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[Jedi Master of Orion]

kyles3 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

kyles3 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So the entire institution is blamed for the actions of one renegade? That's like blaming all of Ferelden for Calian's death when Loghain went rouge and left him to die or blaming all the city guard for raping those elven viditharis' sister.

I don't think your comparisons are apt. Were the crimes of Loghain and the Kirkwall city guard religiously motivated? Did they think God was on their side?

What difference does that make? Is religion the only reason people do bad things? Is it only bad if people do do terrible things in the name of God? Are terrible things in the name of country or your own selifsh desires ok?

Religion isn't the only institution that individuals use to justify immoral behavior, but it's the only one that proposes a transcendent moral code above and beyond those of merely human institutions. If religious institutions are permitted to teach such a moral code--and I'm not saying they shouldn't be--then we should expect that from time to time there will be "renegades" who actually believe it. And who on earth can say that they're wrong? 

I'm not against religion, but I am tremendously frightened by it.

I still fail to see why it makes any practical difference in the end. Loghain can still justify his actions by saying love of Ferelden transcends loyalty to any of it's institutions, including the the Crown. How could anyone tell him he's any more wrong than Petrice? I think broad notions like patriotism or freedom or whatever can be used to justify defying normal authority just as easily as anything.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 30 octobre 2011 - 07:14 .

[kyles3]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

How could anyone tell him he's any more wrong than Petrice?

Because Loghain was proven wrong; the Blight was real and the Orlesian threat was not. How can Petrice be proven wrong? Who's to say her actions were not in line with the Maker's will?

Modifié par kyles3, 30 octobre 2011 - 07:29 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But the Blight being more of a threat than Orlais still doesn't make the principle of abandoning your King to die if you don't agree with his agenda and selling elves into slavery to defend Ferelden wrong.

[kyles3]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

But the Blight being more of a threat than Orlais still doesn't make the principle of abandoning your King to die if you don't agree with his agenda and selling elves into slavery to defend Ferelden wrong.

If he had turned out to be right about an immediate Orlesian threat, then the principle would have become muddied; you would then have to say that his actions were wrong in the sense that they hurt innocent elves and right in the sense that they saved innocent Fereldans.

[Malanek]

Haven't read this entire thread but to answer the OP, to an extent yes. This is supposed to be a complex political situation that can be viewed from different angles. In DA2 I was firmly against the Qunari though. A lot of their actions can be viewed as understandable but their ultimate way of dealing with the situation was completely unnaceptable.

[kwinkatopo]

I wish they'd push them on us just a tad bit more. They're by far the wisest race in the franchise, even when they come off as emotionally bankrupt.

[Heimdall]

KJandrew wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

No, not at all. Last I checked even the chantry doesn't kill you for converting to, for example, the Qun. Though they'll do their best to convince you otherwise. Your right, not all mages have their tongues cut out. The rest have their mouths sewn partially shut. Tallis was a convert and her role was chosen for her like all the rest. The Arishok was indeed born to his role. Things like that are part of the reason the selectively breed members of the Qun.

Saemus and all those Rivani the Chantry masscred in the Exalted March for converting are just getting ignored then?
The Arishok wasn't born to his role, we've been told this by the devs over and over again. He was asigned to be a soldier, he excelled in this role and became Arishok due to his skill and competance. 

Fine.  Though Seamus was the work of rogue element, not sanctioned by the chantry.  I've no idea what happened to the Rivaini, but I imagine they fought alongside the Kossith that had taken over to promote the Qun.  My point is, an individual that leaves the chantry is not going to be hunted down like a dog on principle as a Tal Vashoth would.

Another note on Qunari conversion, how can anyone support a group that finds it justifiable to send individuals that will not convert to "reeducation" concentration camps?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 30 octobre 2011 - 11:01 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Tal-Vasoth aren't neccesarily hunted down either. Some of them are, especially the ones who chooses to remain in Quanri territory and prey on the Qunari civilians. That is the main reason for the Qunari to hunt the Tal-Vasoth, because the Tal-Vasoth are what parallels with brigands and highwaymen in the rest of Thedas.

If any man chooses to not be a part of society (and I mean ANY society, even ours), but chooses to keep living in said society, he will be FORCED to be a part of it, or forced out of the society's territory. And it is like this, even in our world's societies. It is simply how they work.

[kyles3]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Another note on Qunari conversion, how can anyone support a group that finds it justifiable to send individuals that will not convert to "reeducation" concentration camps?

At least it's not Aeonar. 

