272 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

To be frank, I really can't take the main story of DAO any more serious then DA2. In one game we have some person defeat a Blight so fast it's unrealistic compared to what we know about past blights andt he other we have two groups portrayed in such an extreme spotlight it's facepalm inducing. Thank god the side stories and characters are good.

Modifié par Mr.House, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:43 .

[Zanallen]

tmp7704 wrote...

The warden sense seems to have range of couple hundred meters, tops.

Yeah, there really is no upside to becoming a warden, is there? The only good thing I can think of is an immunity to the blight; one that only lasts until said warden succombs to the taint and dies.

[Mr.House]

Zanallen wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

The warden sense seems to have range of couple hundred meters, tops.

Yeah, there really is no upside to becoming a warden, is there? The only good thing I can think of is an immunity to the blight; one that only lasts until said warden succombs to the taint and dies.

Unless you get lucky like Laruis, then you become a mindless ghoul who the darkspawn can't sense :innocent:

[Yrkoon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

You mean a more intelligent course of action than gathering  4 armies which already exist in the country you're in... to stop a blight that hasn't yet spread beyond said country's borders.

Yeah, true.  Who's to say that  role-playing  a huge gambler isn't smarter.

On what planet are all players required to play Wardens with  , astute strategic acumen, or even basic critical thinking skills?  Does this same planet also require that Wardens also be correct?  

Do you know what roleplaying is?

Do you even know what this discussion is about? 

Ooh, looks like someone is being irrelevant.

We were discussing THIS:

In Exile wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
If you want though, you can tell us a 'smarter' way to stop the blight that the game doesn't allow. I'd be delighted to hear it.

Given that I mentioned this in the post you're responding to it's obvious you're not interested in any kind of discussion.

^Pay attention now.  I asked for a smarter way that the game doesn't allow.  The response  i got was:  let Fereldan burn while we make a road trip to Orlais to gather the wardens living  there, then make the road trip back with all of them... then  go after that arch demon.

Oh and by the way, it's not 'omniscient clairvoyance' to just use the treaties you found, and the whole armies in your own country, since the game Beats. You. Over. The. Head. with what you should be doing,  and it also  reminds you of  promises of  armed resistance from the Crown to any Orlesian force who crosses the border.....

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:54 .

[upsettingshorts]

Considering you failed to address the part of my post that's on topic, I'd say the person who remains disinterested in a reasoned debate on BioWare design philosophy would be you, and anyone who wants to take the issues In Exile raised seriously should - if they haven't already - just mentally replace any further post of yours with a blank space.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:52 .

[Mr.House]

I still say that after the Landsmeet there should have been multiple battles with the Darkspawn with year gaps and more armies joining, even taking place outside Ferelden to make the Blight more realistic and real, not lol you beat it under two years, let's ****** your gamer ego hur.

Modifié par Mr.House, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:54 .

[AtreiyaN7]

I tend to agree with the OP. In both games one has to find one's own motivations for their characters's actions in relation to the main quests, etc. That really is part of the point of role-playing games - to create a character and to come up with his/her motivations for the actions they take, but perhaps the nature of the storytelling in DA2 made it more difficult for some to do so. The structure of the story in DA:O is tighter and more standard in its approach by telling its story sequentially in about a year or two, whereas the story in DA2 involves events taken from a span of years in one person's life that sometimes seem only tangentially related and possibly a bit disjointed due to the time-skips. Maybe DA2's snapshot-like aproach in describing the transformation of the protagonist from a refugee into a figure that shakes the existing world order is not as relatable as the more standard narrative of the Warden's story. I don't think DA:O had that much more freedom of choice in terms of the main story, since many things were largely only a matter of flavor/color in my opinion. If there had been true freedom in DA:O, my revenge-obsessed Cousland would have been able to launch a military campaign against Loghain and Howe instead of getting railroaded into the Landsmeet. It might have been ill-advised, but that would have been a real and meaningful choice to me. Things like choosing the king of Orzammar were largely lacking in meaningful impact in the main story, other than to influence the flavor text of the epilogue. No matter who I choose, I still get an army of dwarves.

[jlb524]

Yrkoon wrote...
Oh and by the way, it's not omniscient clairvoyance to just use the treaties you found, and the whole armies in your own country, since the game Beats. You. Over. The. Head. with what you should be doing,  and then reminds you of  promises of  armed resistance from the Crown to any Orlesian force who crosses the border.....

