329 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

OldMan91 wrote...

I don't think it sounds like such a poor deal if you are unsure of your purpose in life. The real selling point of the Qunari religion, after all, is purpose. The Qun tells you what your purpose in life is, how you can serve that purpose, and surrounds you with a community of people similarly committed to fulfilling their respective purposes.

There's nothing wrong with someone suggesting what your "purpose" should be, what line of work you should be in or what skills/talents serve you best. After all we do have job aptitude tests and all that. The problem is not someone suggesting you what your purpose is; it's that they force you to have a purpose, to stick with a certain job.

It's as if since childhood you were told that your purpose was to work in retail shops. Maybe you think you can contribute more to society by being a researcher in a university? Too bad, it was decided for you to be a retail worker, and can only advance in that field... the best probably being a manager of the retail store.

It is as if you since childhood had this dream of becomming an astronaut, and then someone came along and saw your potential as astronaut, and then amde you an astronaut.

or

You had a dream to become an astronaut, then someone came along and saw you had no potential to become an astronaut, then made you something else..

Tell me how case 2 is any different than our society? And don't give that bullcrap "if you really want to, you can become anything you want to", because that is the simplest of lies told to appease the masses. You CANNOT become anything you want to, and the sooner you realize it, the better off you will be.

[OldMan91]

Not everyone is forced into the Qunari and it doesn't seem like everyone is forced to stick with the Qunari (Tallis' mentor was apparently allowed to walk away without consequence).

You do remember that the Qunari have waged war against the nations of Thedas for hundreds of years, right? Their imperialism and forced conversion of non-qunari people are notorious. In fact one of the quests you are given in DA2 is to hunt down Tal Vashoth. One Qunari member leaving does not invalidate what the Qunari have been doing for years.

As far as changing your mind about what your purpose is, I can't imagine such a thought would even cross the mind of the average Qunari. How many Andrastians have ever even entertained the thought that the Maker doesn't exist?

It is of course difficult to to leave such a rigid society, which indoctrinates you from Birth to Death with the ideas of the Qun, but not impossible (as the Tal Vashoth prove). Comparing a philosophy or code that imposes a purpose on you to believing in God or the Maker is a wrong comparison. You can still choose your purpose in life regardless of whether you believe in the Maker or not.

While the rigidity of the Qun seems like it would make for an unpleasant and uncomfortable lifestyle, that rigidity is the price one pays for getting the answer to the most important question in life. I can understand the appeal.

Any free man can answer those questions and choose their purpose or look for advice. It is simply a price not worth paying. Certainly there is an intellectual appeal to researching such a society, but in practical terms it is not desirable. A rigid stagnant society makes for poor progress.

As Bioshock antagonist Andrew Ryan famously said, "A man chooses, a slave obeys".

You had a dream to become an astronaut, then someone came along and saw you had no potential to become an astronaut, then made you something else..

Tell me how case 2 is any different than our society? And don't give that bullcrap "if you really want to, you can become anything you want to", because that is the simplest of lies told to appease the masses. You CANNOT become anything you want to, and the sooner you realize it, the better off you will be.

You're right. No one can become whatever they want. Not everyone has the skills or talents to be an astronaut. However that does not invalidate my argument. Within the limitations of society or your own, you should have as much freedom as possible to choose what kind of profession you want. In fact we have instruments in our society to achieve just that. It's called public education.

Modifié par OldMan91, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:13 .

[TEWR]

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Which is only natural for a superior society.

Which it's not.

It kinda is. It's a superiority complex of sorts. I'm fairly certain that history has shown us that many countries would see their societies as superior to their neighbor's and would launch an invasion to conquer the land. However, there may have been other factors at work for the declaration of war, but the point stands.

Thedas sure has with Orlais and Tevinter.

Is it reprehensible? Yes. Is it normal in the sense that it's been happening for a long time? Yes

[Bayz]

It is called human nature I think.

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

OldMan91 wrote...

Not everyone is forced into the Qunari and it doesn't seem like everyone is forced to stick with the Qunari (Tallis' mentor was apparently allowed to walk away without consequence).