[KJandrew]

Lord Aesir wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

No, not at all. Last I checked even the chantry doesn't kill you for converting to, for example, the Qun. Though they'll do their best to convince you otherwise. Your right, not all mages have their tongues cut out. The rest have their mouths sewn partially shut. Tallis was a convert and her role was chosen for her like all the rest. The Arishok was indeed born to his role. Things like that are part of the reason the selectively breed members of the Qun.

Saemus and all those Rivani the Chantry masscred in the Exalted March for converting are just getting ignored then?
The Arishok wasn't born to his role, we've been told this by the devs over and over again. He was asigned to be a soldier, he excelled in this role and became Arishok due to his skill and competance. 

Fine.  Though Seamus was the work of rogue element, not sanctioned by the chantry.  I've no idea what happened to the Rivaini, but I imagine they fought alongside the Kossith that had taken over to promote the Qun.  My point is, an individual that leaves the chantry is not going to be hunted down like a dog on principle as a Tal Vashoth would.

The Codex entree from Geneviti says that the Rivani were killed simply becasue the Qun was too far entrenched in their minds after generations and that they refused to convert to the Chantry. Apparently so many people were killed at a place called Marnus Pell that the veil is not permenantly sundered.
Salit went rogue yet he wasn't hunted down. Also was it not said that most  Tal-Vashoth are from the Antaam? If so then they would be the equivelent of deserters and are hunted down the same way those who flee from the King's Army are.

[Heimdall]

KJandrew wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

No, not at all. Last I checked even the chantry doesn't kill you for converting to, for example, the Qun. Though they'll do their best to convince you otherwise. Your right, not all mages have their tongues cut out. The rest have their mouths sewn partially shut. Tallis was a convert and her role was chosen for her like all the rest. The Arishok was indeed born to his role. Things like that are part of the reason the selectively breed members of the Qun.

Saemus and all those Rivani the Chantry masscred in the Exalted March for converting are just getting ignored then?
The Arishok wasn't born to his role, we've been told this by the devs over and over again. He was asigned to be a soldier, he excelled in this role and became Arishok due to his skill and competance. 

Fine.  Though Seamus was the work of rogue element, not sanctioned by the chantry.  I've no idea what happened to the Rivaini, but I imagine they fought alongside the Kossith that had taken over to promote the Qun.  My point is, an individual that leaves the chantry is not going to be hunted down like a dog on principle as a Tal Vashoth would.

The Codex entree from Geneviti says that the Rivani were killed simply becasue the Qun was too far entrenched in their minds after generations and that they refused to convert to the Chantry. Apparently so many people were killed at a place called Marnus Pell that the veil is not permenantly sundered.
Salit went rogue yet he wasn't hunted down. Also was it not said that most  Tal-Vashoth are from the Antaam? If so then they would be the equivelent of deserters and are hunted down the same way those who flee from the King's Army are.

All the Tal Vashoth we encounter are from the Antaam, I don't doubt.  However, a Tal Vashoth from any other discipline wouldn't make it to Thedas anyway.  Regardless, Tal Vashoth are all marked for death, the crime of Tal Vashoth is not deserting the Antaam, but leaving the Qun.  The Chantry, for all the flaws it does possess, does not kill a member for forsaking his vows (Sebastian), while the Qunari do so on a routine basis.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Again, they do so because the Tal-Vasoth prey on the Qunari. If a Tal-Vasoth actually gets out of Par Vollen or Seheron, and the Qunari doesn't deem him a threat, they aren't going to hunt him down.

[TEWR]

Lord Aesir wrote...

All the Tal Vashoth we encounter are from the Antaam, I don't doubt.  However, a Tal Vashoth from any other discipline wouldn't make it to Thedas anyway.  Regardless, Tal Vashoth are all marked for death, the crime of Tal Vashoth is not deserting the Antaam, but leaving the Qun.  The Chantry, for all the flaws it does possess, does not kill a member for forsaking his vows (Sebastian), while the Qunari do so on a routine basis.

Armaas the merchant wasn't among the Antaam. Fact about the Qunari and the Tal-Vashoth: when they go rogue, they tend to cling to the honor they held under the Qun. Only one known Tal-Vashoth actually became a full-blown rogue. That was Maraas.

Huh... Armaas can rearrange itself to Maraas.

Anyway, the Qunari didn't hunt down Salit, as he wasn't deemed a threat. Tallis did, but it was a personal mission of hers. She went off on an unsanctioned Qunari mission to hunt down her former mentor. One would think the Qunari as a whole would deem the names of their spies as being something like the Gaatlok, in that it should be defended to the death.

