329 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRevanchist]

^ That mental image is actually hilarious.

[Quething]

DPSSOC wrote...

Am I the only one who pictures the Arishok when no one's around just rocking back and forth in his chair going, "I should be killing things, I should be killing things, I should be killing things,"

Well you're certainly not now.

The Arishok is a soldier, he has no ability to be anything else.  We see normal soldiers, people who haven't had it drilled into them since 12 that killing is the only thing they're good at, having trouble adjusting to peace-time living after a war and the Arishok has probably been fighting off and on with Tevinter for the vast majority of his life.  He was ill suited to the task of sitting and searching, and not killing things.

A very valid point.

Which raises the salient question: what does it say that this is the exact and only type of person the Qunari send out into the non-Qunandar world?

[TheRevanchist]

Quething wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Am I the only one who pictures the Arishok when no one's around just rocking back and forth in his chair going, "I should be killing things, I should be killing things, I should be killing things,"

Well you're certainly not now.

The Arishok is a soldier, he has no ability to be anything else.  We see normal soldiers, people who haven't had it drilled into them since 12 that killing is the only thing they're good at, having trouble adjusting to peace-time living after a war and the Arishok has probably been fighting off and on with Tevinter for the vast majority of his life.  He was ill suited to the task of sitting and searching, and not killing things.

A very valid point.

Which raises the salient question: what does it say that this is the exact and only type of person the Qunari send out into the non-Qunandar world?

Considering that the Antaam (the military) is the ONLY way they interact with the none Qundar world...I would say their ideals of society aren't nearly as perfect as they think

[DRTJR]

I could never support the Qunari ever. their forced global indoctrination, treatment of Mages, and ridged societal structure it is a system that I think would kill any progress in thedas, it is all bad

[Quething]

jamesp81 wrote...

In response to the OP, no I don't think they're doing that. If they are, they're doing a terrible job as almost no one in this community views the Qunari in a mostly positive light. Most people in this community view them as embodying the very worst of what the rest of Thedas has to offer, distilled and amplified. There are just a few too many cases where the Qunari are presented to be mostly bad for me to believe otherwise.

That may be the point. We know they tried to paint templars as more sympathetic and mages as more dangerous in DA2 because they didn't want the "reflexive" mage-siding that happened in DA:O to be repeated (and man, they buggered that one pretty badly, though I guess the numbers on the final decision in DA2 are marginally more balanced than the Broken Circle quest). They haven't openly admitted to doing the same in the DLCs, but Bethany's gung-ho Circle praising and Anders' self-questioning over Corypheus' corpse are certainly very much in the same vein. Return to Ostagar likewise goes out of its way to tear down Cailan and prop up the under-selected Loghain choice. They don't like when we, as a fanbase, look at their supposedly grey-and-grey world and see black-and-white.

If the overwhelming majority of the fanbase thinks Qunari are evil - like, not, "antagonist, wrong, flawed, but with some good points, an interesting antagonist" but actually "no virtues whatsoever, just evil" - it would seem likely to stick in BioWare's craw, and it would be in keeping with pattern for them to attempt to talk them up the Qunari a bit and try to reinstate some of that grey.

Not sure I see that in MotA, though, since Tallis herself is clearly questioning and her arguments seem like they're meant to seem a bit hollow.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's a good point. Although if that were the case, I don't know that all of it would be Bioware's fault. Very often people will see an issue as a black and white situation when it's much more complicated than that, both in fiction and real life.

In Dragon Age 2's case I'm not sure if they did a good job or a terrible job because, while I feel like I can point to a number of areas where I think they could have improved the narrative, it certainly spawned an endless series of arguments with the mages and the templars. Lots of people complained the game was biased against mages, and frankly I thought the story was more biased against templars if anything. Maybe that's a sign of success?

