356 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Back to the topic of how Bioware could handle the OGB/DR/Morrigan issue...


Its quite easily solved by the following line of logic: Morrigan can't get the Warden to either sleep with her or convince Loghain/Allistair to participate with the DR. Morrigan then convinces Riordan to perform the DR to save his life.

When the Warden/Allistair/Loghain are the one to do the DR, they automatically are the one to perform the killing blow. Its only when you refuse the DR do we see an option about who to send. When the DR is not done/endorsed by the Warden, someone dies. This is used as proof that Riordan could not have performed the DR in secret.

HOWEVER... what if part of the DR is designed to save the life of the Warden "donor" only? Since the game mechanics do not let us see what happens if the DR is done by the Warden and someone else strikes the final blow, it could be said that only if the killing blow is done by the Warden who performed the DR will no one die. Or it could even go further to say that the Warden who participated in the ritual has to still be alive for the protection of the DR to work.

Either one of those explanations can allow for Riordan to perform the ritual, die without giving the final blow, still having the Warden/Allistair/Loghain to die, and the OGB to be born.

In the words of HIMYM... Lawyered!

[Cobra's_back]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Back to the topic of how Bioware could handle the OGB/DR/Morrigan issue...


Its quite easily solved by the following line of logic: Morrigan can't get the Warden to either sleep with her or convince Loghain/Allistair to participate with the DR. Morrigan then convinces Riordan to perform the DR to save his life.

When the Warden/Allistair/Loghain are the one to do the DR, they automatically are the one to perform the killing blow. Its only when you refuse the DR do we see an option about who to send. When the DR is not done/endorsed by the Warden, someone dies. This is used as proof that Riordan could not have performed the DR in secret.

HOWEVER... what if part of the DR is designed to save the life of the Warden "donor" only? Since the game mechanics do not let us see what happens if the DR is done by the Warden and someone else strikes the final blow, it could be said that only if the killing blow is done by the Warden who performed the DR will no one die. Or it could even go further to say that the Warden who participated in the ritual has to still be alive for the protection of the DR to work.

Either one of those explanations can allow for Riordan to perform the ritual, die without giving the final blow, still having the Warden/Allistair/Loghain to die, and the OGB to be born.

In the words of HIMYM... Lawyered!

She can't use Riordan. My Warden asked her about that. She said he was tainted for too long. She was looking for a Warden that had not been tainted for a long time.

 I just played the game and there is a choice to ask why not Riordan.

[Cutlasskiwi]

 David Gaider said that if the player didn't agree to the DR or convinced Alistair or Loghain to do it then it wasn't preformed.  

David Gaider wrote...
May I put this to rest?

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame.

Modifié par Cutlasskiwi, 24 octobre 2011 - 10:51 .

[TEWR]

Cutlasskiwi wrote...

 David Gaider has said that if the player didn't agree to the DR or convinced Alistair or Loghain to do it then it wasn't preformed.  

David Gaider wrote...
May I put this to rest?

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame.

Eh, I don't buy his line of thought. It seems like he wasn't acknowledging that people die from wartime injuries all the time. The Warden (or Alistair or Loghain) could die from those types of injuries in non-DR playthroughs.

Plus, I hate this notion that because the Warden says "No" he magically brainwashes everyone to drop their goals and motives.

Makes no sense. Besides, it could easily be explained that the DR was the quickest and easiest way for Morrigan to acquire the Old God's soul, but not the only way.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 octobre 2011 - 11:05 .

[Nerevar-as]

No thanks. At least with the GW I had the illusion choices mattered. Let´s keep it that way. Anyway, DR isn´t going to be worldchanging in a way that affects gameplay.

[ejoslin]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Back to the topic of how Bioware could handle the OGB/DR/Morrigan issue...


Its quite easily solved by the following line of logic: Morrigan can't get the Warden to either sleep with her or convince Loghain/Allistair to participate with the DR. Morrigan then convinces Riordan to perform the DR to save his life.

When the Warden/Allistair/Loghain are the one to do the DR, they automatically are the one to perform the killing blow. Its only when you refuse the DR do we see an option about who to send. When the DR is not done/endorsed by the Warden, someone dies. This is used as proof that Riordan could not have performed the DR in secret.

HOWEVER... what if part of the DR is designed to save the life of the Warden "donor" only? Since the game mechanics do not let us see what happens if the DR is done by the Warden and someone else strikes the final blow, it could be said that only if the killing blow is done by the Warden who performed the DR will no one die. Or it could even go further to say that the Warden who participated in the ritual has to still be alive for the protection of the DR to work.

