329 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

The Hawke's that are opposed to aiding the Qunari didn't buy the DLC.

Or didn't know that Tallis was a qunari before buying it...

[lobi]

Also remember Tallis is out of the loop officially. She could have messed up an elabourate plot by the Qunari spy master that would have eventually benefited Seheron. The Duke over-reacted so badly because Hawk made him cranky.

Modifié par lobi, 23 octobre 2011 - 01:20 .

[Lenimph]

General User wrote...
What's irksome to me is that you can't take the scroll away from Tallis at the end and give it to, umm... I don't know... LELIANA!

There are four people on our side who I'd trust with the real "Heart" and one of them is Leliana.  And she was there!  Wasn't Leliana there to investigate Duke Prosper's dealings with a Qunari defector?  I kept waiting for her to make an appearance at the end.  I was disappointed when she didn't.

I thought the same, but then again Cassandra did note that their agent (aka Leliana) didn't have the same kind of access that Hawke had so I guess that just wasn't possible.  Perhaps she didn't want to cause suspicion on the Chantry's behalf and had to leave or something. 

Anyway if Bioware is trying to gain Qunari sympathy with Tallis they did a very poor job convincing me, quite the opposite really.    I'm sure they did however want to invoke some emotions about which side we would choose however...

Modifié par Lenimph, 23 octobre 2011 - 01:32 .

[lobi]

Once again, Tallis admits the Qunari have issues. The Qunari are not the Qun but strive to be of it. This is an important distinction.

Modifié par lobi, 23 octobre 2011 - 01:37 .

[General User]

What exactly do you mean by "the Qunari are not the Qun", particularly as relates to Tallis?

[Kelnuin]

Patrice was probably the Duke's mistress.

Seriously though, I look at it as though the bad guys are not easily definable as having no redeaming features. As Varric says when asked if it was Hawk then Meredith, (paraphrased) "or the idol, or Anders...take your pick." I certainly would not want to be a mage in the Qun, it is even more oppressive than Kirkwall's Circle. My Mage-Hawk helped Tallis because he is a true believer in freedom of choice even though he would not join the Qun. He doesn't like the Uniform for the Qun Mages.

The question I have is why was Sten in DA:O not bothered by Mages? Could it be that they are members of different path than the Qun in Kirkwall?

Modifié par jamming777, 23 octobre 2011 - 01:39 .

[lobi]

Tallis see's the Qun in it's purity and potential. The Qunari society existed before the Ashkarri went on their journey and Coslun wrote his book so before the Qun in a sense. The treatment of mages may be a pre-Qun practise as may be the use of Kameck. They strive to be of the Qun, so obviously they are not there yet. Tallis hopes to see the Qun fullfilled. Qunari society is as fallible as any other regardless of philosphy.

Modifié par lobi, 23 octobre 2011 - 01:47 .

[Terraforming]

Bioware might be trying to flesh out the Qunari more than they did in the first game, but I didn't see much sympathy for them. The only qunari I felt bad for were Ketojan - who shows how horrifying qunari treatment of mages is, and the delegates in the Offered and Lost quest with Ser Varnell - because I don't like seeing anyone being abused and unable to fight back.

If anything, I felt that Bioware really pushed the potential threat of the Qunari as conquerors bringing forced conversion with them.

I think the ending of Mark of the Assassin was just a reflection of unfortunate lack of player choice - I don't think it was supposed to garner any support for the Qunari. I thought that Tallis provided a different view of the Qunari than the Arishok, who was incredibly contentious, but I didn't see it as sympathetic. I liked her point that all members of the Qunari aren't warriors, but that didn't make me sympathetic to the religion because there is still the threat of hostility between the Qun and the non-Qun. I personally thought it was interesting to hear the thoughts of the Qun from someone who saw it differently than Sten or the Arishok.

In a way though, it felt like Tallis'
views of the Qun and Qunari were more romanticized idealizations on her part rather than the actual truth. Don't know if this was the intent of the writing, or if I'm reading too much into it, but that is just how it felt to me. Also, like another poster said, I think the push for Tallis has a lot more to do with Felicia Day than with the Qunari.

Modifié par Terraforming, 23 octobre 2011 - 01:48 .

[Kmead15]

Terraforming wrote...

Bioware might be trying to flesh out the Qunari more than they did in the first game, but I didn't see much sympathy for them. The only qunari I felt bad for were Ketojan - who shows how horrifying qunari treatment of mages is, and the delegates in the Offered and Lost quest with Ser Varnell - because I don't like seeing anyone being abused and unable to fight back.

