272 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

That's precisely what he says. I believe it's the "good" option. And varric's response is "you have to think big".

Hmmm... so it's a diplomatic choice? I guess I've chosen the sarcastic option so much that's the only one I remembered, and I thought that was the only one. Now I feel like a fool.

Ah well, my point still stands. An expedition provides lots of money, and the Hawke family was in dire need of a lot of money in a short amount of time.

[Yrkoon]

In Exile wrote...

i.e. You can quite easily think that there is a better way to stop the blight than what you're doing. Let's quote me again, for emphasis:

" Even if we take the motivation [to stop the blight] as a given, your character could easily see the plan as stupid. 

You could as easily say that abandoning Ferelden to burn, because it is in the midsts of a civil war, lots the majority of its military might (as far as you know) and all you have to go on are 500 year old tries that you hope anyone is going to give a damn about."

Letting Fereldan burn won't stop the blight.    Even theoretically.

Well, man, this is a video game. In ALL video games, there are some motivations that are assumed (you don't buy a Witcher game if you don't want to be a witcher. You don't buy a racing game if you don't want to race etc). In the case of DA: O, the motivation to stop the blight is posed/assumed to the player before he buys the game, on the game box, you are Told that you're going to play as a warden, and that your goal is to stop the blight. At that point, you do INDEED have a choice based on Motivation. You can literally say: F**K that. I don't wanna be a warden. I don't wanna stop the blight..... and just walk away.

You don't win debating points by ranting after not reading closely. 

You don't have a point.  Your entire premise revolves around  someone buying the game and then complaining about motivations because  the game forces him to be a warden hero and stop the blight...  2 things mentioned on the damn box.


In other words, the motivations you're arguing  about  are determining factors on whether one buys the game or doesn't.

Again, you don't buy  Witcher games if you don't want to be a witcher.  You don't buy Madden games if you won't want to play football.   And you don't buy DA:O if your motivation is  to turn your back on the wardens and let the blight ravage Fereldan. These things do not count in any rational discussion about in-game Choices/motivations,  because If you bought the game, it is  a given that your motivation is to *beat  the game, and in this case, it means stopping the blight.

If you want though, you can tell us a  'smarter' way to stop the blight that the game doesn't allow.  I'd be delighted to hear it.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:35 .

[Sutekh]

Didn't we have that conversation some months ago, In Ex? 

I still stand by my position, btw. When you embark on this type of tale, you have to accept the premise. It's like a contract of suspension of disbelief. In this case, as I pointed to you then, it's clearly written on the box / description of the game that you 1. will be a Grey Warden 2. Will stop the Blight which 3. happens in Ferelden.

There are, in fact, tons of possible, valid motivations for each origin to embark on the journey, but (and this is important) it can only work if you're not bend on finding motivations not to. 

The same goes for Hawke, except that in this case, Act III robs you of your "deserved" ending: i.e. You don't get to shape the world (whether it's a bad thing is debatable). You still can enjoy the Rise to Power while it lasts (although Rise to Wealth would be more accurate, IMHO), and find any motivations that suit you for the various subquests. Or not, in which case you won't enjoy the game at all, motivation-wise.

It's simple, really, and over-analysing it will do nothing. Either you buy it, or you don't. 

[In Exile]

simfamSP wrote...

But here comes my side of the arguement that game cannot simply give your characters motivation because it is up to *you.*

"Why should I care about Ferelden?"

Stopping the blight doesn't indicate that you care about Ferelden, it can mean many things. Fortune, fame, women... or maybe to save your own bloody skin. Or you don't care about any of that at all, and just feel that it is your duty. You could be doing it for somebody you love, for vengence... That is why we have the Howe story too, and the Loghain story, and the whole political **** storm. But as I said, it's up to *us* not the game. 

You misunderstand. 

I'm not saying that you don't want to stop the blight. I'm saying that stopping the blight != saving Ferelden. 

Yrkoon wrote...
Letting Fereldan burn won't stop the blight.    Even theoretically.

Retreating is not the same thing as losing. And getting murdered makes it impossible to stop the blight.

You don't have a point.  Your entire premise revolves around  someone buying the game and then complaining about motivations because  the game forces him to be a warden hero and stop the blight...  2 things mentioned on the damn box.

Right, I forgot. You're doing that think were you make up want I'm saying and then argue against that. Well, don't let reality get in the way of your rant. 

Again, you don't buy  Witcher games if you don't want to be a witcher.  You don't buy Madden games if you won't want to play football.   And you don't buy DA:O if your motivation is  to turn your back on the wardens and let the blight ravage Fereldan. These things do not count in any rational discussion about in-game Choices/motivations,  because If you bought the game, it is  a given that your motivation is to *beat  the game, and in this case, it means stopping the blight.