The only logical conclusion is that the Qunari didn't know Salit left with the names and felt he had just defected for reasons that weren't threatening to the Qunari. So, Tallis must've had contacts throughout Thedas -- and the game supports this since she knows Hawke is on Prosper's list and that he isn't a friend of Prosper -- and must've found out that he was planning something more.

Now you may ask why she would hunt down someone who wasn't deemed a threat if she didn't know about the scrolls when she went off on the mission. Well, the answer is this: Tallis was taught by Salit, and for her mentor to go rogue must've been a tough hit for Tallis. For the person who told her everything about the Qun and how it was right and taught her how to use her skills to just go rogue? It's almost like it was all a lie.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Tallis said the Ariqun said the people on the list knew the risks of living among humans, so I have to suspect they knew about the list. They just feel it was worthwhile trying to get it back or the cost of perusing Salit for it at this point was not worth it. I would suspect if he spent his time hanging out in Par Vollen while he was a Tal'Vashoth they probably would be elliminated him or recaptured him.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 31 octobre 2011 - 03:10 .

[Raging Nug]

I think anyone's level of sympathy regarding the Qunari is subjective to their own prejudices. I liked Plato's Republic, so I found the idea of Qunari society at least acceptable. They're easy to understand once you figure out their role, and you always know where they stand.

With regards to Tallis, she's a bit of a deviation from the traditional Qunari idea, but that's because of the huge amount of freedom associated with her role. She's meant to solve problems, and she does it in more creative ways than others.

[zacktly]

Raging Nug wrote...

I think anyone's level of sympathy regarding the Qunari is subjective to their own prejudices. I liked Plato's Republic, so I found the idea of Qunari society at least acceptable. They're easy to understand once you figure out their role, and you always know where they stand.

With regards to Tallis, she's a bit of a deviation from the traditional Qunari idea, but that's because of the huge amount of freedom associated with her role. She's meant to solve problems, and she does it in more creative ways than others.

And what if the role is Saarebas, and you are a chained mage with your mouth sewn shut? Maybe this is indeed my own prejudices coming to light, but I find that inhumane.

Tallis never mentions the Saarebas in MotA, but I would have been interested in Felicia Day's chirpy interpretation of that Qunari custom. Even as a mage character, I wasn't offered an opportunity to bring it up.

[Bayz]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not normally one to start conspiracy theories about Bioware's agendas, but I have to say that the trends involving qunari have been somewhat odd.

In Origins, we get a qunari party member, and all the other traces of qunari we encounter are evil Tal-Vashoth. All right, fine. We needed to get some look at their culture firsthand, and it's unlikely that Sten would attack other qunari.

Then, in DA2, we see a bunch more qunari in Kirkwall, who spend all of their time lurking in the compound while covertly searching for the Tome of Koslun. The odd part is that while they do tend to be vaguely threatening, they're never shown actually doing anything much to the city until the end, and in that case, it's shown to be the result of portrayed-as-totally-unjustified Chantry zealots; what's interesting is that Petrice and company are portrayed as far objectively worse than Meredith and the templars, despite many of their mooks just being normal people. Admittedly, I'm sure many people who've seen pictures of mobs doing nasty things quite enjoyed getting the opportunity to slaughter a couple of them, but it still seemed a bit lopsided, since the only reason ever given for not wanting the qunari in Kirkwall was religious fanaticism, and no one was ever afraid of calling it such. Oh, and there was that one elf who hated the fact that the qunari were culturally imperializing the Alienage, but she was insane and tried to attack you, so let's just forget about her, obviously.

And Mark of the Assassin kicks it up a further notch by basically binding you into aiding a qunari thought police agent steal back vital intelligence and letting her go with it. Obviously, this has already been discussed, but another peculiar thing about Tallis is that she's now gotten her own web series; why? Is Bioware so confident that so many people will fall behind the qunari line? Because quite frankly, I have no desire to watch a qunari assassin try to kill a rogue mage; it's kind of like if Ser Karras got his own series, except maybe without the rape. I'm just unsure why Bioware is putting so much into trying to make us sympathize with these people, more than they've done for any other faction.

Dunno if it is so they definatively failed to achieve that on me. What I saw the Qunari in was a very arrogant people who wanted to shove their ways and their culture in a land that doesn't belong to them, they also seem imperialistic and expansionist which goes against anything that can make me feel sympathy for.

