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Is Bioware pushing qunari sympathy?


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#151
The dead fish

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@Syvianus. To be honest I am not sure that I aren't confusing you with
somebody else. People in here sometimes have indrecible equal names. In
that case I am sorry.
And we definetly agree on the Petrice matter.


Many people confuse me with Sylvius, but no problem if that's the case or not. As you said, in that case, we definitely agree on the subject:)

This is too important to be left aside. If the next game suffers the same problem, this will bring even more frustration for the players, because war is coming ( mage/ templar for example ) and will force especially people to make difficult choices some times. Whatever the personality, ( diplomatic or agressive ), when it's about to choose a faction, or a political choice as much important, only the player can decide itself.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 29 octobre 2011 - 12:39 .


#152
Jedi Master of Orion

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I don't think it means anything other than Bioware wanted personality specific options. Hawke can only persuade the Dalish Elf from Zathrian's clan to give up her quest for revenge if you are diplomatic. Why couldn't my funny or aggressive Hawke's persuade her otherwise then? They both shared that opinion, especially if Zathrian is alive and the person she is after wasn't even guilty.

#153
kyles3

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RosaAquafire wrote...

I have to admit, the fanatical love of the Qunari always puzzles me a bit. People always get all up on the Chantry and how awful they are for being religious zealots who oppress minorities and enslave people. And then they turn around and say the Qunari are basically the coolest thing ever.

There's a giant disconnect there ...


People think the Qunari are cool because the Qunari are cool. They're big and scary-looking, talk in low Perlman-esque growls, and are Thedas' foremost ass-kickers. The Chantry is essentially an expy for the Roman-Catholic church, which we can all agree is most certainly not cool.

Of course this can all break down once you start thinking about it, but still -- it's hard to argue with the Rule of Cool.

Modifié par kyles3, 29 octobre 2011 - 06:13 .


#154
Carmen_Willow

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OmegaXI wrote...

Sorry can't feel sorry for the Qunari and their "The Qunari's Burden" mindset they have for the rest of Thedas. Besides the way they treat their mages is horrid.


The way they treat everyone in their society is pretty horrid to me.  No wonder there are so many Tal-Vashoth.

#155
kyles3

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Carmen_Willow wrote...

The way they treat everyone in their society is pretty horrid to me. 


Even elves? I think it can be quite cruel to judge a person solely by their performance of given tasks (as the Qunari do), but it's a step up from judging a people by the shape of their ears and sentencing them to a life of squalor in a walled-off slum.

Modifié par kyles3, 30 octobre 2011 - 12:19 .


#156
EmperorSahlertz

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Carmen_Willow wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

Sorry can't feel sorry for the Qunari and their "The Qunari's Burden" mindset they have for the rest of Thedas. Besides the way they treat their mages is horrid.


The way they treat everyone in their society is pretty horrid to me.  No wonder there are so many Tal-Vashoth.

Treating all equally is horrid? :blink:

#157
Heimdall

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@EmperorSahlertz

It would be nice if the Qunari did that, wouldn't it? but they don't, they lock everyone into a predefined role and cut out the tongue of anyone born with magic. Any who do not agree with their philosophy and try to leave are hunted down and killed.

#158
jamesp81

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

Sorry can't feel sorry for the Qunari and their "The Qunari's Burden" mindset they have for the rest of Thedas. Besides the way they treat their mages is horrid.


The way they treat everyone in their society is pretty horrid to me.  No wonder there are so many Tal-Vashoth.

Treating all equally is horrid? :blink:


It is when all are equally treated horridly.

Qunari don't do that anyway.  They clearly treat some better than others.

Modifié par jamesp81, 30 octobre 2011 - 01:22 .


#159
EmperorSahlertz

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Lord Aesir wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz

It would be nice if the Qunari did that, wouldn't it? but they don't, they lock everyone into a predefined role and cut out the tongue of anyone born with magic. Any who do not agree with their philosophy and try to leave are hunted down and killed.

Sort of like how almost all society works? (minus the magic)

And evidently a Qunari's role is not locked, since they can apparently change "career" if you will. Tallis weren't born into her role for instance, she joined the Ben-Hassrath later. I also doubt that the Arishok was born to be Arishok. They also only cut out the tongue of some of the Saarebas, those that cast magic without permission.