You do remember that the Qunari have waged war against the nations of Thedas for hundreds of years, right? Their imperialism and forced conversion of non-qunari people are notorious. In fact one of the quests you are given in DA2 is to hunt down Tal Vashoth. One Qunari member leaving does not invalidate what the Qunari have been doing for years. 

That quest is given to you by a Dwarf who wants to open negotiations with the Arishok. The Qunari made no such request to anyone else than the Qunari. And the Tal-Vasoth they hunt down are the desserters. You know what a common punishment for dessertion is? Death. So why is it wrong for the Qunari to punish their desserters, with the exact same punishment, that all other nations do?

[Bayz]

Because they don't follow the chant of light, therefore they are going to the evil part of the fade.

[OldMan91]

That quest is given to you by a Dwarf who wants to open negotiations with the Arishok. The Qunari made no such request to anyone else than the Qunari. And the Tal-Vasoth they hunt down are the desserters. You know what a common punishment for dessertion is? Death. So why is it wrong for the Qunari to punish their desserters, with the exact same punishment, that all other nations do?

Certainly desertion leading to death is a common punishment for soldiers who desert. This is the same in all nations. The difference is that in non-Qunari nations, you have the freedom to retire. In Qunari nations, you are considered Tal-Vashoth regardless if you are a soldier or not, if you abandon the Qun. And there is no way of doing that legally.

Modifié par OldMan91, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:33 .

[jamesp81]

kyles3 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

The qun basically offers to not hurt your feelings and/or make you feel valuable.  In return, you accept it's commands to committ all manner of criminality and immorality and you do so without question. Or die.  Now, that sounds like a poor deal when  I say it this way, and thats because it really IS a poor deal.  One should not underestimate the insecurity and pride of your average person and just how much that can be leveraged by an unscrupulous person with something to sell.

I don't think it sounds like such a poor deal if you are unsure of your purpose in life. The real selling point of the Qunari religion, after all, is purpose. The Qun tells you what your purpose in life is, how you can serve that purpose, and surrounds you with a community of people similarly committed to fulfilling their respective purposes. 

To me that doesn't sound much different from what the Chantry sells. One may criticize--with good reason--the way the Qunari treat their mages, but what percentage of Qun-followers are involved in actively "torturing" mages (I use quotation marks only because the one Saarebas we speak to seemed to value purpose over physical well-being, and while one unstable man's feelings do not justify the harsh treatment he received, I do think it's worth considering)? I'd wager roughly the same percentage of Andrastians who are actively involved in imprisoning and torturing (one could argue that the Rite of Tranquility is far worse than anything the Qunari do) the mages in their own Circles.

Tallis brings up the fact that there are thousands of Qunari (maybe she said more than that, I don't remember) who have nothing to do with hurting anybody, be they their own or those outside the Qun. I don't think the way that some Qunari treat mages is a sufficient reason for condemning the religion any more than the way some Andrastians treat mages is a sufficient reason for condemning the Chantry.

First of all, the qunari do practice a kind of tranquility.  They have a drug called Qamek (I think that's the correct spelling) that does much the same thing.  They use it on people who reject their philosophy and turn them into mindless slave labor.  Some have suggested that the Qamek is worse than tranquility in that it completely destroys the mind where tranquility only destroys part of it.  This is not said in game, however, and is only opinion.  What's not opinion is that the effects of qamek are at least as severe as tranquility, as far as it as been described in conversation in DA2.

The Saarebas had been brainwashed from his youth to behave as he does, but, it was still his choice.  That's fine; I don't propose we take away his choice to live that way.  I do propose that the qunari not force that choice on anyone else, which is an act of evil, and which they have every intention of doing.

There is no evidence in the game that those who do not follow the Andrastian faith are persecuted in such a way as qunari detractors.  Non-Andrastians have yet to be seen to be imprisoned, tortured, or executed for their non-belief.  The qun, however, does exactly that to its detractors.  You simply cannot compare the Chantry to the qun and call them the same, because they're anything but.  The Chantry doesn't even come close to the level of closed-mindedness and cruelty that the qun has practiced.

[EmperorSahlertz]

OldMan91 wrote...

