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[TheRevanchist]

Reno_Tarshil wrote...

Arishok - No.

Honestly no, I only see it as a make up for lack of Qunari Lore in Origins, I'm sorry but Sten and Mister Bald Merchant in Awakening didn't tell me enough. The Arishok gave me a better understanding of What Sten did in Origins and overall was a likable Villian for my Hawke to face in (Cailan's voice) GLORIUS (end voice) combat.

Indeed...and Cassandra is all like  after hearing about that "GLORIOUS" single combat lol.

[Wulfram]

They're pushing the Qunari as worthy adversaries - we're still supposed to disagree with them, but we're also supposed to respect them.

But it can be frustrating if you find their ideology truly abhorrent - and it's a bit frustrating when the games trying to portray them as honourable while they're acting like a bunch of hypocrites. Too often Bioware stops you from making obvious arguments, or making the options to oppose them suited only to crazy zealots - why is the only argument I can make against Saemus' sympathies for them that they're heretics?

The other issue is that for me their society is only (barely) believable if they are all a bunch of brainwashed fanatics. So trying to convince me they're not causes problems for my suspension of disbelief.

[Satyricon331]

I don't think Bioware is pushing sympathy for them, since it's pretty clear they've put the Qunari in situations where Bioware has to know the Qunari will look bad to most of the audience. What I'd say is that Bioware's writers are enthusiastic about their Qunari creation and enjoy writing them - and probably sympathize with them more than the audience average. The Qunari almost seem to be the writers' pet species, like if they had to pick their favorite one they'd pick the Qunari. Maybe that perception will change as we see the Qunari more, but for now it's like the writers enjoy showering the Qunari with bonuses, like to strength, willpower (resolve/determination), tech level, social stability, social happiness (according to reports)... The closest to a downside we've seen (that I recall, anyway) is that they generate discontents that seem to form roving criminal gangs, but even there human societies generate large amounts of crime, including gangs and pirates, so it's hardly a net disadvantage unless its scale is much larger than it's seemed.

I've read over the thread and I think Wulfram above me gets it right when he says that Bioware wants us to respect them and think them worthy. Although I'll say their society might work where a similar human society would not simply because they're a different species. I think a human society structured as the Qunari society is would break down, but it doesn't follow that it would if the kossith are at the society's center.

[Gervaise]

I don't think they are so much pushing to like to Qunari as pushing to like Tallis since we are told this will not be the last we see of her. If Tallis had been like the majority of Qunari we have met, would people have been so likely to help her? In fact she is not a proper Qunari because she has a personal name. Sten was called Sten because he was a sten - that was his job title. I went against my own rule and actually watched the web series and Tallis is shown at the beginning in Kirkwall bashing something like she's a worker type, then the Kosssith chap comes along and says - you are to be Tallis again. So is Tallis a job title? Or did he mean, you're going to be a spy again so naturally you'll need the spy cover name? In a way it was disappointing she was introduced in a DLC because there was not enough time to explore through conversation what her role really is within the Qunari or how much of the Qunari philosophy she has actually bought into. It was like Qunari lite - all the positive stuff about working together for a common goal, whilst conveniently overlooking the negative. Tallis did a very good job of promoting Tallis' spin on the Qunari but lousy in terms of throwing more light on the Qunari way of life. It contradicted most of what I had previously learnt from the Arishok, Sten and "official" codexes. I think that in future content she is going to have a crisis of faith which the PC is going to have to deal with.

In Origins Sten did bring up various aspects of the Qunari belief system that were in oppositon to the Warden's culture. The best warden to have to bring this out was a female mage. So at various points he questioned why a female was in a fighting role and why I was allowed out unsupervised as a mage. I definitely got the bit about mages being collared and leashed from him, though I was envisaging something like a dog collar I must admit, so the sarabaas in DA2 came as a surprise with the massive collar and electronic cattle prod type leash. May be the developers thought they had done too good a job of demonising the Qun and wanted to introduce a little balance with Tallis but as I say above, I didn't buy it personally and felt that if this was typical of elven converts then clearly they were being sold short by their "teachers" on what signing up to the Qunari actually entails.

Incidentally, I bought MoA because it implied we would be searching for a Qunari artifact (like the Tome) and that given our previous experience with what happens when the wrong person gets hold of such a thing, I thought it would be Hawke's opportunity to prevent bloodshed by finding it before matters got out of hand. It was only after you got involved that it was revealed that Tallis had been lying through her teeth about the whole thing and you were now actually involved in helping a Qunari agent of the Ben Hassrath stop Orlais getting something that would help against them. Mind you since I don't like Orlais either, it was really a lose, lose situation - had I got the scroll I would have kept it and followed my own agenda.