Re-typing out your rant doesn't make it more valid. It just makes you look more desperate to insult me. Please stop.

Yrkoon wrote...
If you want though, you can tell us a  'smarter' way to stop the blight that the game doesn't allow.  I'd be delighted to hear it.

Or insult me more, whatever. Given that I mentioned this in the post you're responding to it's obvious you're not interested in any kind of discussion. 

[In Exile]

Sutekh wrote...

Didn't we have that conversation some months ago, In Ex?  

Indirectly, yes. By that, I mean that I was hoping this wouldn't be a debate about DA2's content, but rather on the design principles. But I refuse to be one of those people who tries to police his own thread, so I go where the wind takes me.

I still stand by my position, btw. When you embark on this type of tale, you have to accept the premise. It's like a contract of suspension of disbelief. In this case, as I pointed to you then, it's clearly written on the box / description of the game that you 1. will be a Grey Warden 2. Will stop the Blight which 3. happens in Ferelden.

I think .3 is the issue. Not because there's an issue with it happening in Ferelden, but that the game doesn't give you a reason for it. 

It's all in the script. In-game, we actually start pre- blight. So in-game, we don't have any in-character motivation for any of this. And all of it hinges on meta-gaming.

Well, once Bioware switches out it's theme, the method fails. It's bad design. Look at TW2's way of doing it:

In Act I, you have to leave to Floatsam under penalty of death. At Floatsam you don't have to stick with any of the parties at all. You can drop it all and just plain leave with Triss. Then something happens on a personal level with Geralt, and you have another motivation.

Even though Geralt is a fixed character (to a large degree) you can actually have many motivations in TW2 - it's where the RP content comes from at all, because it's one of the few things you do have control over.

The same goes for Hawke, except that in this case, Act III robs you of your "deserved" ending: i.e. You don't get to shape the world (whether it's a bad thing is debatable). You still can enjoy the Rise to Power while it lasts (although Rise to Wealth would be more accurate, IMHO), and find any motivations that suit you for the various subquests. Or not, in which case you won't enjoy the game at all, motivation-wise.

It's simple, really, and over-analysing it will do nothing. Either you buy it, or you don't. 

It's a design flaw. That's what it comes down to. That's the point I'm driving. 

[leggywillow]

I agree with the OP, though I only get annoyed by the issue when people use it to bash DA2 or praise Origins, since I found Origins to be equally restricting.  Perhaps it's my lack of RPG background, but I think being railroaded is a small price to pay for a strong narrative.  (Whether DA2 or Origins succeed in that is up for debate, of course, though I think that both games do.)

For me, the worst example was in Origins.  I get that you have to accept the game's premise and that not all character ideas are truly viable in the game.  However, the Urn of Sacred Ashes questline actually worked against the very character type that was best motivated to carry out the other main quests in the game!  A character with a single-minded focus on stopping the Blight at the cost of their own safety isn't going to take weeks out of their schedule to go traipsing through the mountains on a wild goose chase.  This is even worse if you play a non-Andrastian character, who would find the whole idea of the Sacred Ashes to be a load of nonsense.  Why would a Dwarf Noble or Dalish Elf go on a long, dangerous journey to find the grave of some random human?

[Reno_Tarshil]

My motivation for playing was because it was the sequel to DA:O and the story of Hawke kept me interested in playing. Not shure where this fits into the discussion.

[Yrkoon]

In Exile wrote...


Retreating is not the same thing as losing.

You do retreat in DA:O.  First you   retreat from Ostagar, then you run away from Lothering; then you run away from Redcliffe, and finally you  retreat to  an almost completely burned-down Denerim  way up north to make your final stand.... on the roof of a building, to be specific.
 

And getting murdered makes it impossible to stop the blight.

Which is why the game ends when your party is wiped out.

Yrkoon wrote...
If you want though, you can tell us a  'smarter' way to stop the blight that the game doesn't allow.  I'd be delighted to hear it.

Or insult me more, whatever. Given that I mentioned this in the post you're responding to it's obvious you're not interested in any kind of discussion. 

The only alternative you offered is to let Fereldan fall.  In other words,  your solution for  stopping the blight is to let  the darkspawn win the game.  Yeah. You call that "smart"?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:03 .

[upsettingshorts]

Yrkoon wrote...

The only alternative you offered is to let Fereldan fall.  In other words,  your solution to stopping the blight is to let  the darkspawn win?  Really?  You call that "smart"?