[Big I]

Rojahar wrote...
I would have loved if Tallis actually gave me a reason to help her or sympathize, other than just shrugging me off. Anytime one of the party members, like Anders or Fenris, bring up the atrocities of the Qunari, Tallis just makes a joke and rudely ignores their point. Even when, as Hawke, I ask why I should help her, she's like "Uh... people will be hurt! Innocent people! Farmers and stuff!" Really? Who? How? Isn't this a list of spies? Oh, you not being able to spy on us will hurt farmers? Her response? "I can't tell you, Hawke." Oh... OK. Consider me persuaded. /eyeroll

I would have been OK with there not being a choice to give her a scroll if, oh I dunno, she gave me a reason besides "Shut up and go along with it!"

I liked MotA, but that annoyed me about it; you could never really have a discussion of the shortcomings of the Qun apart from saying "it's tyranny!" Her responses are all "humans are just as bad" (when Anders mentions mages aren't welcome in the Qun, or Hawke says Qunai oppress people). Compare that to Sten, who you could have long conversations with about magic, family and religion.


Also, it's a weakness of the DLC that we don't even know what we're supposed to be doing for most of it. In Origins I didn't have a problem with attacking Flemeth because Morrigan asked me to. In Awakenings I was happy to help Anders try and get his phylactery. If I had known what Tallis was actually trying to do I'd probably have gone along with it, but being vague for the sake of being vague didn't add anything.

[TheRevanchist]

Indeed...the Railroad was strong in this DLC. Was rather disapointing...I never thought Hawke could be even MORE stupid or useless thanks to Plot Logic...but I was proven wrong again I guess.

[KJandrew]

Sylvianus wrote...

And sorry, but a plan against a city that welcomed you and say this is simply a hobby, is very naive, or blindness, as you want. An attack planned has always motivations and reasons behind, always.

Muhammad Ali said that whenever he met someone knew he would play out in his head how he would fight them. Now why would someone who's been raised with the sole purpose of fighting, has been fighting for near his entire life probably not come up with a plan to fight a possible enemy out of habit? 

[Annarl]

I don't know if I would call it sympathy but I do think they are trying to build the lore about the Qun.

As for the DLC, I agree the railroading was very strong in MotA. And I couldn't figure out why Hawke should really care about the gem but in order to play.....Hawke wanted the gem or likes helping people steal gems. LOL. Tallis was okay, I just wish I could respond more strongly to her views on the Qun. I didn't like Hawke's dialogue choices at times. One of my Hawkes (my mage) would like to express her view a little more strongly than the DLC allowed.

Modifié par omearaee, 24 octobre 2011 - 04:30 .

[Beerfish]

Oh, the Arishok was also a drunk. Ever notice how if you walk right up to his chair in the game there are always a bunch of empty bottles laying around? Booze hound.

[DPSSOC]

Quething wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Am I the only one who pictures the Arishok when no one's around just rocking back and forth in his chair going, "I should be killing things, I should be killing things, I should be killing things,"

Well you're certainly not now.

Excellent.

Quething wrote...

The Arishok is a soldier, he has no ability to be anything else.  We see normal soldiers, people who haven't had it drilled into them since 12 that killing is the only thing they're good at, having trouble adjusting to peace-time living after a war and the Arishok has probably been fighting off and on with Tevinter for the vast majority of his life.  He was ill suited to the task of sitting and searching, and not killing things.

A very valid point.

Which raises the salient question: what does it say that this is the exact and only type of person the Qunari send out into the non-Qunandar world?

I don't think they do.  We know they have their spies, we know they have people like Tallis (there are other paths they don't all lead to the same destination) I doubt the Arishok was chosen with the intent he set up camp in Kirkwall, his initial task was probably just to board Isabela's ship and retrieve the Tome (then presumably kill the crew and take the ship).  When he found himself trapped in Kirkwall he was out of his element, unable to adequately deal with his position (a fundamental weakness of the Qun) and he lost his flipping mind.