That quest is given to you by a Dwarf who wants to open negotiations with the Arishok. The Qunari made no such request to anyone else than the Qunari. And the Tal-Vasoth they hunt down are the desserters. You know what a common punishment for dessertion is? Death. So why is it wrong for the Qunari to punish their desserters, with the exact same punishment, that all other nations do?

Certainly desertion leading to death is a common punishment for soldiers who desert. This is the same in all nations. The difference is that in non-Qunari nations, you have the freedom to retire. In Qunari nations, you are considered Tal-Vashoth regardless if you are a soldier or not, if you abandon the Qun. And there is no way of doing that legally.

I am guessing that once a Qunari soldier reach an age where he is unable or unfit to fight, he will be allowed to retire. I even seem to recall a post about it. They will then retire to become "teachers" of sorts, teaching to others and such.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:37 .

[OldMan91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

That quest is given to you by a Dwarf who wants to open negotiations with the Arishok. The Qunari made no such request to anyone else than the Qunari. And the Tal-Vasoth they hunt down are the desserters. You know what a common punishment for dessertion is? Death. So why is it wrong for the Qunari to punish their desserters, with the exact same punishment, that all other nations do?

Certainly desertion leading to death is a common punishment for soldiers who desert. This is the same in all nations. The difference is that in non-Qunari nations, you have the freedom to retire. In Qunari nations, you are considered Tal-Vashoth regardless if you are a soldier or not, if you abandon the Qun. And there is no way of doing that legally.

I am guessing that once a Qunari soldier reach an age where he is unable or unfit to fight, he will be allowed to retire. I even seem to recall a post about it. They will then retire to become "teachers" of sorts, teaching to others and such.

That's a reasonable assumption. Of course this refers to retirement when one comes to a certain age where it's impossible to perform your job properly. Leaving the military legally speaking is impossible in the Qun, regardless of your age.

[Herr Uhl]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I am guessing that once a Qunari soldier reach an age where he is unable or unfit to fight, he will be allowed to retire. I even seem to recall a post about it. They will then retire to become "teachers" of sorts, teaching to others and such.

They may either take up teaching the new ones, or if they aren't able to do that, they're kept care of.

That said, many also commit suicide once they loose their role, which has been their entire identity.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You are on your path, there is no going back. You have been given the role in which you will excel, there will be no reason to leave the military. At least that is the ideal.

[kyles3]

OldMan91 wrote...

Not everyone is forced into the Qunari and it doesn't seem like everyone is forced to stick with the Qunari (Tallis' mentor was apparently allowed to walk away without consequence).

You do remember that the Qunari have waged war against the nations of Thedas for hundreds of years, right? Their imperialism and forced conversion of non-qunari people are notorious. In fact one of the quests you are given in DA2 is to hunt down Tal Vashoth. One Qunari member leaving does not invalidate what the Qunari have been doing for years.

I don't think we've seen enough of how Qunari society works to say anything decisive, so I wouldn't claim to. All I can do is point to examples that we've seen. Maybe it's not as bad as it seems, maybe it's worse. As far as waging war goes, again I would say that because some Qunari wage war (rember that they're not all soldiers), that doesn't mean that every Qunari should be held responsible for every death or forced conversion. Should every Andrastian be held accountable for what some Andrastians perpetrated during Exalted Marches?

As far as changing your mind about what your purpose is, I can't imagine such a thought would even cross the mind of the average Qunari. How many Andrastians have ever even entertained the thought that the Maker doesn't exist?

It is of course difficult to to leave such a rigid society, which indoctrinates you from Birth to Death with the ideas of the Qun, but not impossible (as the Tal Vashoth prove). Comparing a philosophy or code that imposes a purpose on you to believing in God or the Maker is a wrong comparison. You can still choose your purpose in life regardless of whether you believe in the Maker or not.

I disagree that belief in God is any less of a cradle-to-grave indoctrination than the tenets of the Qun. The vast majority of humans from the very beginning have believed in some kind of supernatural oversight, and the vast majority of that vast majority could not imagine a world without it.

While the rigidity of the Qun seems like it would make for an unpleasant and uncomfortable lifestyle, that rigidity is the price one pays for getting the answer to the most important question in life. I can understand the appeal.