Either one of those explanations can allow for Riordan to perform the ritual, die without giving the final blow, still having the Warden/Allistair/Loghain to die, and the OGB to be born.

In the words of HIMYM... Lawyered!

Untrue.  If Alistair/Loghain does the DR, the warden still does the killing blow.  The only time Loghain/Alistair does the killing blow is if the DR wasn't done and the Warden (or in some cases, Alistair) decides that Loghain/Alistair will pay the price.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2011 - 11:53 .

[ejoslin]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...


They are indeed walking everywhere. I could give you countless indications, but why don't you just give me one indication that any other form of transport exists.

Well, if Zevran offers a massage, when he says that he knows what the warden needs after all the walking and killing and such, the warden can answer, "A horse?"  So in that conversation you learn, aside from the part that saying it's ok for things to go beyond a massage most likely means sex, that both horses are used, and that the party does not have them.

[Demx]

Morroian wrote...

Siradix wrote...

@ RPGamer Rivain is not part of the highlighted area. It's pretty much everywhere but the places that people wanted to go the most.

It does include Orlais and I think Nevarra that people do want to see.

That's why I said pretty much, although  I don't recall Nevarra being mentioned a lot.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

ejoslin wrote...

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...


They are indeed walking everywhere. I could give you countless indications, but why don't you just give me one indication that any other form of transport exists.

Well, if Zevran offers a massage, when he says that he knows what the warden needs after all the walking and killing and such, the warden can answer, "A horse?"  So in that conversation you learn, aside from the part that saying it's ok for things to go beyond a massage most likely means sex, that both horses are used, and that the party does not have them.

Ooh missed that one, so you prove me half-wrong, but really helped the main cause, thanks!

[blaidfiste]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Cutlasskiwi wrote...

 David Gaider has said that if the player didn't agree to the DR or convinced Alistair or Loghain to do it then it wasn't preformed.  

David Gaider wrote...
May I put this to rest?

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame.

Eh, I don't buy his line of thought. It seems like he wasn't acknowledging that people die from wartime injuries all the time. The Warden (or Alistair or Loghain) could die from those types of injuries in non-DR playthroughs.

Plus, I hate this notion that because the Warden says "No" he magically brainwashes everyone to drop their goals and motives.

Makes no sense. Besides, it could easily be explained that the DR was the quickest and easiest way for Morrigan to acquire the Old God's soul, but not the only way.

Where was Hawke when you needed him!

Hawke: I will not do the ritual
Morrigan: Ok
Next day, Morrigan: I did it with Loghain/Alistair.  You're welcome, I'm leaving after the battle, don't follow me.

[Atakuma]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Eh, I don't buy his line of thought. It seems like he wasn't acknowledging that people die from wartime injuries all the time. The Warden (or Alistair or Loghain) could die from those types of injuries in non-DR playthroughs.

Having them die of injuries immediatley after slaying the archdemon would make for a terrible explanation.

Plus, I hate this notion that because the Warden says "No" he magically brainwashes everyone to drop their goals and motives.

So would you rather Morrigan rape the warden? That would be the only alternative for Morrigan.

Makes no sense. Besides, it could easily be explained that the DR was the quickest and easiest way for Morrigan to acquire the Old God's soul, but not the only way.

Of course they could, but it would render the ultimate sacrifice completely meaningless and it would be just as contrived as Leliana coming back from the dead.

[TEWR]

Atakuma wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Eh, I don't buy his line of thought. It seems like he wasn't acknowledging that people die from wartime injuries all the time. The Warden (or Alistair or Loghain) could die from those types of injuries in non-DR playthroughs.

Having them die of injuries immediatley after slaying the archdemon would make for a terrible explanation.

Plus, I hate this notion that because the Warden says "No" he magically brainwashes everyone to drop their goals and motives.

So would you rather Morrigan rape the warden? That would be the only alternative for Morrigan.

Makes no sense. Besides, it could easily be explained that the DR was the quickest and easiest way for Morrigan to acquire the Old God's soul, but not the only way.

Of course they could, but it would render the ultimate sacrifice completely meaningless and it would be just as contrived as Leliana coming back from the dead.

1) No it wouldn't. If you look at the Archdemon kill, you can see an explosion. People die from explosions all the time, and it's rather instantaneous. Sometime the body can't be recognized though, other times it can. Also, people die from the shockwaves caused by explosions too.