Now if they do choose to send only people like the Arishok to me it speaks of fear.  They know none of their people except their soldiers have any skill at fighting so they only send their soldiers to deal with people outside the Qun because anyone not of the Qun could pull a knife on them.  Imagine a Kossuth seamstress (and laugh) being attacked by a group of bandits even as poorly organized and equipped as those we meet outside Lothering in DA:O.  They wouldn't stand any real chance of defending themselves they'd be unarmed and untrained.

[PantheraOnca]

DPSSOC wrote...
Imagine a Kossuth seamstress (and laugh) being attacked by a group of bandits even as poorly organized and equipped as those we meet outside Lothering in DA:O.  They wouldn't stand any real chance of defending themselves they'd be unarmed and untrained.

What you don't know is that the Qunari word for "seamstress" also means "flayer of skins" and "destroyer of souls."

[jamesp81]

Quething wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

In response to the OP, no I don't think they're doing that. If they are, they're doing a terrible job as almost no one in this community views the Qunari in a mostly positive light. Most people in this community view them as embodying the very worst of what the rest of Thedas has to offer, distilled and amplified. There are just a few too many cases where the Qunari are presented to be mostly bad for me to believe otherwise.

That may be the point. We know they tried to paint templars as more sympathetic and mages as more dangerous in DA2 because they didn't want the "reflexive" mage-siding that happened in DA:O to be repeated (and man, they buggered that one pretty badly, though I guess the numbers on the final decision in DA2 are marginally more balanced than the Broken Circle quest). They haven't openly admitted to doing the same in the DLCs, but Bethany's gung-ho Circle praising and Anders' self-questioning over Corypheus' corpse are certainly very much in the same vein. Return to Ostagar likewise goes out of its way to tear down Cailan and prop up the under-selected Loghain choice. They don't like when we, as a fanbase, look at their supposedly grey-and-grey world and see black-and-white.

If the overwhelming majority of the fanbase thinks Qunari are evil - like, not, "antagonist, wrong, flawed, but with some good points, an interesting antagonist" but actually "no virtues whatsoever, just evil" - it would seem likely to stick in BioWare's craw, and it would be in keeping with pattern for them to attempt to talk them up the Qunari a bit and try to reinstate some of that grey.

Not sure I see that in MotA, though, since Tallis herself is clearly questioning and her arguments seem like they're meant to seem a bit hollow.

That's part of my point, though.  In the one area where the qunari aren't portrayed as pure monsters, even their "spokesman" got kicked out and was none too sure of herself.

[The dead fish]

KJandrew wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

And sorry, but a plan against a city that welcomed you and say this is simply a hobby, is very naive, or blindness, as you want. An attack planned has always motivations and reasons behind, always.

Muhammad Ali said that whenever he met someone knew he would play out in his head how he would fight them. Now why would someone who's been raised with the sole purpose of fighting, has been fighting for near his entire life probably not come up with a plan to fight a possible enemy out of habit? 

The Qunari must be able to cope with what they perceive as a threat to the Qun, their group or their  " interests. " ( to find the relic, whatever the means )

They are in an area they do not control completely and they have to share with people they do not understand. It's completely unbelievable that they have no motivations or reasons behind their plan of attack secretly devised, prepared as in real life with any nation suspicious about its neighbor. They are totally under surveillance and they know it. How not to prepare anything without a clear thought with all this tension, all of which could be harmful to their own goals and their own safety ?

Yes, we are currently talking about a military entity that is foreign to a sovereign city in which they are determined to stay until they regain their lost relic.

An entity that suspects that its presence is viewed with hostility by the people of Kirkwall ( well actually they know it lol ) and feared by the authorities, more and more tense, months after montths,  year after years. So a possible fight in the future, or an element ( the will to push them out for real peacefully or not for example) that forces them to strike first.

