329 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayz]

The way the Qun decides roles reminds me the first episode of Futurama for some reason...

[EmperorSahlertz]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

I don't think it sounds like such a poor deal if you are unsure of your purpose in life. The real selling point of the Qunari religion, after all, is purpose. The Qun tells you what your purpose in life is, how you can serve that purpose, and surrounds you with a community of people similarly committed to fulfilling their respective purposes.

There's nothing wrong with someone suggesting what your "purpose" should be, what line of work you should be in or what skills/talents serve you best. After all we do have job aptitude tests and all that. The problem is not someone suggesting you what your purpose is; it's that they force you to have a purpose, to stick with a certain job.

It's as if since childhood you were told that your purpose was to work in retail shops. Maybe you think you can contribute more to society by being a researcher in a university? Too bad, it was decided for you to be a retail worker, and can only advance in that field... the best probably being a manager of the retail store.

It is as if you since childhood had this dream of becomming an astronaut, and then someone came along and saw your potential as astronaut, and then amde you an astronaut.

or

You had a dream to become an astronaut, then someone came along and saw you had no potential to become an astronaut, then made you something else..

Tell me how case 2 is any different than our society? And don't give that bullcrap "if you really want to, you can become anything you want to", because that is the simplest of lies told to appease the masses. You CANNOT become anything you want to, and the sooner you realize it, the better off you will be.

Let's turn that around. Let's say you're a woman, who wanted to be a soldier, or a man who wanted to be civil administrator. The Qun wouldn't allow you to do that, under any circumstances, because they have unsubstantiated claims that one gender is instrinsicaly better at one job than the other. It doesn't matter how the individual fares at a task, because the Qunari believe that it is simply not done.

Only the Qunari will claim that they are true meritocrats.

Have you seen the differences between a male and female Kossith? It does not boggle the mind why aa Qunari would find a male to be a superior fighter, given the differences of the sexes. Also, once humans and Elves become more common within the Qunari, perhaps they will reevaluate their stance on women in the army, since female and male humans/Elves have little differences. And if a man exhibits remarkable administrative talents, he may not become civil administrator, but he could be given hundreds of different roles, such as taskmasters or overseer, all of which culd draw on his administrative talents. Likewise with the female, if she has shown remarkable talent for fighting, there are many roles she can be given, in which her talents will be put to use. They aren't going to stick a remarkable female fighter in an administrative task, just because she is female. They aren't going to put her in the army either though. But the Ben-Hasrath are probably always in need of more Tallis'.

[CrimsonZephyr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

I don't think it sounds like such a poor deal if you are unsure of your purpose in life. The real selling point of the Qunari religion, after all, is purpose. The Qun tells you what your purpose in life is, how you can serve that purpose, and surrounds you with a community of people similarly committed to fulfilling their respective purposes.

There's nothing wrong with someone suggesting what your "purpose" should be, what line of work you should be in or what skills/talents serve you best. After all we do have job aptitude tests and all that. The problem is not someone suggesting you what your purpose is; it's that they force you to have a purpose, to stick with a certain job.

It's as if since childhood you were told that your purpose was to work in retail shops. Maybe you think you can contribute more to society by being a researcher in a university? Too bad, it was decided for you to be a retail worker, and can only advance in that field... the best probably being a manager of the retail store.

It is as if you since childhood had this dream of becomming an astronaut, and then someone came along and saw your potential as astronaut, and then amde you an astronaut.

or

You had a dream to become an astronaut, then someone came along and saw you had no potential to become an astronaut, then made you something else..

Tell me how case 2 is any different than our society? And don't give that bullcrap "if you really want to, you can become anything you want to", because that is the simplest of lies told to appease the masses. You CANNOT become anything you want to, and the sooner you realize it, the better off you will be.

Let's turn that around. Let's say you're a woman, who wanted to be a soldier, or a man who wanted to be civil administrator. The Qun wouldn't allow you to do that, under any circumstances, because they have unsubstantiated claims that one gender is instrinsicaly better at one job than the other. It doesn't matter how the individual fares at a task, because the Qunari believe that it is simply not done.

Only the Qunari will claim that they are true meritocrats.