Considering the only people to which you are exposed who have researched and thoughtful opinions of the Blight are Duncan and Loghain - and both of them think the defenses prepared for the Darkspawn are inadaquete and implore Cailan to wait for reinforcements from Orlais - its perfectly reasonable to believe that since the army was split and half crushed, that Ferelden may be incapable of defeating the Blight and rallying neighboring countries such as Orlais must be the first priority.

Furthermore, the treaties require you to acquire ancient allies - with their own potentially catastrophic issues - wheras all In Exile suggests is... acquiring different allies.

His point is simply that neither game spoon feeds you obligatory motivation or meaningfully supported personal decisions that would explicitly provide one.  You must decide for yourself why you are there and what your goals are, if you do not, then both experiences might seem arbitrary or pointless to the player.  It is not something that Dragon Age 2 does that Dragon Age Origins does not.

Awakenings, on the other hand - and another poster pointed out - does by giving your character a role that has demands and responsibilities.  Your Warden may feel saddled or burdened by them, but they are still his/her job to accomplish, and short of shirking them, you are left to deal with the issues presented as you see fit in your role as Warden Commander.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:11 .

[Frek]

I don't post around these parts much.

OP I agree with what you are saying. I'll say it using much less words though.

DA:O - I felt like the whole game I was heading towards a clear goal. Everything in the game was a stop along the way to ending the blight. Hence I had an overall motivation thru the entire game.

DA2 - Outside of the opening segments of the game I had no clue what my character was striving towards. There was little motivation and honestly it was a chore to finish the game.

[Yrkoon]

Waiting for re-enforcements from Orlais produces...... Riorden. A 3rd warden. And enough to stop the blight, since the only thing required to stop the blight is 1) a Warden, and 2) someone talented enough to "listen in" and sense where the archdemon and his generals are, you get both. And even then, you're given the choice to not take Riordan's advice... on *two* issues. (sacrificing yourself, and taking out the generals before fighting the arch demon).

[Neesee]

Yrkoon wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Retreating is not the same thing as losing.

You do retreat in DA:O. You retreat to an almost completely burned-down Denerim to make your final stand.... on the roof of a building, to be specific.

I... I don't think that is a retreat.

Yrkoon wrote...
The only alternative you offered is to let Fereldan fall. In other words, your solution for stopping the blight is to let the darkspawn win the game. Yeah. You call that "smart"?

I believe In Exile is saying that it would be better to retreat to Orlais in order to gather the forces of other countries and the Grey Wardens. The darkspawn may bring down Ferelden, but other places would be better prepared and a much larger force would be able to stop the blight.

[upsettingshorts]

Yrkoon wrote...

Waiting for re-enforcements from Orlais produces...... Riorden. A 3rd warden.

Who in this thread is suggesting sitting on your hands and waiting?

Riordan is all you get because he was sent to investigate what the hell happened.  Why?  Because no word was sent.  The suggestion is that you - the Warden - could have logically felt that being that messenger and delivering word of what happened at Ostagar was the right and proper thing to do.

If you ran up to the Orlesian Wardens and told them, they would have sent everybody. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:17 .

[Yrkoon]

Neesee wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Retreating is not the same thing as losing.

You do retreat in DA:O. You retreat to an almost completely burned-down Denerim to make your final stand.... on the roof of a building, to be specific.

I... I don't think that is a retreat.

It is.   The Blight begins down south an spreads northward....  And you do too.  Beginning in Ostagar, then lothering, then redcliffe, then finally denerim.

[Yrkoon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Waiting for re-enforcements from Orlais produces...... Riorden. A 3rd warden.

Who in this thread is suggesting sitting on your hands and waiting?

Riordan is all you get because he was sent to investigate what the hell happened.  Why?  Because no word was sent.  The suggestion is that you - the Warden - could have logically felt that being that messenger and delivering word of what happened at Ostagar was the right and proper thing to do.

If you ran up to the Orlesian Wardens and told them, they would have sent everybody.  Just like Duncan said he wanted and implied would probably be.

Sure, and in between battling logain's men at the border, then entering orlais, then finding/gathering the wardens, then ordering them to march, then returning to fereldan,  maybe the entire country will not have been completely blighted and  the roads/fields/paths to the arch demon impassable by then..

But of course, if your goal is to let Fereldan fall, then the above is no consequence... and neither are you, since the Orlesian Wardens probably don't need your help.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:25 .

[Zanallen]

Yrkoon wrote...

It is.   The Blight begins down south an spreads northward....  And you do too.  Beginning in Ostagar, then lothering, then redcliffe, then finally denerim.

It isn't. You go to Redcliffe to meet the darkspawn there, but they bypass you, despite your warden's supposed darkspawn sense, and move on to Denerim. You have to rush there to salvage the war effort.

