portion of the time.

Its not like the new facemorph system is leaps and bounds better than DAO's either. It just gives everyone Mr. Potato Head faces with so many people having the same stock parts slapped on, with various features looking exactly the same. If DA2's system was Frostbite 2 levels of technical prowess, I'd be fine if they looked or animated a little better. But the difference I see in DA2's faces is that they look like they've been coated in plastic, injected with Botox and have gone to the Thomas the Tank Engine school of over emoting.

So yeah. As for Morrigan, giving her a wholesale new face would just be like what they did with Flemeth which just seems like a cheap copout. It kills any sense of continuity, its like having a character recast in a series of movies. I hate that.

I honestly can't fathom why they changed the facemorph system into this. Every single woman in the game has a rounded face, every guy has an angular jaw, there is no variety. It is so hard to create a unique character. 

Anyway, reason for keeping unique appearences? Cosplay. Possibly the most ****ed excuse to include something in a game ever.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Didn't he say he would keep an eye out for the Dalish Warden's clan and not that he would go north?

I've checked in the Toolset before i wrote that. Please, don't make me go and open the files again just to quote the exact line ;/

Not really. We don't know the inner workings of an Eluvian. We don't know whether it is as simple as just a ring-a-ding-ding as I said or if there's something else that goes on with the Eluvians to contact other ones.

Yes, really. Please recall how a mage was able to scry location of a working eluvian using a shard from another mirror as reference, in the Witch Hunt. So, you wipe out one clan with mirror, use it to locate mirror(s) owned by other clans, rinse, repeat. And they won't even see it coming.

And if it is something complex, I doubt the Dalish would give up that information.

Whether the dalish defend anything or not makes little difference -- the information is in the books accessible to human mages. In fact, said human mages appear to have more info on the eluvians than the dalish themselves.

[lobi]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

No, he says quite explicitly:

"I have been charged by the keeper to seek out other Dalish clans in Ferelden, so we may spread the word about the Blight."

if your character is Dalish, he reveals he's actually heading north to find your own clan and then others.

Didn't he say he would keep an eye out for the Dalish Warden's clan and not that he would go north?

I don't think he specified the actual direction he would be heading.

On the other hand, the messenger also says that the Dalish don't keep exact track of other clans on purpose, so the humans can't learn about whereabouts of them all and wipe them out completely. On yet another hand that would make messaging mirrors potentially more dangerous than helpful, as they could be used to work around such precautions.

Not really. We don't know the inner workings of an Eluvian. We don't know whether it is as simple as just a ring-a-ding-ding as I said or if there's something else that goes on with the Eluvians to contact other ones.

And if it is something complex, I doubt the Dalish would give up that information. They'd probably defend it to the death just like the Qunari would the gaatlok.

Why oh why didn't I just choose the bloody werewolves.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote... Yes, really. Please recall how a mage was able to scry location of a working eluvian using a shard from another mirror as reference, in the Witch Hunt. So, you wipe out one clan with mirror, use it to locate mirror(s) owned by other clans, rinse, repeat. And they won't even see it coming.

Finn was the only person -- aside from a statue of a woman that the devs have hinted at not being Eleni anymore -- who even knew about the Scrying ritual.

The scrying was also a bit on the controversial side of the magic spectrum, as it required the lights of Arlathan. And the only way to find said lights was through the blood of a Dalish elf, and that was what Finn wanted to keep between the 4 of them.

He didn't just pick up the shard and scry the hell out of it. It was more than that.

Plus, we don't even know if that's a Circle sanctioned academic lesson since it's controversial. Finn doesn't exactly say how he knows about it now does he?

Also, the clans are on the move so much that the humans wouldn't even be able to reach them, and most humans tend to flee at the sight of the Dalish. If a clan lost their halla and contacted another clan, the 2nd clan could easily make going towards the 1st clan their top priority to avoid a confrontation with the humans.

Whether the dalish defend anything or not makes little difference -- the information is in the books accessible to human mages. In fact, said human mages appear to have more info on the eluvians than the dalish themselves.

That information on what an Eluvian is deals with just that: what it is. Not how to find one. You have a book on ancient elven relics and ancient elven language, but no book in Witch Hunt talked about how to find one.

lobi wrote...

Why oh why didn't I just choose the bloody werewolves.

because they're hairy and they stink.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Finn was the only person -- aside from a statue of a woman that the devs have hinted at not being Eleni anymore -- who even knew about the Scrying ritual.

Are you saying Finn is the only person in entire world capable of reading books from the library of the tower he's been living in? Because it's not some exclusive knowledge he was born with.

Finn is the only mage that your character gets to talk to about the ritual. It doesn't mean he's the only mage to know it.

The scrying was also a bit on the controversial side of the magic spectrum, as it required the lights of Arlathan. And the only way to find said lights was through the blood of a Dalish elf, and that was what Finn wanted to keep between the 4 of them.

Well, the blood of dalish elves is going to be quite easily accessible when wiping out the dalish elf clans is involved, no?

Also, the clans are on the move so much that the humans wouldn't even be able to reach them, and most humans tend to flee at the sight of the Dalish.

The clans are nomadic but they do spend weeks in a location before moving out. More than enough to chase them down, especially by armed forces not slowed down by loaded carts, children and elderly.

Modifié par tmp7704, 24 octobre 2011 - 02:36 .

[TEWR]

Well, the blood of dalish elves is going to be quite easily accessible when wiping out the dalish elf clans is involved, no?