Have you seen the differences between a male and female Kossith? It does not boggle the mind why aa Qunari would find a male to be a superior fighter, given the differences of the sexes. Also, once humans and Elves become more common within the Qunari, perhaps they will reevaluate their stance on women in the army, since female and male humans/Elves have little differences.

Kossith women, who are, pound for pound, probably the most muscular women we've seen in the 'verse so far, if concept art is anything to go by? Sure, there's a fair amount of sexual dimorphism, greater than humans, in kossith women, but if human women have the physical capability for battle, I really don't see how six-foot tall amazon ladies would fair any worse, outside of the fact that they lack training.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Bayz wrote...

The way the Qun decides roles reminds me the first episode of Futurama for some reason...

Now THAT is what I'd want to see as a Dragon Age web series.

[EmperorSahlertz]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

I don't think it sounds like such a poor deal if you are unsure of your purpose in life. The real selling point of the Qunari religion, after all, is purpose. The Qun tells you what your purpose in life is, how you can serve that purpose, and surrounds you with a community of people similarly committed to fulfilling their respective purposes.

There's nothing wrong with someone suggesting what your "purpose" should be, what line of work you should be in or what skills/talents serve you best. After all we do have job aptitude tests and all that. The problem is not someone suggesting you what your purpose is; it's that they force you to have a purpose, to stick with a certain job.

It's as if since childhood you were told that your purpose was to work in retail shops. Maybe you think you can contribute more to society by being a researcher in a university? Too bad, it was decided for you to be a retail worker, and can only advance in that field... the best probably being a manager of the retail store.

It is as if you since childhood had this dream of becomming an astronaut, and then someone came along and saw your potential as astronaut, and then amde you an astronaut.

or

You had a dream to become an astronaut, then someone came along and saw you had no potential to become an astronaut, then made you something else..

Tell me how case 2 is any different than our society? And don't give that bullcrap "if you really want to, you can become anything you want to", because that is the simplest of lies told to appease the masses. You CANNOT become anything you want to, and the sooner you realize it, the better off you will be.

Let's turn that around. Let's say you're a woman, who wanted to be a soldier, or a man who wanted to be civil administrator. The Qun wouldn't allow you to do that, under any circumstances, because they have unsubstantiated claims that one gender is instrinsicaly better at one job than the other. It doesn't matter how the individual fares at a task, because the Qunari believe that it is simply not done.

Only the Qunari will claim that they are true meritocrats.

Have you seen the differences between a male and female Kossith? It does not boggle the mind why aa Qunari would find a male to be a superior fighter, given the differences of the sexes. Also, once humans and Elves become more common within the Qunari, perhaps they will reevaluate their stance on women in the army, since female and male humans/Elves have little differences.

Kossith women, who are, pound for pound, probably the most muscular women we've seen in the 'verse so far, if concept art is anything to go by? Sure, there's a fair amount of sexual dimorphism, greater than humans, in kossith women, but if human women have the physical capability for battle, I really don't see how six-foot tall amazon ladies would fair any worse, outside of the fact that they lack training.

Now you are assuming that a lot of male humans and Elves are accepted into the antaam...

[Raging Nug]

Inception quotes followed by a one-sentence response. Beautiful.

I don't think the Qunari assign roles randomly. It depends on if someone shows a proficiency for any task. I'll refer you to Plato's Republic (specifically the myth of the metals), where he illustrates how everyone does what they're best at doing for the good of his fictional city.

[CrimsonZephyr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

I don't think it sounds like such a poor deal if you are unsure of your purpose in life. The real selling point of the Qunari religion, after all, is purpose. The Qun tells you what your purpose in life is, how you can serve that purpose, and surrounds you with a community of people similarly committed to fulfilling their respective purposes.

There's nothing wrong with someone suggesting what your "purpose" should be, what line of work you should be in or what skills/talents serve you best. After all we do have job aptitude tests and all that. The problem is not someone suggesting you what your purpose is; it's that they force you to have a purpose, to stick with a certain job.

It's as if since childhood you were told that your purpose was to work in retail shops. Maybe you think you can contribute more to society by being a researcher in a university? Too bad, it was decided for you to be a retail worker, and can only advance in that field... the best probably being a manager of the retail store.

It is as if you since childhood had this dream of becomming an astronaut, and then someone came along and saw your potential as astronaut, and then amde you an astronaut.

or

You had a dream to become an astronaut, then someone came along and saw you had no potential to become an astronaut, then made you something else..