[Neesee]

Yrkoon wrote...

It is.   The Blight begins down south an spreads northward....  And you do too.  Beginning in Ostagar, then lothering, then redcliffe, then finally denerim.

I would not qualify most of what happens once you leave the Korcari Wilds and are actively on your quest as "retreating".  Especially not going into the largely destroyed city of Denerim infested with Darkspawn.

[upsettingshorts]

Yrkoon wrote...

Sure, and in between battling logain's men at the border, then entering orlais, then finding the wardens, then ordering them to march, then returning to fereldan,  maybe the entire country will not have been completely blighted and  the roads/fields/paths to the arch demon impassable by then..

Your hypotheticals are completely irrelevant and offtopic.

The only thing that must be true for the argument to be coherent is that it is possible for a Warden - being roleplayed by the player - to believe that it would be the proper course of action, and for the game to fall apart if the player thinks that a key path he or she would have taken is not available.

A DA2 example of this would be not being able to join Thrask's coup attempt against Meredith.  Perhaps a hypothetical way that would fail is it would, through the Champion's higher profile, draw attention to it and cause it to fail and Hawke imprisoned.  The hypothetical failure of the choice in this case is not relevant, the fact it is a reasonable desire that is not supported is all that is required for the argument.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:24 .

[Zanallen]

Personally, I had no motivation to recruit the Dalish. You run into one single clan of Dalish, a clan currently in the middle of fighting werewolves. Neither the Dalish, nor the werewolves, seem like they would be worth spending the time recruiting.

[Yrkoon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Sure, and in between battling logain's men at the border, then entering orlais, then finding the wardens, then ordering them to march, then returning to fereldan,  maybe the entire country will not have been completely blighted and  the roads/fields/paths to the arch demon impassable by then..

Your hypotheticals are completely irrelevant and offtopic.

The only thing that must be true for the argument to be coherent is that it is possible for a Warden - being roleplayed by the player - to believe that it would be the proper course of action,

 
You mean a more intelligent course of action than gathering  4 armies which already exist in the country you're in... to stop a blight that hasn't yet spread beyond said country's borders.

Yeah, true.  Who's to say that  role-playing  a huge  time-gambler isn't  the smarter thing to do.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:33 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Yrkoon wrote...

Sure, and in between battling logain's men at the border, then entering orlais, then finding the wardens, then ordering them to march, then returning to fereldan,  maybe the entire country will not have been completely blighted and  the roads/fields/paths to the arch demon impassable by then..

The third Blight lasted 15 years and pretty much destroyed what is now Nevarra and the Free Marches, and required the combined power of Tevinter and Orlais to put down. The fourth Blight lasted 12 years and destroyed Antiva, the Free Marches, and Rivain before Orlais and the Imperium join forces again and drive the darkspawn back.

Sacrificing one nation to gather sufficient forces to push a Blight back? It's more likely than you think.

[Mr.House]

People seem to forgot that there was more to expedition then just the treasure, shall I remind everyone that Hawke went deeper into the Deep Roads then anyone thought before, including the Wardens to the point where even the Wardesn where interested. Also the treasure they found insured Hawke would get a title and be untouchable by the Templars, which would have made them noticeable by the Viscount which would in turn with early Qunari contact a "partnership" with the Viscount.

DA2 was fine until Act 3. I shall now keep my mouth shut on Act 3 since I believe almost everyone can agree it was a disaster.

Modifié par Mr.House, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:35 .

[upsettingshorts]

Yrkoon wrote...

You mean a more intelligent course of action than gathering  4 armies which already exist in the country you're in... to stop a blight that hasn't yet spread beyond said country's borders.

Yeah, true.  Who's to say that  role-playing  a huge gambler isn't smarter.

On what planet are all players required to play Wardens with omniscient clairvoyance, astute strategic acumen, or even basic critical thinking skills?  Does this same planet also require that Wardens also be correct?  

Do you know what roleplaying is?

Do you even know what this discussion is about? 

Also this:

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The third Blight lasted 15 years and pretty much destroyed what is now Nevarra and the Free Marches, and required the combined power of Tevinter and Orlais to put down. The fourth Blight lasted 12 years and destroyed Antiva, the Free Marches, and Rivain before Orlais and the Imperium join forces again and drive the darkspawn back.

Sacrificing one nation to gather sufficient forces to push a Blight back? It's more likely than you think.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:34 .

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

It isn't. You go to Redcliffe to meet the darkspawn there, but they bypass you, despite your warden's supposed darkspawn sense, and move on to Denerim. You have to rush there to salvage the war effort.

The warden sense seems to have range of couple hundred meters, tops.