Isn't that what the OP and others have been criticizing?

It 'beats you over the head' with what you should be doing because there's only one thing you can do.

[Yrkoon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Considering you failed to address the part of my post that's on topic,

Bullsh**.

Role playing someone who  thinks he has  a better game plan?  Addressed
Omniscient clairvoyance claim?  Adressed.
Specific, in context question answered?  Done, (despite the fact that you've decided to ignore it.)

You're dodging.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 octobre 2011 - 04:04 .

[Yrkoon]

jlb524 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
Oh and by the way, it's not omniscient clairvoyance to just use the treaties you found, and the whole armies in your own country, since the game Beats. You. Over. The. Head. with what you should be doing, and then reminds you of promises of armed resistance from the Crown to any Orlesian force who crosses the border.....

Isn't that what the OP and others have been criticizing?

It 'beats you over the head' with what you should be doing because there's only one thing you can do.

^I think we're all in agreement that DA:O's primary plot structure is just that: structured and can't be changed. But people are pointing out that choices can be made within that structure...

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 octobre 2011 - 04:05 .

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

Yeah, there really is no upside to becoming a warden, is there? The only good thing I can think of is an immunity to the blight; one that only lasts until said warden succombs to the taint and dies.

Yup. Well, personally i prefer to think there's some increase in the fighting ability (as some sort of side-effect to the changed metabolism, that stuff that makes the wardens supposedly eat a lot/burn through food at accelerated rate) but that's very much just personal interpretation/justification to the advantage PC gets stats-wise against regular enemies (in scenarios where the backstory can't cover that) and things like half-dead Duncan still stabbing the ogre to death all on his own.

Modifié par tmp7704, 23 octobre 2011 - 04:06 .

[In Exile]

Yrkoon wrote...
Sure, and in between battling logain's men at the border, then entering orlais, then finding/gathering the wardens, then ordering them to march, then returning to fereldan,  maybe the entire country will not have been completely blighted and  the roads/fields/paths to the arch demon impassable by then..

1) Who says you return to Ferelden? You wouldn't. It would be stupid to, for exactly the reason you point out:

 A 3rd warden. And enough to stop the blight, since the only thing required to stop the blight is 1) a Warden, and 2) someone talented enough to "listen in" and sense where the archdemon and his generals are

From an omniscient POV protecting anything is stupid, because killing the archdemon ends the blight full stop. And you need Grey Wardens. Staying in Ferelden at all is idiotic beyond measure in the omniscient sense, because only three people in the entire country can kill the archdemon. Whereas in Orlais, you have hundreds of Wardens.

But I wanted to avoid the omniscient POV precisely because the matter is in-character.

2) Killing Loghain's guards (lol at that, btw, using them as if they're a threat) and finding the Wardens and telling them about the blight is 100% less stupid than:

a) Invading a tower filled with abominations, including a Pride abomination (who according to the codex could threaten all of Thedas)... with 4 people.
Venturing down into the heard of the deep roads, fighting hundreds of darkspawn alone... with 3 other people.
c) Fighting an army of werewolves alone... with 3 people.

You talk about things being sucidal... but the Ferelden plan is beyond stupid.

That's ignoring the stupidest part of DA:O, which is that everyone attacked Denerim with... absolutely no plan to get the archdemon out of the sky, either than apparently Riordan trying out to see if the theory of gravity does, in fact, exist. 

Yrkoon wrote...
Oh and by the way, it's not 'omniscient clairvoyance' to just use the treaties you found, and the whole armies in your own country, since the game Beats. You. Over. The. Head. with what you should be doing,  and it also  reminds you of  promises of  armed resistance from the Crown to any Orlesian force who crosses the border.....

It's hard to offer you an intelligent alternative when you have some unstable fixation with saving Ferelden, when the whole point is that this is the choice of action that's stupid. 

Modifié par In Exile, 23 octobre 2011 - 04:21 .

[jlb524]

Yrkoon wrote...
^I think we're all in agreement that DA:O's primary plot structure is just that: structured and can't be changed. But people are pointing out that choices can be made within that structure...

I thought people were saying that choices can't be made in that structure as the story railroads you into defeating the Blight in one specific way when there could be other ways to do so (in theory) and some Wardens might want to pursue them but can't because 'though must' do it that one way.