If anything, I felt that Bioware really pushed the potential threat of the Qunari as conquerors bringing forced conversion with them.

I think the ending of Mark of the Assassin was just a reflection of unfortunate lack of player choice - I don't think it was supposed to garner any support for the Qunari. I thought that Tallis provided a different view of the Qunari than the Arishok, who was incredibly contentious, but I didn't see it as sympathetic. I liked her point that all members of the Qunari aren't warriors, but that didn't make me sympathetic to the religion because there is still the threat of hostility between the Qun and the non-Qun. I personally thought it was interesting to hear the thoughts of the Qun from someone who saw it differently than Sten or the Arishok.

In a way though, it felt like Tallis'
views of the Qun and Qunari were more romanticized idealizations on her part rather than the actual truth. Don't know if this was the intent of the writing, or if I'm reading too much into it, but that is just how it felt to me. Also, like another poster said, I think the push for Tallis has a lot more to do with Felicia Day than with the Qunari.

Totally agree with you. Showing someone that has positive feelings about the Qun or giving out more information about Qunari culture is not the same thing as supporting the Qunari.

[TheRevanchist]

lobi wrote...

Tallis see's the Qun in it's purity and potential. The Qunari society existed before the Ashkarri went on their journey and Coslun wrote his book so before the Qun in a sense. The treatment of mages may be a pre-Qun practise as may be the use of Kameck. They strive to be of the Qun, so obviously they are not there yet. Tallis hopes to see the Qun fullfilled. Qunari society is as fallible as any other regardless of philosphy.

Just thought I would add my two cents here...the race is not called "Qunari"...Qunari means "People of the Qun". The race that makes up the majority of the Qun belief is in fact called Kossith.

Modifié par kylecouch, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:06 .

[lobi]

kylecouch wrote...
Just thought I would add my two cents here...the race is not called "Qunari"...Qunari means "People of the Qun". The race that makes up the majority of the Qun belief is in fact called Kossith.

Thanks. So the Kossith are the horned ones? I could not find the reference and the DA2 wiki is incomplete.
Edit: OK got it it is actually two jumps from Qun in the wiki. There are two entrys for Qunari. The link needs to be in the text with explanation of the distinction. Thanks again.
dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari 
This is makes what I wanted to say clearer.
Tallis see's the Qun in it's purity and potential. The Kossith society existed before the Ashkarri went on their journey and Coslun wrote his book so before the Qun. The treatment of mages is a pre-Qun practise by the Kossith as may be the use of Kameck. They strive to be of the Qun, so obviously they are not there yet. Tallis hopes to see the Qun fullfilled. Kossith society is as fallible as any other and has it's baggage regardless of adopted philosphy .

Modifié par lobi, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:26 .

[TheRevanchist]

No problem...i cant deny I take pleasure in pointing out my ludicriously large amount of game knowledge...be it ME, DA, Elder Scrolls or w/e else

[TheRevanchist]

lobi wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
Just thought I would add my two cents here...the race is not called "Qunari"...Qunari means "People of the Qun". The race that makes up the majority of the Qun belief is in fact called Kossith.

Thanks. So the Kossith are the horned ones? I could not find the reference and the DA2 wiki is incomplete.
Edit: OK got it it is actually two jumps from Qun in the wiki. There are two entrys for Qunari. The link needs to be in the text with explanation of the distinction. Thanks again.
dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari 
This is makes what I wanted to say clearer.
Tallis see's the Qun in it's purity and potential. The Kossith society existed before the Ashkarri went on their journey and Coslun wrote his book so before the Qun. The treatment of mages is a pre-Qun practise by the Kossith as may be the use of Kameck. They strive to be of the Qun, so obviously they are not there yet. Tallis hopes to see the Qun fullfilled. Kossith society is as fallible as any other and has it's baggage regardless of philosphy .

Indeed. However their attempts to force the belief of the Qun upon all other races automaticlly reduces the credibility of their cause to levels that I cannot ever support. Conversley, The Qunari only interact with the world through the Antaam, the body of the Qunari, which is in fact their military. Meaning they DON'T use diplomacy for any reason, and instead "educate" the world through conquest and "re-education" camps. They automaticlly believe the Qun is how it should it for all living things and will force it upon all who do not believe or kill those who disagree. Like Tal-Vasoth, or "souless monster" basiclly. They disagree with the ideas of the Qun, and that is how the Qun see's them. The ideals of the Qun that Tallis supports are imo very much like the ideals of Communism as originally written by Karl Marks. There is nothing wrong with the ideal, but the way it is implemented is not acceptable.