Any free man can answer those questions and choose their purpose or look for advice. It is simply a price not worth paying. Certainly there is an intellectual appeal to researching such a society, but in practical terms it is not desirable. A rigid stagnant society makes for poor progress.
 

I don't know that there really is such a thing as a free man, and I don't know of any man or woman who has really answered the question of why we're here. If we had an answer, we wouldn't still be asking it thousands of years into our existence. It seems like all we can do is exchange ideas until we die, and then maybe we'll find the answer. Getting the answer without dying is part of what any religion promises, and since the vast majority are religious, it seems many do think the price is worth paying -- that giving up some (or many) of your freedoms to honor someone or something (the Qun is a "thing," right?) higher than yourself in order to get the answer is a fair deal.

If you think the Qunari religion is more harsh than other religions--less receptive to the free exchange of ideas--fair enough. I just don't think we've been given a clear enough picture of how the religion is practiced by its laypeople to make that judgment.

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
The qun basically offers to not hurt your feelings and/or make you feel valuable.  In return, you accept it's commands to committ all manner of criminality and immorality and you do so without question.

What criminality? What immorality?
You seem to have a habit of saying random condemning statements about the qunari without actually ever making genuine criticisms.

I was wondering when you'd show up.

Qunari criminality includes slavery, brainwashing, a stated policy of violating previously signed international agreements, torture and mutliation of mages, execution or exile of political / religious dissidents, and imperialism.  

Also, selective breeding programs.  I know they do this among their own kind.  I am curious to know if in conquered lands, if established marriages are respected or if they force people to have sex with others to satisfy the demands of the breeding program.  If so, you can put that on the list too.

They don't torture their mages... It is a strong word, so I cans ee why your kind would use it... However it doesn't fit, so it is wrong to use... Again, I wouldn't be surprised if you continue to though... They do mutilate their mages, but then again, they have their reasons, since the mutilation only occurs as punishment for when a Saarebas casts magic without permission.

And what slavery exactly are you referring to? If it is the Qamek, then it isn't truly slavery, since they are merely putting the dead vessel of a person to good use. If you are talking about the QUnari people as a whole, then again you are wrong to use the word slavery, since again, it doesn't fit. At all actually. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if you keep uising it.

Oh lord, what you say? They broke an agreement?! Call the whaaaaambulance, because this affront to nature is surely unprecedented!!............................ It isn't? Well it is certainly MORE wrong when the Qunari does it!!

They don't brainwash anymore than any other school of thought does. In our western world, we are often taught that capitalism and democracy is far superior to any other form of government. We are bred, taught, and brainwashed to believe this. So it is not wrong for the Qunari to teach their people that the Qun is superior, since that is what ALL ideologies and religions do. ALL of them.


Imperialism is certainly not a crime either, so the only "crime" to speak of is the exile/imprisonment/execution of any Tal-Vasoth or bas. However that is fully within the rights of the Qunari sovereignty. The Qunari society is build up, and held, upon the pillars of the Qun, if people refuse to be a part of the Qun, they clearly cannot remain in Qunari lands. So it is simply to choose to either be a part of the Qun, or get the **** out of their lands. So again, not a crime.

So basically they commit no crimes, or any acts of immorality. You simply don't agree with them. Which is fair, just don't try and tie a lot of big words to them, especially when none of them fit, at all.

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Which is only natural for a superior society.

Which it's not.

I suppose that is why the Qunari could conquer all of Thedas if they wanted to.... Sure that is only because the setting says they could, but that is however how Thedas is, and therefore the Qunari are superior right now.

Strength does not imply superiority.  It only implies strength.

Or to use a phrase of a certain Saarebas, "Just because you beat him does not make him wrong."  By extension, just because they can beat their enemies doesn't make them right, either.

You can deny all you want.  Occupying foreign lands that didn't choose to become qunari and then forcing the qunari faith on them is an act of evil.  The qamek is a form of slavery.  Mages are mutilated.

Sometimes, the truth presents itself clearly.  This is one of those cases.

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Which is only natural for a superior society.

Which it's not.