Tell me how case 2 is any different than our society? And don't give that bullcrap "if you really want to, you can become anything you want to", because that is the simplest of lies told to appease the masses. You CANNOT become anything you want to, and the sooner you realize it, the better off you will be.

Let's turn that around. Let's say you're a woman, who wanted to be a soldier, or a man who wanted to be civil administrator. The Qun wouldn't allow you to do that, under any circumstances, because they have unsubstantiated claims that one gender is instrinsicaly better at one job than the other. It doesn't matter how the individual fares at a task, because the Qunari believe that it is simply not done.

Only the Qunari will claim that they are true meritocrats.

Have you seen the differences between a male and female Kossith? It does not boggle the mind why aa Qunari would find a male to be a superior fighter, given the differences of the sexes. Also, once humans and Elves become more common within the Qunari, perhaps they will reevaluate their stance on women in the army, since female and male humans/Elves have little differences.

Kossith women, who are, pound for pound, probably the most muscular women we've seen in the 'verse so far, if concept art is anything to go by? Sure, there's a fair amount of sexual dimorphism, greater than humans, in kossith women, but if human women have the physical capability for battle, I really don't see how six-foot tall amazon ladies would fair any worse, outside of the fact that they lack training.

Now you are assuming that a lot of male humans and Elves are accepted into the antaam...

Perhaps I should have made my point plainer. The antaam fights most humans, who, for the most part, field both men and women as soldiers. Kossith women look like they'd have the physical strength for combat against these people, being taller, and certainly more muscular than the women, or only slightly leaner than human men, and so using that as a rationale for not having them in the military seems off.

[GodWood]

jamesp81 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
The qun basically offers to not hurt your feelings and/or make you feel valuable. In return, you accept it's commands to committ all manner of criminality and immorality and you do so without question.

What criminality? What immorality?
You seem to have a habit of saying random condemning statements about the qunari without actually ever making genuine criticisms.

I was wondering when you'd show up.
Qunari criminality includes slavery,

Evidence please.
We do know other societies within Thedas practice slavery though. Why is it that those societies with confirmed slavery are better then the one who we do not know has slavery?

brainwashing,

All societies do this and it's not something that can be stopped. YOU are brainwashed

a stated policy of violating previously signed international agreements, torture and mutliation of mages,

Yes, they do some of these things.

execution or exile of political / religious dissidents, and imperialism.

This is something common throughout all of Thedas and quite logical in a medieval society.

So basically so far the only Qunari specific atrocities you can label is 'not honouring contracts' and mutilating mages. (however you are forgetting they only do so to mages who have broken the law)

Hardly a decent excuse to wipe out their entire society.

Also, selective breeding programs. I know they do this among their own kind.

What's wong with this?

I am curious to know if in conquered lands, if established marriages are respected or if they force people to have sex with others to satisfy the demands of the breeding program.

As am I.

[Bayz]

Well...as this side of Par Vollen we also make mages tranquil (which is severing their ties with the fade and therefore a kind of mutilation) and Orlais and Tevinter tend to be quite expansionistic, for what we know from the other nations in Thedas, because they are the only ones who could afford to be. Meaning that the only reason other territories are not Fereldean is because Ferelden needs all their power to keep Orlais at the other side of the mountains so to speak.

The selective breeding program is something I don't really care too much. Mages in Tevinter are probably also undergoing something similar to increase magical bloodlines, but take this with a grain of salt as I don't have evidence to support it.

As a whole the only real reason I don't like them is their refusal to accept singularity which I believe is the whole point of being sentient instead of an animal and their refusal to adopt the rule of the land they disembark in.

[jamesp81]

Qunari are known to enslave people they conquer through the use of qamek. They also do it to anyone inside their lands who decides the qun isn't the life for them.

I've yet to see the Chantry kill anyone in-game for not believing in Andraste or the Maker, but the qunari have a stated policy of killing Tal-Vashoth. Exalted marches from 7 centuries before the time of the game doesn't count. I'm talking about right now. People change over time, and the exalted marches weren't about punishing non-believers so much as pushing hostile armies away.

Mutilating a mage for a minor legal infraction is not in any way just or moral. This should be self-evident.