[hoorayforicecream]

I never thought of them as pushing for Qunari sympathy so much as just helping establish that Qunari are people, just like elves, dwarves, mages, templars, nobles and peasants are people. They aren't an army of evil, nor are they simply proud warrior dudes. They're people, with some good, some bad, and mostly just a different way of thinking.

[Xilizhra]

Meh... "different way of thinking" feels much too mild for me, considering what they do. Their warriors pretty much are an army of evil.

[Zanallen]

Interesting thought...What if Sten isn't a kossith? What if he is what a tall, muscular human Qunari?

[Xilizhra]

Zanallen wrote...

Interesting thought...What if Sten isn't a kossith? What if he is what a tall, muscular human Qunari?

We wouldn't get that dialogue about qunari teeth being able to bite through leather/wood/metal if Sten was human.

[lobi]

kylecouch wrote...
Indeed. However their attempts to force the belief of the Qun upon all other races automaticlly reduces the credibility of their cause to levels that I cannot ever support. Conversley, The Qunari only interact with the world through the Antaam, the body of the Qunari, which is in fact their military. Meaning they DON'T use diplomacy for any reason, and instead "educate" the world through conquest and "re-education" camps. They automaticlly believe the Qun is how it should it for all living things and will force it upon all who do not believe or kill those who disagree. Like Tal-Vasoth, or "souless monster" basiclly. They disagree with the ideas of the Qun, and that is how the Qun see's them. The ideals of the Qun that Tallis supports are imo very much like the ideals of Communism as originally written by Karl Marks. There is nothing wrong with the ideal, but the way it is implemented is not acceptable.

Even Socialists have been known to do this. Deus Ex HR examines when Corporations become zealots.

[TheRevanchist]

Zanallen wrote...

Interesting thought...What if Sten isn't a kossith? What if he is what a tall, muscular human Qunari?

Honestly...I think that would have been an easier route to take. Rather then ret-conning Kossith, simpley reveal that Sten is simpley part of another race that has submitted to the Qun.

[TheRevanchist]

lobi wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
Indeed. However their attempts to force the belief of the Qun upon all other races automaticlly reduces the credibility of their cause to levels that I cannot ever support. Conversley, The Qunari only interact with the world through the Antaam, the body of the Qunari, which is in fact their military. Meaning they DON'T use diplomacy for any reason, and instead "educate" the world through conquest and "re-education" camps. They automaticlly believe the Qun is how it should it for all living things and will force it upon all who do not believe or kill those who disagree. Like Tal-Vasoth, or "souless monster" basiclly. They disagree with the ideas of the Qun, and that is how the Qun see's them. The ideals of the Qun that Tallis supports are imo very much like the ideals of Communism as originally written by Karl Marks. There is nothing wrong with the ideal, but the way it is implemented is not acceptable.

Even Socialists have been known to do this. Deus Ex HR examines when Corporations become zealots.

of course, like I said...the ideal is better then the implimentation.

[naledgeborn]

Army of evil... lolwowlol

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

Meh... "different way of thinking" feels much too mild for me, considering what they do. Their warriors pretty much are an army of evil.

Everything is evil to you that you do not agree with. Any army can be called "evil" because of what they do, unless they are mages who kill your mother or loved ones, they are inocent and fluffy.

[Xilizhra]

Mr.House wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Meh... "different way of thinking" feels much too mild for me, considering what they do. Their warriors pretty much are an army of evil.

Everything is evil to you that you do not agree with. Any army can be called "evil" because of what they do, unless they are mages who kill your mother or loved ones, they are inocent and fluffy.

Odd, I don't see Fenris as evil. I don't even really see Meredith as evil.

[Northern Sun]

Tallis' opinion of the Qun reminds me of Wynne's view of the Wardens. Something they read out of children's book that they are unable to reconcile with the real world without deluding themselves.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Arishok - No.

Honestly no, I only see it as a make up for lack of Qunari Lore in Origins, I'm sorry but Sten and Mister Bald Merchant in Awakening didn't tell me enough. The Arishok gave me a better understanding of What Sten did in Origins and overall was a likable Villian for my Hawke to face in (Cailan's voice) GLORIUS (end voice) combat.