#160
Heimdall

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No, not at all. Last I checked even the chantry doesn't kill you for converting to, for example, the Qun. Though they'll do their best to convince you otherwise. Your right, not all mages have their tongues cut out. The rest have their mouths sewn partially shut. Tallis was a convert and her role was chosen for her like all the rest. The Arishok was indeed born to his role. Things like that are part of the reason the selectively breed members of the Qun.

#161
DPSSOC

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Lord Aesir wrote...
No, not at all. Last I checked even the chantry doesn't kill you for converting to, for example, the Qun. Though they'll do their best to convince you otherwise.

 
Saemus would like to have a word with you, only he can't because he was killed for converting to the Qun.

#162
KJandrew

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Lord Aesir wrote...

No, not at all. Last I checked even the chantry doesn't kill you for converting to, for example, the Qun. Though they'll do their best to convince you otherwise. Your right, not all mages have their tongues cut out. The rest have their mouths sewn partially shut. Tallis was a convert and her role was chosen for her like all the rest. The Arishok was indeed born to his role. Things like that are part of the reason the selectively breed members of the Qun.

Saemus and all those Rivani the Chantry masscred in the Exalted March for converting are just getting ignored then?
The Arishok wasn't born to his role, we've been told this by the devs over and over again. He was asigned to be a soldier, he excelled in this role and became Arishok due to his skill and competance. 

#163
Wulfram

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DPSSOC wrote...

Saemus would like to have a word with you, only he can't because he was killed for converting to the Qun.


The Chantry didn't kill him.  Petrice did, against official policy.

#164
EmperorSahlertz

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The Qunari does not kill all Tal-Vasoth either. They for example did not see Salit as a threat when he went rogue, and thus didn't assign any Ben-Hassrath to hunt him.

#165
yfullman

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OmegaXI wrote...

Sorry can't feel sorry for the Qunari and their "The Qunari's Burden" mindset they have for the rest of Thedas. Besides the way they treat their mages is horrid.


It's only a degree above what the Chantry does.  But atleast the Qunari will always only punish individual.  They won't go all Right of Annulment on a collective of mages just because of a few bad apples

#166
kyles3

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Wulfram wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Saemus would like to have a word with you, only he can't because he was killed for converting to the Qun.


The Chantry didn't kill him.  Petrice did, against official policy.


Petrice thought she was doing the Maker's work. Isn't it the Chantry's "official policy" to enact the will of the Maker?

#167
Jedi Master of Orion

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So the entire institution is blamed for the actions of one renegade? That's like blaming all of Ferelden for Calian's death when Loghain went rouge and left him to die or blaming all the city guard for raping those elven viditharis' sister.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 30 octobre 2011 - 04:37 .


#168
DPSSOC

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So the entire institution is blamed for the actions of one renegade? That's like blaming all of Ferelden for Calian's death when Loghain went rouge and left him to die or blaming all the city guard for raping those elven viditharis' sister.


Or blaming the Templar Order for the actions of Kerras, Alrik, or Meredith?

#169
kyles3

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So the entire institution is blamed for the actions of one renegade? That's like blaming all of Ferelden for Calian's death when Loghain went rouge and left him to die or blaming all the city guard for raping those elven viditharis' sister.


I don't think your comparisons are apt. Were the crimes of Loghain and the Kirkwall city guard religiously motivated? Did they think God was on their side?

And what's so bad about being a renegade, anyway? Wasn't Andraste a renegade? Could it not be the case that Sister Petrice is simply the rare believer who actually takes her religion's teachings seriously?

#170
The dead fish

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DPSSOC wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So the entire institution is blamed for the actions of one renegade? That's like blaming all of Ferelden for Calian's death when Loghain went rouge and left him to die or blaming all the city guard for raping those elven viditharis' sister.


Or blaming the Templar Order for the actions of Kerras, Alrik, or Meredith?

Or blaming the circle of mages for the actions of Anders, apostates, blood mages, abominations outside ?

Petrice acts against her order by doing that, and she knows it. She's a renegade who takes advantage of her status to advance other interests which are certainly not those of the chantry, led by Eltina. 

That's why Eltina leaves Petrice being killed by the Qunari.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 30 octobre 2011 - 05:30 .


#171
Vlad_Dracul

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Bioware created Qun as evil ideology, so how they could anyone pushing to tyranny of Thedas? By information in DA Codex, especially from MotA - Yes, there is a peace. Equality. Calm. No thirst. No hunger. But the cost?

BW guys can push us to love Qun as much as George Orwell could made sympathy to dictatorships by "1984". :))

Modifié par Vlad_Dracul, 30 octobre 2011 - 05:27 .