[naledgeborn]

^ Tallis (assassin) is a title like Sten or Ashaad, not a name.

[Herr Uhl]

naledgeborn wrote...

^ Tallis (assassin) is a title like Sten or Ashaad, not a name.

As seen about 3:45 into the first episode of redemption. "You've been made Tallis again."

[BubbleDncr]

I think that Bioware has several plotlines that they're pushing, one of which is the Qunari, that are all going to come to a head at the same time.

Yes, they gave Felicia Day multiple options of characters she could play, and she chose the Qunari,and that's why MoTA and Redemption are about them. But before those even came out, you could tell that everything that happened in DA2 with the Qunari was just a precursor to something bigger to come.

So Felicia Day just gave Bioware the opportunity to see another side of the Qun we haven't seen before. And I'm not sure it promotes sympathy for them - for every person who becomes sympathetic towards the Qunari because of dealing with Tallis, there's a person who dislikes them more.

[KJandrew]

Herr Uhl wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

^ Tallis (assassin) is a title like Sten or Ashaad, not a name.

As seen about 3:45 into the first episode of redemption. "You've been made Tallis again."

Thank you, now i can not unsee those god awful Qunari suits

[Gervaise]

So Tallis is their word for an assassin - that's helpful to know. She has shed her individual identity in becoming part of the Qun. So really we should refer to her as "the Tallis" or "the elven Tallis", since I assume there is more than one of them out there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Tallis means "to solve" in the Qunari language. And we are probably going to keep referring to her as Tallis, just as we keep referring to Sten as... well, Sten...

[PantheraOnca]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Tallis means "to solve" in the Qunari language. And we are probably going to keep referring to her as Tallis, just as we keep referring to Sten as... well, Sten...

I remember reading somewhere how Qunari words frequently have multiple meanings. It wouldn't be suprising for Tallis to mean "to solve," "to assassinate," "to find," as well as "to bake."

Also, the Qunari equivalent of a given name is probably closer to what a social security number is for us (in the US at least) rather than something you address someone as. You don't go around telling people "I am 555-22-9999" when you introduce yourself. It's mostly for book-keeping.

[TheRevanchist]

In the MoTS Review Thread, Gaider clears up all the confusion regarding the name Tallis and the concept of a female member of Qunari society killing people despite Qunari belief that women don't fight.

[Beerfish]

I want another dlc where i can adventure with petrice to help squash the plans of the qunari totally, too bad she died in too many peoples games for that to be a thought.

[Xilizhra]

Honestly, Petrice was a moron who did nothing to help anything.

[The dead fish]

The odd part is that while they do tend to be vaguely threatening, they're never shown actually doing anything much to the city until the end, and in that case, it's shown to be the result of portrayed-as-totally-unjustified Chantry zealots; what's interesting is that Petrice and company are portrayed as far objectively worse than Meredith and the templars, despite many of their mooks just being normal people.

I agree with this. Enough ridiculous.

[The dead fish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, Petrice was a moron who did nothing to help anything.

Petrice wanted a fight between Kirkwall, ( Thedas ) against the Qunari. Her people against them. She succeeded. I don't see the point with " moron."

Modifié par Sylvianus, 23 octobre 2011 - 07:01 .

[Xilizhra]

Sylvianus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, Petrice was a moron who did nothing to help anything.

Petrice wanted a fight between Kirkwall, ( Thedas ) against the Qunari. Her people against them. She succeeded. I don't see the point with " moron."

It was more in what her goal actually was. It was a stupid goal.

[The dead fish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, Petrice was a moron who did nothing to help anything.

Petrice wanted a fight between Kirkwall, ( Thedas ) against the Qunari. Her people against them. She succeeded. I don't see the point with " moron."

It was more in what her goal actually was. It was a stupid goal.

So, you disagree with its fanaticism.

Not necessarily stupid, if you are a visionary and you know Qunari are a threat to your faith, or your people, or your state. It is sometimes better to force its people to wake up, rather than being totally taken by surprise and to be defeated immediately. After Act 2, Thedas, Kirkwall and especially Orlais are more concerned and that's a good thing, given that qunari are preparing an invasion of the continent since a long time now.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 23 octobre 2011 - 07:08 .

[Gervaise]

The whole point is that they do go around introducing themselves by their "social security number". Now I know that in Act 3 everyone keeps referring to Hawke as Champion but then there is only one at any particular moment in time and it is intended to honour the person, not diminish their individuality. Nevertheless, I would certainly introduce myself as Hawke or the Champion of Kirkwall, if official titles seemed more appropriate. It is not that Tallis introduces herself by her job role - a blacksmith might introduce himself as Smith. It is that there isn't anything beyond that to distinguish her from all the other Tallis's. I just wonder how you would find a particular person in Qunari society but perhaps that is the whole point - you are looking for Tallis (someone to solve or to assassinate) and you don't get a particular individual but whoever happens to be available.
If you say, "I want the Tallis I worked with last time", the response would be:
"You wished for Tallis. This has been provided." Or have I misunderstood somewhere along the way?

[Beerfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, Petrice was a moron who did nothing to help anything.

Not at all.  She actually realized while the rest of the morons of the city didn't that the qunari were a major threat to the city and the chantry.   She actually was trying to do something about the situation, something her superior is accused of doing nothing through the conflict.

[TEWR]

Gervaise wrote...

The whole point is that they do go around introducing themselves by their "social security number". Now I know that in Act 3 everyone keeps referring to Hawke as Champion but then there is only one at any particular moment in time and it is intended to honour the person, not diminish their individuality. Nevertheless, I would certainly introduce myself as Hawke or the Champion of Kirkwall, if official titles seemed more appropriate. It is not that Tallis introduces herself by her job role - a blacksmith might introduce himself as Smith. It is that there isn't anything beyond that to distinguish her from all the other Tallis's. I just wonder how you would find a particular person in Qunari society but perhaps that is the whole point - you are looking for Tallis (someone to solve or to assassinate) and you don't get a particular individual but whoever happens to be available.
If you say, "I want the Tallis I worked with last time", the response would be:
"You wished for Tallis. This has been provided." Or have I misunderstood somewhere along the way?

They would differentiate even further. The only reason you address Sten or Tallis as Sten and Tallis respectively is because that's the only one you know.

but in Qunari society, it goes even further since there are multiple people of each role. Like "2nd Infantry Commander Sten" and the like.

[Xilizhra]

Beerfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, Petrice was a moron who did nothing to help anything.

Not at all.  She actually realized while the rest of the morons of the city didn't that the qunari were a major threat to the city and the chantry.   She actually was trying to do something about the situation, something her superior is accused of doing nothing through the conflict.

Well... really, the qunari wouldn't have been a problem if she hadn't been doing things that didn't really hurt them, only pissed them off. Maybe the gaatlok theft plan was a decent one, but most of her other ones were pretty worthless.

[The dead fish]

And besides, she takes considerable risk in doing that, and she knows it. But the interest for her people and her faith are above her personal ambitions.That's why I respect her.

Her priority is to bring awareness of her people, and Chantry too naive and passive, while the Qunari advance their pawns. Whatever the means.

Xilizhra wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, Petrice was a moron who did nothing to help anything.

Not at all.  She actually realized while the rest of the morons of the city didn't that the qunari were a major threat to the city and the chantry.   She actually was trying to do something about the situation, something her superior is accused of doing nothing through the conflict.

Well... really, the qunari wouldn't have been a problem if she hadn't been doing things that didn't really hurt them, only pissed them off. Maybe the gaatlok theft plan was a decent one, but most of her other ones were pretty worthless.

How do you know ?

They settled in the city and do not want to leave, until they found their relic. And in Act 2, 3 years later, tensions rose between them and the city, because everyone is now worried. How long do you think people would have waited ?

Do you think that Qunari would leave without their relics ? Not at all. The Arishok don't care the viscount, despise humans, and is certainly not afraid of them.

It is easy to guess that the situation was untenable even without Petrice.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 23 octobre 2011 - 07:39 .

[KJandrew]

Beerfish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, Petrice was a moron who did nothing to help anything.

Not at all.  She actually realized while the rest of the morons of the city didn't that the qunari were a major threat to the city and the chantry.   She actually was trying to do something about the situation, something her superior is accused of doing nothing through the conflict.

Wait you mean the guys who sat around peacefully for several years until she pushed them beyond breaking point where a threat to the city that she was justified to attack?

[KJandrew]

Gervaise wrote...

The whole point is that they do go around introducing themselves by their "social security number". Now I know that in Act 3 everyone keeps referring to Hawke as Champion but then there is only one at any particular moment in time and it is intended to honour the person, not diminish their individuality. Nevertheless, I would certainly introduce myself as Hawke or the Champion of Kirkwall, if official titles seemed more appropriate. It is not that Tallis introduces herself by her job role - a blacksmith might introduce himself as Smith. It is that there isn't anything beyond that to distinguish her from all the other Tallis's. I just wonder how you would find a particular person in Qunari society but perhaps that is the whole point - you are looking for Tallis (someone to solve or to assassinate) and you don't get a particular individual but whoever happens to be available.

I remember Gaider saying on one of the older threads that the whole social security number thing is more of a way for the Priests to keep hold of their geneology, i'd persume to stop inbreeding or somehting along those lines. He said the way they'd actually tell other Qunari their name would translate roughly to things like "First swordsman of the 4th squad of the something or other battalion of the 890th army."