It kinda is. It's a superiority complex of sorts. I'm fairly certain that history has shown us that many countries would see their societies as superior to their neighbor's and would launch an invasion to conquer the land. However, there may have been other factors at work for the declaration of war, but the point stands.

Thedas sure has with Orlais and Tevinter.

Is it reprehensible? Yes. Is it normal in the sense that it's been happening for a long time? Yes

It does depend on how you define superiority.  Most people naturally view their own culture as better, otherwise they'd subscribe to a different culture.  Just because they believe their own culture superior does not make it so, however.  The notable thing about the qunari is that they start killing people if they decide to subscribe to something besides the qun.  The Chantry does not do this.  This gives us a very concrete difference between the two that can easily be analyzed and that analysis tells us something very unpleasant about the qun.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Qunari conquer lands, to live in Qunari lands you must submit to Qunari rules or get the **** out of their lands. Simple as that, the Qunari have rightful control of the lands they conquer, nothing else matters. That a people were too weak to defend themselves and then end up under Qunari control is not "evil" as you proclaim. It is simply the jungle law in effect, "might makes right".
The ones who truly abhor the idea of the Qun, should've gotten as far away from the fighting as they could, or died defending their lands. The rest, didn't care, and probably won't care.

Qamek is not a form of slavery, it is a form of forced labor, even though it is hardly "forced" since the person doing the labor is braindead, and hardly a person anymore. The Qamek is simply an empty shell being utilized.

Mages are mutilated, yes. But that is only part of the picture, especially when said mutilations only occur as punishment for a crime (casting magic without permission).

And yes, superiority is 100% about who is the mightiest. Hawke was superior to the Arvaarad, hence he beat him in combat. Hawke was however not mightier than the very idea of the Qun, and therefore he could not convince the Saarebas to leave the Qun. A common mistake about the "Might makes Right" rule, is that people tend to only ascribe it to actual physical might, and then disregards all other forms of "might" that exists.

[kyles3]

jamesp81 wrote...

There is no evidence in the game that those who do not follow the Andrastian faith are persecuted in such a way as qunari detractors.  Non-Andrastians have yet to be seen to be imprisoned, tortured, or executed for their non-belief.  The qun, however, does exactly that to its detractors.  You simply cannot compare the Chantry to the qun and call them the same, because they're anything but.  The Chantry doesn't even come close to the level of closed-mindedness and cruelty that the qun has practiced.

No evidence in the game? How about the state of the elven race? We don't see the Chantry imprisoning, torturing, or executing, but we see the long-term consequences of their imprisoning, torturing, and executing elves during the Exalted March of the Dales.

I think there are relatively few individuals within the Chantry who are cruel and close-minded, but their ideas are just liable to be twisted into justifying cruel behavior as those of the Qun.

Modifié par kyles3, 03 novembre 2011 - 02:59 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

jamesp81 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Which is only natural for a superior society.

Which it's not.

It kinda is. It's a superiority complex of sorts. I'm fairly certain that history has shown us that many countries would see their societies as superior to their neighbor's and would launch an invasion to conquer the land. However, there may have been other factors at work for the declaration of war, but the point stands.

Thedas sure has with Orlais and Tevinter.

Is it reprehensible? Yes. Is it normal in the sense that it's been happening for a long time? Yes

It does depend on how you define superiority.  Most people naturally view their own culture as better, otherwise they'd subscribe to a different culture.  Just because they believe their own culture superior does not make it so, however.  The notable thing about the qunari is that they start killing people if they decide to subscribe to something besides the qun.  The Chantry does not do this.  This gives us a very concrete difference between the two that can easily be analyzed and that analysis tells us something very unpleasant about the qun.

1: No. The Qunari does not kill anyone who leaves the Qun. They kill only the ones who are deemed a threat to the Qunari, and the ones who remain in Qunari lands, and prey upon the Qunari people. But I guess the Qunari are wrong to neutralize threats towards themselves?

2: The Chantry cannot be compared to the Qunari, because the Chantry are not the governing body of any nation in Thedas. Orlais, Ferelden, hell any nation on Thedas, and even our world, will try and capture and force society on anyone who don't want to be a part of it.
If I don't want to be a part of the world, but choose to remain in it, I will be forced by the world to be a part of it. That is how society works. The Qunari however, simply kill anyone who repeatedly refuses to be a part of their society, and also refuses to leave their lands. Which is arguably their right to do.