Thedas is not really a medieval society. It resembles a medieval society in a lot of ways, but like most other fantasy settings, it is strongly influenced by modern cultural ideas. Therefore, what is 'logical', and I use that term loosely, for a medieval society isn't necessarily logical for Thedas.

The government enforced selective breeding program is just eugenics by another name. Such programs have never ended in anything but misery and are ordinarily the tools of monstrous tyrants. It's something that an enlightened and civilized society wouldn't touch. The fact that the qunari would doesn't say anything particularly good about them.

As for Orlais and Tevinter, they certainly have some imperalist tendencies. I wouldn't mind seeing them taken down a notch or two either. Then again, there's a chance these places could change for the better. The qunari will not change for the better as their ideology is too rigid. Therefore, the qunari are the greater threat to be defeated first. I'll happily sack Val Royeaux and Minrathous once that's done.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The reason people are hesitant to touch eugenics again is not because it is a horrible science, but because it is too associated with **** germany, and the atrocities commited there.

Qamek isn't slavery, since there is no person left iwthin the shell seet to work. It is basically a biological machine, used for manual labor. Better an enemy be put to use after his "death", than left to rot. You have to remember the Qunari places no value on the body after the spirit has departed. Since the Qamek has no spirit, but can still function in a manual task, the Qunari have no second thoughts about putting it to use.Wereas we westerners might be alittle more hesitant to such a practice, and consider it quite morbid..

A Saarebas casting unsanctioned magic is not a "minor legal infraction" to the Qunari. To the Qunari, who harbors a healthy distrust of magic, actually finds it a rather severe legal infraction, hence the harsh punishment.

I have also yet to see the Qunari killing any Tal-Vasoth for simply being Tal-Vasoth. All the Tal-Vasoth we have killed in both games, possed a threat to all around them, and hence were no better than highwaymen, and thus deserved death anyway.

[Bayz]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The reason people are hesitant to touch eugenics again is not because it is a horrible science, but because it is too associated with **** germany, and the atrocities commited there.

That and the shameful number of people with allergies to nuts and dairy products here in the UK for instance...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Qamek isn't slavery, since there is no person left iwthin the shell seet to work. It is basically a biological machine, used for manual labor. Better an enemy be put to use after his "death", than left to rot. You have to remember the Qunari places no value on the body after the spirit has departed. Since the Qamek has no spirit, but can still function in a manual task, the Qunari have no second thoughts about putting it to use.Wereas we westerners might be alittle more hesitant to such a practice, and consider it quite morbid..

They might not consider slavery. It doesn't mean it is not, remember the Qunari do not consider Brainwashing as Brainwashing, as I said call it whatever you want, doesn't change the concept.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
A Saarebas casting unsanctioned magic is not a "minor legal infraction" to the Qunari. To the Qunari, who harbors a healthy distrust of magic, actually finds it a rather severe legal infraction, hence the harsh punishment.

A Mage using magic and outside the circle is not a "minor legal infraction" thorough Thedas either. And people should remember that mages more often than not means gateways to demons.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I have also yet to see the Qunari killing any Tal-Vasoth for simply being Tal-Vasoth. All the Tal-Vasoth we have killed in both games, possed a threat to all around them, and hence were no better than highwaymen, and thus deserved death anyway.

But we have not met them with a true Qunari in our party have we?. The ones acting as mercenaries for the Carta in Origins are still referred as Qunari and therefore they are still within the Qun for some reason...We don't know if we finding peaceful Tal Vasoth with a Qunari in our party and dealing with them (like that merchant in Awakening) will trigger a berserk button.

[jamesp81]

The qunari kill you if you don't subscribe to their religion. This is stated in the game. Andrastians don't seem to to go in for that nearly so much. If you can't see that something's wrong with that, then I can't help you.

By the way, I'm going to contest this idea that Saarebas are only mutilated if they commit a crime.  Every single one encountered has been chained and had his mouth stitched shut.  There is no reason to believe this is only done if they do something their Arvaraad doesn't like as it appears to be standard procedure.  The claim that this is reserved as a punishment is BS until I seem some proof.

Modifié par jamesp81, 04 novembre 2011 - 02:22 .

[Bayz]

They certainly do not in Riavin...

The problem is not Saarebas being punished for crimes, the problem is what Qunari would consider crimes in the first place.