2) No, but I'd rather she not give up on her goal and I'd rather it be explained that the DR was the quickest and easiest way for her to obtain the Old God's soul.

3) Not really. To Thedosians, all Wardens have died when they killed the Archdemon. There's no way for any Thedosian to perform an autopsy on a Warden and say "Welp, he died from having two souls in one body and they just went KABLAMO!!".

The extent of the choice was really "Do you live or die". The OGB is something that I don't think Bioware can use appropriately if they say that there is no OGB. Which doesn't mean the Warden has to be alive for there to be an OGB. See what I said in #2.

It's a big thing and Morrigan's own dialogue in Witch Hunt says that the OGB will be important for Thedas. How are they going to pull off something as big as the OGB appropriately if he doesn't exist in peoples' playthroughs?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 octobre 2011 - 07:45 .

[Funkjoker]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's a big thing and Morrigan's own dialogue in Witch Hunt says that the OGB will be important for Thedas. How are they going to pull off something as big as the OGB appropriately if he doesn't exist in peoples' playthroughs?

and without playing as the Warden. No one - absolutely no one - except the Warden has the right to settle things with dear and precious Morrigan. Not Hawke, not a new hero, only the Warden!

I don't like playing a new protagonist if the old one's not over. However, there is one solution: DA3 main game features a new char and the main story shall not be about Morrigan. In an expansion we get to play the Warden again, ultimately dealing with Morrigan. Only then I'd be pleased -- if the Warden settles it [in a good and not rushed way].

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 25 octobre 2011 - 11:22 .

[Demx]

The OGB might as well have died, at least with that if they bring back Morrigan they can write some interesting dialogue for the new protagonist. Such as the warden, if gone through the mirror, sensed that the child could endanger the lives of millions. So he killed the child.

[Dave of Canada]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

and without playing as the Warden. No one - absolutely no one - except the Warden has the right to settle things with dear and precious Morrigan. Not Hawke, not a new hero, only the Warden!

My Warden doesn't care about Morrigan and died.

[Atakuma]

What's the point in arguing about this anyway? Gaider has spoken and until I see otherwise, I'm going to take his word for it. Besides, I just plain don't like Morrigan and would rather not see her again unless they remove her plot armor.

[Apollo Starflare]

Sometimes I think BioWare should just make DA3 only accept imports where the DR was performed if only to put an end to these endless back and forths.

[Funkjoker]

^ Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Some Wardens' story's not over, some other wardens ended etc.
I wonder what we will get in the end. It has huge potential for a great fail. However it can also be done good. I hope, at least ^.^

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 26 octobre 2011 - 12:00 .

[tmp7704]

Atakuma wrote...

Besides, I just plain don't like Morrigan and would rather not see her again unless they remove her plot armor.

She'd still keep the underwear on though, i bet.

[element eater]

regarding the interview

that the comment about combat was good very reassuring.

The map feature is interesting but a large area doesn't mean anything until we see how much playable areas there are within it and how much they vary

I dislike immensely the notion of companion armour being interchangeable but with a set appearance if all that changes are the stats i don't really hold much interest in the idea. unless there is enough outfits for the game to change them regularly depending on equipment though I doubt this the intention though

still no comment on the nature of the player character and whether or not we'll be able to play our own character again or stuck with another pre-set character (my biggest issue as I dislike playing rpgs with characters that don't feel my own)

On the whole I thought the team came across very well and the talk was good

Modifié par element eater, 26 octobre 2011 - 02:12 .

[Alyka]

Since a war is going on between the Templars and Mages, and supposedly allies will be gathered in order to restore peace (source), I can see the Warden, Hawke and DA3's PC being the peacekeepers.It just occured to me what is said in the Chant of Light:
"Blessed are the peacekeepers, the champions of the just."

Interesting....

All signs were pointing towards the direction of Orlais by mentions in DA:O, DA2 and MoTA. So it's no surprise that DA3 will include this area.

Modifié par Alyka, 26 octobre 2011 - 06:31 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ju13es wrote...

From what I gathered, companion gear will be able to be changed, but it will be unique to the character, sort of how gear changes for every class in the Diablo series.

:(:(:(

[Lotion Soronarr]

Zanallen wrote...

I hope its not Morrigan because I hate Morrigan and I hate the OGB and I never want to see either of them again.

agreed