[OldMan91]

I don't think we've seen enough of how Qunari society works to say anything decisive, so I wouldn't claim to. All I can do is point to examples that we've seen. Maybe it's not as bad as it seems, maybe it's worse. As far as waging war goes, again I would say that because some Qunari wage war (rember that they're not all soldiers), that doesn't mean that every Qunari should be held responsible for every death or forced conversion. Should every Andrastian be held accountable for what some Andrastians perpetrated during Exalted Marches?

There is ample evidence in the game, from Codex entries to witnesses, to clearly say that the Qun is a philosophy or religion which has, at its core, a doctrine of forced conversion and assimilation. This is imperialism and quite reprehensible. Of course I've never made the claim that all Qunari members in society are to blame. Then again it's Fictional Land™ and you'll probably tell me to keep an open mind. I can do so only within the framework of a society that allows the free exchange of ideas.

I disagree that belief in God is any less of a cradle-to-grave indoctrination than the tenets of the Qun. The vast majority of humans from the very beginning have believed in some kind of supernatural oversight, and the vast majority of that vast majority could not imagine a world without it.

Whether they believe in God or the Maker from birth to death doesn't matter. They still have the freedom to choose their own purpose, whether it's influenced by their religious beliefs or not. It's not different than believing in ideals, principles or morality.

If you think the Qunari religion is more harsh than other religions--less receptive to the free exchange of ideas--fair enough. I just don't think we've been given a clear enough picture of how the religion is practiced by its laypeople to make that judgment.

We've already been told by Word of God (the writers) how Qunari society more or less functions. You can check the Dragon Age Wiki or the Codex entries. Hell, ask Sten as a female Warden. There is more than enough evidence to say that it's not a desirable society.

Modifié par OldMan91, 03 novembre 2011 - 04:12 .

[jamesp81]

kyles3 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

There is no evidence in the game that those who do not follow the Andrastian faith are persecuted in such a way as qunari detractors.  Non-Andrastians have yet to be seen to be imprisoned, tortured, or executed for their non-belief.  The qun, however, does exactly that to its detractors.  You simply cannot compare the Chantry to the qun and call them the same, because they're anything but.  The Chantry doesn't even come close to the level of closed-mindedness and cruelty that the qun has practiced.

No evidence in the game? How about the state of the elven race? We don't see the Chantry imprisoning, torturing, or executing, but we see the long-term consequences of their imprisoning, torturing, and executing elves during the Exalted March of the Dales.

I think there are relatively few individuals within the Chantry who are cruel and close-minded, but their ideas are just liable to be twisted into justifying cruel behavior as those of the Qun.

The Chantry treated elves badly in the past, and probably does still to some degree where city elves are concerned, although I'm not aware of a specific case in either game where a city elf was treated poorly by a Chantry official due to being an elf.

I don't view it as legitimate to hold current members of the Chantry responsible for an exalted march that happened 7 centuries before any of them were born.  That doesn't make sense.

The elves, however, DO have a raw deal, no doubt about that.  That's largely at the hands of the nobility and not the Chantry.  In fact, we even see in the city elf origin that a Chantry sister, a human no less, has enough respect among the elves to go into the Denerim alienage and conduct religious ceremonies.  We also have Sebastian, a brother of the Chantry, proposing to a former elven slave that he come to Starkhaven and teach the elves to fight.  The Chantry of seven centuries past did the elves wrong; the modern Chantry, however, has not been shown to be particularly callous towards them.

In any case, it's true that the elves are in a bad place in Thedas at the hands of the nobles.  Converting to the qun, however, is not an improvement on that situation.

Modifié par jamesp81, 03 novembre 2011 - 03:25 .

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Qunari conquer lands, to live in Qunari lands you must submit to Qunari rules or get the **** out of their lands. Simple as that, the Qunari have rightful control of the lands they conquer, nothing else matters. That a people were too weak to defend themselves and then end up under Qunari control is not "evil" as you proclaim. It is simply the jungle law in effect, "might makes right".
The ones who truly abhor the idea of the Qun, should've gotten as far away from the fighting as they could, or died defending their lands. The rest, didn't care, and probably won't care.