#172
Jedi Master of Orion

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kyles3 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So the entire institution is blamed for the actions of one renegade? That's like blaming all of Ferelden for Calian's death when Loghain went rouge and left him to die or blaming all the city guard for raping those elven viditharis' sister.


I don't think your comparisons are apt. Were the crimes of Loghain and the Kirkwall city guard religiously motivated? Did they think God was on their side?


What difference does that make? Is religion the only reason people do bad things? Is it only bad if people do do terrible things in the name of God? Are terrible things in the name of country or your own selifsh desires ok?

#173
kyles3

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

kyles3 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So the entire institution is blamed for the actions of one renegade? That's like blaming all of Ferelden for Calian's death when Loghain went rouge and left him to die or blaming all the city guard for raping those elven viditharis' sister.


I don't think your comparisons are apt. Were the crimes of Loghain and the Kirkwall city guard religiously motivated? Did they think God was on their side?


What difference does that make? Is religion the only reason people do bad things? Is it only bad if people do do terrible things in the name of God? Are terrible things in the name of country or your own selifsh desires ok?


Religion isn't the only institution that individuals use to justify immoral behavior, but it's the only one that proposes a transcendent moral code above and beyond those of merely human institutions. If religious institutions are permitted to teach such a moral code--and I'm not saying they shouldn't be--then we should expect that from time to time there will be "renegades" who actually believe it. And who on earth can say that they're wrong? 

I'm not against religion, but I am tremendously frightened by it.

Modifié par kyles3, 30 octobre 2011 - 06:52 .


#174
Gervaise

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People will always find a way to justify their actions, be it religion, race, political ideology. The fact is that people do good things because of their religion as well as bad. In fact invariably you will find that the bad actions are often contrary to the spirit of the religion - the Chant of Light says that all people are equal in the Maker's eyes, to harm to someone without cause is wrong, to steal is wrong and to lie is wrong, not matter who that person is. Unfortunately, very few people in positions of power seem to think they have to follow this code, hence the inequality in Thedas society and the reason that some of those who are oppressed by the system think they will be better off under the Qun. However, this is probably because they don't know the full extent of the religion they are adopting. Sten and Fenris give a much more accurate insight into this than Tallis because they are not trying to sway you by their arguments, just stating facts. Sten was genuinely puzzled by the society he encountered with the Warden because he had been brought up from birth under the Qunari code. By contrast my Wardens were equally puzzled/appalled by some of his statements but so long as he offered no threat to them or their mission, were prepared just to let it go. I tend to play elves, so my first three wardens were Dalish elf, female elf mage and City elf. None of them liked the sound of the Qunari even though they were largely hostile towards the Chantry. This was largely because you could operate in general Thedas society without being a devout Andrastrian - mostly as I point out above because society is not run according to the Chant of Light. Whereas to adopt the Qunari faith is to adopt a total lifestyle and this is required by those in charge in Quanri lands - naturally those still living outside of those lands are not bound by the full extent of those beliefs because there is no one to enforce them. Sometimes they also allow a degree of leniency whilst new converts are adapting - as in Rivain where they tolerated the Wise women seers until such time as they had been able to educate the young to reject them.

It is interesting to note that Tallis' scroll contains the names not just of current members of the Qun but according to Tallis those who have left it. Since she cannot possibly know the names of every Qun convert, is it not conceivably possible that many of the names on the scroll were in fact not current Qunari but ex Qunari? In that case, that would most likely make Salit a double agent, the Ben Hasrath wanted to list to fall into enemy hands because they were banking on the Orlesians engaging in mass slaughter, which would aid the Qunari cause by causing greater resentment in the Alienages and have the bonus of eliminating defectors. Not enough is known about Salit and his motivations to be able to say anything for certain but if he was a genuine Tal Vashoth or not, it was the list that that Tallis' superiors were not bothered about recovering, not simply Salit himself. Clearly they were not as bothered about the implications for possible "innocents" as Tallis was.

#175
CrimsonZephyr

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

Sorry can't feel sorry for the Qunari and their "The Qunari's Burden" mindset they have for the rest of Thedas. Besides the way they treat their mages is horrid.


The way they treat everyone in their society is pretty horrid to me.  No wonder there are so many Tal-Vashoth.

Treating all equally is horrid? :blink:


Sure, if you treat equally treat everyone horridly.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 30 octobre 2011 - 07:01 .