Modifié par Bayz, 04 novembre 2011 - 02:24 .

[jamesp81]

Bayz wrote...

They certainly do not in Riavin...

The 'qunari' in Rivain are barely qunari.  They do not even come close to following the qun strictly.  A great many of them seem to still subscribe to their old Rivaini faiths at the same time (referred to as the Natural Order, IIRC).

[maxernst]

Not all of Rivain is ruled by the Qunari, and it's not clear to me whether the references to people following the old Rivaini faiths are in the Qunari or White Chantry parts of Rivain, or both.

[maxernst]

Bayz wrote...

The selective breeding program is something I don't really care too much. Mages in Tevinter are probably also undergoing something similar to increase magical bloodlines, but take this with a grain of salt as I don't have evidence to support it.

I would guess that families with strong magical backgrounds in Tevinter try to marry their children to similar families.  I imagine them as operating a lot like noble families arranging marriages to other families with "good" bloodlines.

Modifié par maxernst, 04 novembre 2011 - 02:47 .

[Bayz]

jamesp81 wrote...
The 'qunari' in Rivain are barely qunari.  They do not even come close to following the qun strictly.  A great many of them seem to still subscribe to their old Rivaini faiths at the same time (referred to as the Natural Order, IIRC).

So because they are not big horned grey borg's they are not Qunari enough for you? We do not know anything about Riavin but Isabella and she is not Qunari anyway. Duncan was raised in Ferelden and he seemed to care quite less about religion than about being a Warden (for the games anyway, hadn't read the books)

maxernst wrote...

Not all of Rivain is ruled by the
Qunari, and it's not clear to me whether the references to people
following the old Rivaini faiths are in the Qunari or White Chantry
parts of Rivain, or both.

I got the impression from the stuff we've been getting from there that they were everywhere. But yeah we do not know for sure yet. Looking at what the Chantry did with the elves of the Dales though I do not see them treating the old belivers quite well anyway, but I have not seeing the Qunari trating non Qun right, in fact they believe they are not people.

[The dead fish]

maxernst wrote...

Not all of Rivain is ruled by the Qunari, and it's not clear to me whether the references to people following the old Rivaini faiths are in the Qunari or White Chantry parts of Rivain, or both.

There are those who are Andrastians, and there are those who are pagan indeed. 

[CrimsonZephyr]

maxernst wrote...

Bayz wrote...

The selective breeding program is something I don't really care too much. Mages in Tevinter are probably also undergoing something similar to increase magical bloodlines, but take this with a grain of salt as I don't have evidence to support it.

I would guess that families with strong magical backgrounds in Tevinter try to marry their children to similar families.  I imagine them as operating a lot like noble families arranging marriages to other families with "good" bloodlines.

I'm guessing there's a lot of inbreeding going on in Tevinter, if they're selecting for magic only.

[esper]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Bayz wrote...

The selective breeding program is something I don't really care too much. Mages in Tevinter are probably also undergoing something similar to increase magical bloodlines, but take this with a grain of salt as I don't have evidence to support it.

I would guess that families with strong magical backgrounds in Tevinter try to marry their children to similar families.  I imagine them as operating a lot like noble families arranging marriages to other families with "good" bloodlines.

I'm guessing there's a lot of inbreeding going on in Tevinter, if they're selecting for magic only.

I think it is the same as with nobles everywhere, with the occiscial wilth youth marring down or eloping.

[Bayz]

esper wrote...

I think it is the same as with nobles everywhere, with the occiscial wilth youth marring down or eloping...

...being used for evil blood magic:devil:

[The dead fish]

We talked at the university today, about the difference between equality and egalitarianism !

I laughed because I thought about Qunari.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 04 novembre 2011 - 05:16 .

[esper]

Bayz wrote...

esper wrote...

I think it is the same as with nobles everywhere, with the occiscial wilth youth marring down or eloping...

...being used for evil blood magic:devil:

I think they use slaves for that. I was thinking more in line with the occiosnall Leandra character appearing and eloping with someone who is not good enough.
But seriosuly, how inbred do you guys think all the nobles in the different countries are. I am willing to bet that is marrying your cousion or second cousin is quite common in Thedas' more powerfull houses.

[Bayz]

Where do you mix Qunari in a talk of Equality and Egalitarism without a NOT in the front?