Qamek is not a form of slavery, it is a form of forced labor, even though it is hardly "forced" since the person doing the labor is braindead, and hardly a person anymore. The Qamek is simply an empty shell being utilized.

Mages are mutilated, yes. But that is only part of the picture, especially when said mutilations only occur as punishment for a crime (casting magic without permission).

And yes, superiority is 100% about who is the mightiest. Hawke was superior to the Arvaarad, hence he beat him in combat. Hawke was however not mightier than the very idea of the Qun, and therefore he could not convince the Saarebas to leave the Qun. A common mistake about the "Might makes Right" rule, is that people tend to only ascribe it to actual physical might, and then disregards all other forms of "might" that exists.

Alright, fine.  I know when I've been successfully trolled.  Well played, sirB)

[EmperorSahlertz]

It isn't? In the Qun they would actually be treated as an equal, and given a purpose other than begging for scrabs... I would say that the Qun is a vast improvement for a city elf.

[kyles3]

[quote]OldMan91 wrote...

[quote]I don't think we've seen enough of how Qunari society works to say anything decisive, so I wouldn't claim to. All I can do is point to examples that we've seen. Maybe it's not as bad as it seems, maybe it's worse. As far as waging war goes, again I would say that because some Qunari wage war (rember that they're not all soldiers), that doesn't mean that every Qunari should be held responsible for every death or forced conversion. Should every Andrastian be held accountable for what some Andrastians perpetrated during Exalted Marches?[/quote]
There is ample evidence in the game, from Codex entries to witnesses, to clearly say that the Qun is a philosophy or religion which has, at its core, a doctrine of forced conversation and assimilation. This is imperialism and quite reprehensible. Of course I've never made the claim that all Qunari members in society are to blame. Then again it's Fictional Land™ and you'll probably tell me to keep an open mind. I can do so only within the framework of a society that allows the free exchange of ideas.[/quote]

Andrastians are told to spread the Chant to all four corners of the world. Can that be twisted by some into forced conversion and assimilation? It certainly has been. My main purpose in mentioning that most Qunari and most Andrastians do not wage war was to point out that one can follow a religion and not wage war. I think there are many more reasons why the Qunari have waged wars besides their religious beliefs.

[quote][quote]I disagree that belief in God is any less of a cradle-to-grave indoctrination than the tenets of the Qun. The vast majority of humans from the very beginning have believed in some kind of supernatural oversight, and the vast majority of that vast majority could not imagine a world without it.[/quote]
Whether they believe in God or the Maker from birth to death doesn't matter. They still have the freedom to choose their own purpose, whether it's influenced by their religious beliefs or not. It's not different than believing in ideals, principles or morality.[/quote]

If one chooses to follow a religion, one accepts a loss of certain freedoms. An Andrastian can choose her own purpose, but not any purpose. She can not, for example, choose to dedicate her life to practicing blood magic, because in doing so she would cease to be an Andrastian. It is true that some religions are more restrictive than others, but there must be something to be gained from a religion such as that of the Qunari or else no one would freely choose it (as many apparently have).

[quote][quote]If you think the Qunari religion is more harsh than other religions--less receptive to the free exchange of ideas--fair enough. I just don't think we've been given a clear enough picture of how the religion is practiced by its laypeople to make that judgment.[/quote]
We've already been told by Word of God (the writers) how Qunari society more or less functions. You can check the Dragon Age Wiki or the Codex entries. Hell, ask Sten as a female Warden. There is more than enough evidence to say that it's not a desirable society.[/quote][/quote]

It's apparently a desirable society for some, isn't it? And while I'll grant you that the picture that's been painted of it has not been pretty, I think Tallis' arguments on behalf of the Qunari are an indication that there's more to it than what we've been presented with.

You may think that now would be the part where I tell you to keep an open mind, but I don't believe that you're obligated to do so if you have strong objections based on what you've observed. I keep an open mind because I'm a person who likes questions more than answers, but I'd hardly call that a virtue. 

Modifié par kyles3, 03 novembre 2011 - 03:46 .