Modifié par jlb524, 23 octobre 2011 - 04:17 .

[Mr.House]

Last time I checked, DAO was about stopping the Blgiht, not saving Ferelden. Saving Ferelden is a personal goal, not the focus. My Dalish and dwarf noble did not care about Ferelden, yet she and he was forced to stay and save it instead of getting more help.

[In Exile]

jlb524 wrote...
I thought people were saying that choices can't be made in that structure as the story railroads you into defeating the Blight in one specific way when there could be other ways to do so (in theory) and some Wardens might want to pursue them but can't because 'though must' do it that one way.

That was the hope. But Yrkoon has an issue with me ever since I caught him blatantly fabricating things in Laidlaw's companion armour thread. It's really aggravating. 

Modifié par In Exile, 23 octobre 2011 - 04:19 .

[tmp7704]

Mr.House wrote...

Last time I checked, DAO was about stopping the Blgiht, not saving Ferelden. Saving Ferelden is a personal goal, not the focus. My Dalish and dwarf noble did not care about Ferelden, yet she and he was forced to stay and save it instead of getting more help.

I think it's mostly about "stopping the Blight, within reasonable limits that ensure player gets some sort of a spotlight".

In theory yes, the game could allow the player to just cross the border to bring the news about the Blight (which to the receivers aren't actually news at all) and at that point do what you'd realistically expect -- that is, turn the player who is after all just a fresh, inexperienced warden into rank-and-file member of warden infantry, then reduce the actual experience to a battle few years down the road, in which you might kill the archdemon if you get lucky, or some other warden does.

[Yrkoon]

jlb524 wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
^I think we're all in agreement that DA:O's primary plot structure is just that: structured and can't be changed. But people are pointing out that choices can be made within that structure...

I thought people were saying that choices can't be made in that structure as the story railroads you into defeating the Blight in one specific way when there could be other ways to do so (in theory) and some Wardens might want to pursue them but can't because 'though must' do it that one way.

The game gives you 2 ways to defeat the Blight.  You can  choose the ultimate sacrifice, or you can do the dark ritual.    You can also choose from the assigned allies  (mages or templars, werewolves or Dalish, there's even Golems-Harromount-Bhelen choices)

The problem I have is when someone looks at all this and dismisses it away as not allowing for alternative motivations because the game doesn't let you  also call on the Maker and his blue lightning, or   retreat  to Orlais and find the Orlesian wardens!" or what ever.

Because that kind of  "but it's not enough" argument can be applied to ANY RPG. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 octobre 2011 - 04:30 .

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
In theory yes, the game could allow the player to just cross the border to bring the news about the Blight (which to the receivers aren't actually news at all) and at that point do what you'd realistically expect -- that is, turn the player who is after all just a fresh, inexperienced warden into rank-and-file member of warden infantry, then reduce the actual experience to a battle few years down the road, in which you might kill the archdemon if you get lucky, or some other warden does.

If we're going that route, then the wish fulfilment works the same way:

You still can gather allies, military setbacks can happen for others and victories can happen for you, and you can defeat the archdemon in personal combat.

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

If we're going that route, then the wish fulfilment works the same way:

You still can gather allies

What allies? You're a guy from Ferelden freshly turned warden. A literal nobody if there was one, and coming from a foreign country quite hated to boot. Who is going to even listen to you, nevermind follow you instead of high rank commanders and wardens already present in the country?

military setbacks can happen for others and victories can happen for you

You're not in command so there's no victories happening for you. The only reason you're in command in DAO is because every other warden within 400km radius except for one is dead, and the last remaining guy who is above you in the chain of command suffers from truly awful self-esteem.

and you can defeat the archdemon in personal combat.

Yes, i mentioned that option. If you're lucky, you may beat the few hundred other wardens present on the battlefield to making the final blow.

[Mr.House]

tmp7704 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Last time I checked, DAO was about stopping the Blgiht, not saving Ferelden. Saving Ferelden is a personal goal, not the focus. My Dalish and dwarf noble did not care about Ferelden, yet she and he was forced to stay and save it instead of getting more help.

I think it's mostly about "stopping the Blight, within reasonable limits that ensure player gets some sort of a spotlight".

In theory yes, the game could allow the player to just cross the border to bring the news about the Blight (which to the receivers aren't actually news at all) and at that point do what you'd realistically expect -- that is, turn the player who is after all just a fresh, inexperienced warden into rank-and-file member of warden infantry, then reduce the actual experience to a battle few years down the road, in which you might kill the archdemon if you get lucky, or some other warden does.