The Arishok has also more and more the temptation to restore order in this chaotic city. That's enought elements, to believe, that the plan against Kirkwall wasn't at all developed because well, it is simply the " usual procedure with anyone. "

 I think it's almost insulting for the Qunari, smarter militarily than humans. They took into account the situation, and they decided to plan an attack in case of future events do not please them and in case also if the qun requires it. The Arishok insinuates it.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 26 octobre 2011 - 12:39 .

[Quething]

DPSSOC wrote...

Now if they do choose to send only people like the Arishok to me it speaks of fear.  They know none of their people except their soldiers have any skill at fighting so they only send their soldiers to deal with people outside the Qun because anyone not of the Qun could pull a knife on them.  Imagine a Kossuth seamstress (and laugh) being attacked by a group of bandits even as poorly organized and equipped as those we meet outside Lothering in DA:O.  They wouldn't stand any real chance of defending themselves they'd be unarmed and untrained.

Well, nothing's stopping them from sending a couple of Stens as the seamstress' bodyguards. (I mean, okay. Obviously something's stopping them, but it's a cultural limitation, not an actual law of physics or anything.)

You do mention something that I didn't get into in my other post, though, which I think is important - sending the Arishok for the Tome (a decision that was clearly made equally by the non-military arm of the Qunari leadership, since "what do we do about the Tome" would be the Ariqun's call) is as good as admitting they planned to kill the Orlesians. For doing them a favor. Much the same way the Arishok says he'd kill the messenger did him the favor of informing him of his envoy's disappearance, were that messenger anyone but Hawke. Agents like Tallis notwithstanding, I think that speaks to a pretty consistent philosophy that you only send killers into Bas lands because the only thing you do with Bas is kill.

Heh. Funny to think Isabela probably saved the Orlesian diplomatic group's lives.

[RosaAquafire]

I have to admit, the fanatical love of the Qunari always puzzles me a bit. People always get all up on the Chantry and how awful they are for being religious zealots who oppress minorities and enslave people. And then they turn around and say the Qunari are basically the coolest thing ever.

There's a giant disconnect there ...

[esper]

I do think that bioware is pushing a pro-qunari agenda, but I think that it is because the qunari society is so rigid that if they werent 'cool' (which I don't think they is) nobody would think anything positive about them, but I admit that the moment tallis revealeed herself as qunari she lost all respect from me so I am obviously biased. I also think that I will never see redemption.
Also I am not sure that the Chantry as a whole is fanatic. Sure there is a mother Petrice or two, but I think that the Chantry has developed to be a political institution that uses religion as the excuse to why they must stay in power, but I think that the higher ups are much more into power for the sake of power than into power because the Maker said we should have it. Soemhow Cassandra gave me that impressission

[whykikyouwhy]

This may echo what has been said before, but I think any perceived "Qunari sympathy" could be chalked up to world-building. We get a Qunari companion in DA:O but he doesn't exactly treat the Warden to *long* conversations about his world view or his role in the Qun. This leaves a kernel of curiosity. In DA2, we have a Qunari compound in Kirkwall, and a major quest that hinges upon relations with the Arishok. So we're getting layers, little by little, of who the Qunari are, what makes them tick, etc. - an effort that continues in both MotA and Redemption.

If anything, I think Bioware may be consciously showing us characters who are not so stringent in their interpretation of the Qun, who are not some carbon-copy of the stoic warrior, in order to give us a broader view of the people aspect - the individuals involved. It's rather easy to take any large group, with its good points and bad, and lump in all of its members under a negative light, such as with mages or the Chantry. Since the Qunari/Kossith look to be playing a significant role in the DA-verse yet to come, I think we're just seeing some pieces of the whole so that we might have a better understanding of things down the line. It's not meant to necessarily sway us either way - it's just meant to give us something other than a black & white picture of things.

[Bigdoser]

I personally hate the chantry and the qunari. I did agree with the Arishok that the city is filled with scumbugs and is filled with corruption I did personally loved the line when the Arishok said "you eat and eat and the complain when there is no more food left"(or something to that effect), cause what he says is true. Personally I wanted the option to leave the dam city thats another reason why I pick the pro mage ending I don't want to be ruler of THAT city plus even If my hawke becomes viscount she/he won't have any power to change anything. Also in MoA i wanted to mention to tallis that qunari cut out the tongues of their mages and chain them up.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 26 octobre 2011 - 04:26 .