[kyles3]

jamesp81 wrote...

kyles3 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

There is no evidence in the game that those who do not follow the Andrastian faith are persecuted in such a way as qunari detractors.  Non-Andrastians have yet to be seen to be imprisoned, tortured, or executed for their non-belief.  The qun, however, does exactly that to its detractors.  You simply cannot compare the Chantry to the qun and call them the same, because they're anything but.  The Chantry doesn't even come close to the level of closed-mindedness and cruelty that the qun has practiced.

No evidence in the game? How about the state of the elven race? We don't see the Chantry imprisoning, torturing, or executing, but we see the long-term consequences of their imprisoning, torturing, and executing elves during the Exalted March of the Dales.

I think there are relatively few individuals within the Chantry who are cruel and close-minded, but their ideas are just liable to be twisted into justifying cruel behavior as those of the Qun.

The Chantry treated elves badly in the past, and probably does still to some degree where city elves are concerned, although I'm not aware of a specific case in either game where a city elf was treated poorly by a Chantry official due to being an elf.

I don't view it as legitimate to hold current members of the Chantry responsible for an exalted march that happened 7 centuries before any of them were born.  That doesn't make sense.

The elves, however, DO have a raw deal, no doubt about that.  That's largely at the hands of the nobility and not the Chantry.  In fact, we even see in the city elf origin that a Chantry sister, a human no less, has enough respect among the elves to go into the Denerim alienage and conduct religious ceremonies.  We also have Sebastian, a brother of the Chantry, proposing to a former elven slave that he come to Starkhaven and teach the elves to fight.  The Chantry of seven centuries past did the elves wrong; the modern Chantry, however, has not been shown to be particularly callous towards them.

In any case, it's true that the elves are in a bad place in Thedas at the hands of the nobles.  Converting to the qun, however, is not an improvement on that situation.

If Andrastians treating elves kindly is a point in favor of the Chantry, then Qunari treating elves kindly (or at least fairly, which most elves would certainly consider a kindness) must be a point in favor of the Qun. I agree that it's unfair to hold members of the Chantry responsible for something they had no part in, but my point is that the vast majority of Qunari are not soldiers, and therefore have no part in waging war, forcing conversions, or mistreating mages.

I am not convinced that the behavior of a religion's followers is a good way to make a case for or against any religion. The best way I know to judge a religion is to examine what it teaches, and I don't see Qunari teaching as being any more or less inherently harmful than Chantry teaching. 

Modifié par kyles3, 03 novembre 2011 - 04:03 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

I don't think it sounds like such a poor deal if you are unsure of your purpose in life. The real selling point of the Qunari religion, after all, is purpose. The Qun tells you what your purpose in life is, how you can serve that purpose, and surrounds you with a community of people similarly committed to fulfilling their respective purposes.

There's nothing wrong with someone suggesting what your "purpose" should be, what line of work you should be in or what skills/talents serve you best. After all we do have job aptitude tests and all that. The problem is not someone suggesting you what your purpose is; it's that they force you to have a purpose, to stick with a certain job.

It's as if since childhood you were told that your purpose was to work in retail shops. Maybe you think you can contribute more to society by being a researcher in a university? Too bad, it was decided for you to be a retail worker, and can only advance in that field... the best probably being a manager of the retail store.

It is as if you since childhood had this dream of becomming an astronaut, and then someone came along and saw your potential as astronaut, and then amde you an astronaut.

or

You had a dream to become an astronaut, then someone came along and saw you had no potential to become an astronaut, then made you something else..

Tell me how case 2 is any different than our society? And don't give that bullcrap "if you really want to, you can become anything you want to", because that is the simplest of lies told to appease the masses. You CANNOT become anything you want to, and the sooner you realize it, the better off you will be.

Let's turn that around. Let's say you're a woman, who wanted to be a soldier, or a man who wanted to be civil administrator. The Qun wouldn't allow you to do that, under any circumstances, because they have unsubstantiated claims that one gender is instrinsicaly better at one job than the other. It doesn't matter how the individual fares at a task, because the Qunari believe that it is simply not done.

Only the Qunari will claim that they are true meritocrats.