I eould agree, if at least m,y Wardens that did not care for Ferelden could at least attempt to leave. You say it once to AListair and he throws a hissyfit that makes me want to punch him

[Yrkoon]

aah yes, Raising the Bar so that our arguments look "cool"

I can't wait until we apply these same standards to DA2's train-track plot (this is the DA2 forum, isn't it?) and see if that game even comes close to DA:O's level, let alone  achieve the kind of player agency a couple of people here want from their games.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 23 octobre 2011 - 04:45 .

[Mr.House]

Yrkoon wrote...

aah yes, Raising the Bar so that our arguments look "cool"

I can't wait until we apply these same standards to DA2's train-track plot. (this is the DA2 forum, isn't it?) as see if that game even comes close to DA:O's level, let alone the kind of player agency a couple of people here want from their games.

Both are train-wreaks in my eyes, at least DA2 was good until Act 3 rolled out and created so many facepalms and ?s it's not funny.

[Sutekh]

In Exile wrote...

If we're going that route, then the wish fulfilment works the same way:

You still can gather allies, military setbacks can happen for others and victories can happen for you, and you can defeat the archdemon in personal combat.

And that would have been an entirely different story.

As it is, the spotlight is on you. You are the Warden (upper case), not some obscure grey warden (lower case) lost among dozens of other obscure grey wardens. You also, thanks to the treaties sub plots, get to learn a lot about not only Ferelden, but also Thedas in general: the Circle, Mages, Templar, Dalish, Dwarven politics, demons, the Fade, the Alienage, the Chantry...

Do you think your warden would have been allowed to go on his own and have all this adventuring? Or would you have spent the whole game either training in some Orlesian barracks or chasing darkspawn in the Deep Roads until everyone's ready to face them topside?

[Joy Divison]

Is the motivation factor you are describing not an inherent problem in all RPGs? Isn't there a sort of unwritten rule that if you are going to partake in a game as a PC, then you're just going to have to find some reason to care about the GM's world, BBEG, and the peasant village plagued by bandits?

I did find my warden more motivated in DA:O then my Hawke in DA:2 because even if I wasn't so moved by the Blight being something apocalyptic, through my accumulation of influence and power I could try an right certain wrongs or exact vengeance on those who screwed me over in the Origins story. As a Cousland, abandoning Ferelden for Orlais may have made more strategic sense (especially bc/ my family is known there), but my urge to murder-knife Howe was a very compelling reason to take Alistair's suggestion to head to Redcliffe.

Without a clear goal, DA:2 is more dependent on us supplying our internal motivation.

Edit: I suppose one could coutner that I could right certain wrongs in Kirkwall or gain vengence on those who screwed you over.  That is true, but to the OP's point, a lot of that has to be internalized and I think left up to the imagination.

As a Dalish elf in Origins, I did actually feel that my character could in fact help shape the destiny of her tribe -- not just by succeding in an seemingly impossible task and the cache of prestige that came, but also by determining who would be ruler of Ferelden (weak and pliable Alistair or a strong yet indebted Anora), killing the crazy Zathrian, forging a tie with the strong King Behlen, having a huge army, etc.

Perhaps the more a game allows you to choose AND see the results of those choices play out, the less one has to rely on internal motivation.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 23 octobre 2011 - 05:39 .

[Mr.House]

Joy Divison wrote...

Is the motivation factor you are describing is not an inherent problem in all RPGs? Isn't there a sort of unwritten rule that if you are going to partake in a game as a PC, then you're just going to have to find some reason to care about the GM's world, BBEG, and the peasant village plagued by bandits?

I did find my warden more motivated in DA:O then my Hawke in DA:2 because even if I wasn't so moved by the Blight being something apocalyptic, through my accumulation of influence and power I could try an right certain wrongs or exact vengeance on those who screwed me over in the Origins story. As a Cousland, abandoning Ferelden for Orlais may have made more strategic sense (especially sense my family is known there), but my urge to murder-knife Howe was a very compelling reason to take Alistair's suggestion to head to Redcliffe.

Without a clear goal, DA:2 is more dependent on us supplying our internal motivation.

My Hawkes goal was simple. Get rich,. get powerful, party, have sex and just enjoy life.