Well this really depends on the country. If the Dalish went to Rivain where there are very cordial relations with the Dalish -- so much so that there is a camp set out for the Dalish -- then it isn't an issue.

If it's in a country like Ferelden ruled by King Alistair who is friendly to the Dalish -- and Arl Eamon, Teagan, the Wardens, and the Couslands are all influential people who don't hate the Dalish -- then things would go over smoothly.

Yes I realize the Dalish boon ended badly, but we don't know the specifics. It could've been the result of the Dalish living in the same area as the Chasind Wilders who were actually numbered into their own horde themselves, and the Chasind fought the Dalish.

It depends on the country.

Are you saying Finn is the only person in entire world capable of reading books from the library of the tower he's been living in? Because it's not some exclusive knowledge he was born with.

Finn is the only mage that your character gets to talk to about the ritual. It doesn't mean he's the only mage to know it

No. I was saying that he's the only person that knows about a controversial magical subject, so because of his reluctance to mention it to the Templars then that logically means that this isn't something the Circle has books on.

I wasn't saying he's the only person that knows period. But how he knows is never told to the player except that he doesn't want the Templars to know what he knows, y'know?

Also, I seem to recall a post by I think Mary Kirby where she said Finn and Ariane travel together. Or maybe that was what she liked to think. If it's the former, then Ariane could inform her clan about the Eluvians and Finn could help them learn more about them, and then they could figure out ways to make sure this knowledge couldn't be used against them.

Just you wait until the next DLC comes out that hopefully gives Merrill and Fenris the spotlight. Hopefully it'll revolve around the Dalish lore and whatnot, and maybe give us some new creatures.

[Joy Divison]

seraphymon wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

 I could associate unwillingless to listen with alot of people on this forum.

Exacty.  It's an adult behavior.

But no i see it as ignorance, because she acted like it never posed a threat. To her it wasnt a risk really. She was so confident she could handle naything thrown at her. She wasnt aware of the tricks of the demon. Part of that could have been Marethari for not fully explaining everything, but then again it may have done no good if all Merril wants to do is stick her fingers in her ear and go la la la la

This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin.  Did you even play Act III?

Yes, multiple times. Which is why i said what i said. And that doesnt make me wrong necessarily. That is just how i see it.

Yes it does make you wrong.  Saying "she acted like it never posed a threat" is patently false.  You might feel she underestimated the threat, but that is not the same thing.  Saying "she was so confident she could handle anything thrown at her" is also wrong, she comes out and flatly admits it when she asks Hawke to accompany her to Sundermont.

It is possible to interpret her as overly-idealistic, obdurate, ill-conceived, or borderline reckless but you are contending something entirely different that is unequivocally refuted by in game evidence.

[seraphymon]

Joy Divison wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

 I could associate unwillingless to listen with alot of people on this forum.

Exacty.  It's an adult behavior.

But no i see it as ignorance, because she acted like it never posed a threat. To her it wasnt a risk really. She was so confident she could handle naything thrown at her. She wasnt aware of the tricks of the demon. Part of that could have been Marethari for not fully explaining everything, but then again it may have done no good if all Merril wants to do is stick her fingers in her ear and go la la la la

This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin.  Did you even play Act III?

Yes, multiple times. Which is why i said what i said. And that doesnt make me wrong necessarily. That is just how i see it.

Yes it does make you wrong.  Saying "she acted like it never posed a threat" is patently false.  You might feel she underestimated the threat, but that is not the same thing.  Saying "she was so confident she could handle anything thrown at her" is also wrong, she comes out and flatly admits it when she asks Hawke to accompany her to Sundermont.

It is possible to interpret her as overly-idealistic, obdurate, ill-conceived, or borderline reckless but you are contending something entirely different that is unequivocally refuted by in game evidence.

No it doesnt make me wrong because the way i interpret isnt really a right or wrong. She did act like it never was a threat. Its like she thought there wasnt a risk great enough to change her mind, and im syaing throught  the entire thing, not just the one instance where she asked for Hawke as a mere precaution. BUt no once bad things happened, she wondered why the hell she ever started this, or blaming it on the clan dpeending how you choose to answer Merrill. Game evidence only prvues my point in this, it isnt really countered, but i can see how one might interpreted thigns differently.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well this really depends on the country.

Uhh... no, it doesn't. If you simply need blood of dalish elf, then all you need to obtain some is a dalish elf with blood still in his/her veins. And if you attack a dalish clan then that's going to wind up with plenty donors -- i don't think they have to be willing donors... do they?
 

I wasn't saying he's the only person that knows period. But how he knows is never told to the player except that he doesn't want the Templars to know what he knows, y'know?

Since it's something he learns while living in the mage tower it's quite logical to presume he's obtained this knowledge from sources available to any other mage in the same tower. If the source of knowledge is books written by other mage(s) in the past, it's also logical to presume that knowledge was spread farther by those who obtained it from the same sources before Finn.

I imagine he doesn't want templars to know about his knowledge because it's magic which involves blood. And we know how the Chantry views anything related to that... however, this doesn't stops plenty of mages from obtaining that kind of knowledge, in the least.

[lobi]

Finn had lengthy conversations with the Tevinter Statue, The warden had to look up the ritual and such because Finns knowledge was limited, remember?
Merril was smart and careful.
When Merril left the Dalish Audacity was still imprisoned. Merrill brought Hawk as a precaution because she had thought a second encounter was extremly risky. Marithari did not take such precautions was tricked into freeing Audacity from it's century's old prison and paid the ultimate price.

Modifié par lobi, 24 octobre 2011 - 04:13 .