[Wereparrot]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

In DA2, we have a Qunari compound in Kirkwall, and a major quest that hinges upon relations with the Arishok. So we're getting layers, little by little, of who the Qunari are, what makes them tick, etc. - an effort that continues in both MotA and Redemption.

I think Bioware are pushing qunari sympathy in that the example above would normaly be a just cause for war, yet we are forced to run around playing the diplomat; and it's very one sided diplomacy at that, being biased towards the qunari. The fact that Kirkwall would likely lose a war with the qunari is largely irrelevant. If this is supposed to be an excuse for giving us information about the qunari, it's a poor one, given the circumstances.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Wereparrot - While the quest is required for act 2, you could always pick the aggressive options for Hawke, or not return to the Arishok with information (to gain his respect, etc). So you're not so much being forced to be a diplomat as you are forced to simply interact. But to me, that doesn't imply any agenda of garnering sympathy.

I think how the Qunari are presented in DA2 is just one way we're going to get information on them. That info is going to come in dribs and drabs, as the story allows or requires. In DA:O, we learned about the Circle of Magi, for example, either by playing a mage or by handling the main quest re the Circle. In DA2, we have a broader understanding (albeit still limited) on how mages are treated, regarded, approached etc in areas outside of Fereldan. So with each game, we get a new piece of the puzzle, as it were.

It's piecemeal, sure, but it's just a chapter in a much larger story. So through DLC, the web series and maybe even DA3, I think we'll find out more about the Qunari. And for all we know, any new details may not be favorable.

[esper]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Wereparrot - While the quest is required for act 2, you could always pick the aggressive options for Hawke, or not return to the Arishok with information (to gain his respect, etc). So you're not so much being forced to be a diplomat as you are forced to simply interact. But to me, that doesn't imply any agenda of garnering sympathy.

I think how the Qunari are presented in DA2 is just one way we're going to get information on them. That info is going to come in dribs and drabs, as the story allows or requires. In DA:O, we learned about the Circle of Magi, for example, either by playing a mage or by handling the main quest re the Circle. In DA2, we have a broader understanding (albeit still limited) on how mages are treated, regarded, approached etc in areas outside of Fereldan. So with each game, we get a new piece of the puzzle, as it were.

It's piecemeal, sure, but it's just a chapter in a much larger story. So through DLC, the web series and maybe even DA3, I think we'll find out more about the Qunari. And for all we know, any new details may not be favorable.

The whole problem is that you are forced to be agrressive to join with Petrice. That for me screams pro-qunari agenda.

[KJandrew]

esper wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Wereparrot - While the quest is required for act 2, you could always pick the aggressive options for Hawke, or not return to the Arishok with information (to gain his respect, etc). So you're not so much being forced to be a diplomat as you are forced to simply interact. But to me, that doesn't imply any agenda of garnering sympathy.

I think how the Qunari are presented in DA2 is just one way we're going to get information on them. That info is going to come in dribs and drabs, as the story allows or requires. In DA:O, we learned about the Circle of Magi, for example, either by playing a mage or by handling the main quest re the Circle. In DA2, we have a broader understanding (albeit still limited) on how mages are treated, regarded, approached etc in areas outside of Fereldan. So with each game, we get a new piece of the puzzle, as it were.

It's piecemeal, sure, but it's just a chapter in a much larger story. So through DLC, the web series and maybe even DA3, I think we'll find out more about the Qunari. And for all we know, any new details may not be favorable.

The whole problem is that you are forced to be agrressive to join with Petrice. That for me screams pro-qunari agenda.

Well i don't really see how diplomatic Hawke would approve of Unarmed delagtes being tied up and tortured to death