I never go through the duel thingy in DA2, they are in Kirkwall so they fight as the people of Kirkwall should under Kirkwalls rules and I loved to make the Empire of Law falling over their horned heads in the second chapter.

[Gervaise]

If Isabella hasn't returned with the Tome, I like doing the dual thing because it is my side who suggested it. The first time I was a female mage and to me, all the other Qunari having to see me defeat the Arishok and then return home with that knowledge, minus the book, was a huge blow to their moral and their propaganda. Even though I hate the Tevinter too, I quite liked the idea that my Hawke's reputation had even spread that far and they were a big hero. It was also a very effective gesture to the Chantry - mage distraction followed by mage single combat takes down threat to the City and then doesn't immediately grab power for themselves.

However, if Isabella does return with the Tome, then it is rather annoying that your choices are determined by the Arishok - once he refused to accept it gracefully and leave, without Isabella, then I would much rather have defeated the lot of them and kept their book.

[Bayz]

Yeah because they are going to say it was your single female mage who did it...

They will say that it was the Hero of Kirkwall who is a 25 feet metal robot with eyes glowing red of hate and exhaling fire from the mouth and...

Or just say nothing as they culturally could not return without their objective being completed and you know, keep their lives so...

[Gervaise]

True - those soldiers probably just killed themselves or turned Tal Vashoth, since they knew they couldn't return home without the Tome, which would still affect morale back home since the head of their army failed in his mission. Should at least have set back the possbility of invasion a few more years. And it never does any harm to remind the Chantry just why the previous invasion was repelled - the power of the mages.

[Bayz]

Gervaise wrote...

True - those soldiers probably just killed themselves or turned Tal Vashoth, since they knew they couldn't return home without the Tome, which would still affect morale back home since the head of their army failed in his mission. Should at least have set back the possbility of invasion a few more years. And it never does any harm to remind the Chantry just why the previous invasion was repelled - the power of the mages.

The first part I don't agree. The Qun could just use it to fuel hatred against the people of Kirkwall. They do control the 100% of information that goes to the population anyway. The part of setting back the invasion though I have to concede, it will definatively do delay any further attempt at least a bit.

For the third bit, keep in mind that the only thing that apparently separates the Qunari from the rest of Thedas is Tevinter, and the Chantry doesn't seem to give a damn **** about that, in fact sending Exalted Marches against them. Not that the Tevinter guys we have met so far actually inspire sympathy, mind you...

Modifié par Bayz, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:11 .

[Gervaise]

The Qunari was the reason they called off the last Exalted March against Tevinter - the enemy of my enemy and all that. There was definitely a codex concerning the battle for the rest of Thedas which said it was the mages from the Circles which tipped the balance in favour of the non-Qunari forces. Then the Qunari appear to have learnt from this because when they did their previous assault on Kirkwall, it was the power of the Sarabaas that gave them the edge. This is why neither side would ever want to completely eradicate their mages because it might give an advantage to the other but both prefer to have them nicely under control.

[Bayz]

Well more than "the enemy of my enemy", I think is more a "better the devil you know". And Tevinter is technically Andrastian(-ish).

That said it was the Fourth Blight AFAIK not the Qunari what stopped the Exalted March against the Imperial Chantry.

I mean the march ended in 5:10 Exalted and the Qunari invaded Par Vollen in 6:30 Steel so...

Modifié par Bayz, 02 novembre 2011 - 10:30 .

[Raging Nug]

zacktly wrote...
And what if the role is Saarebas, and you are a chained mage with your mouth sewn shut? Maybe this is indeed my own prejudices coming to light, but I find that inhumane.

It's because magic is a variable. In a clear-cut society that wants to guarantee that everything works the way it should, I think that their rejection of magic is completely understandable.

Now, I like the mages. I side with them every time. But I understand pretty clearly why the Qunari behave the way they do. Tallis might have a little less distrust of magic, but would still agree that it's a danger. If you're following Day's webseries, you'll know that we'll more than likely get to see how she treats Saarebas.

[zacktly]

Raging Nug wrote...

It's because magic is a variable. In a clear-cut society that wants to guarantee that everything works the way it should, I think that their rejection of magic is completely understandable.

Now, I like the mages. I side with them every time. But I understand pretty clearly why the Qunari behave the way they do. Tallis might have a little less distrust of magic, but would still agree that it's a danger. If you're following Day's webseries, you'll know that we'll more than likely get to see how she treats Saarebas.

The Qunari don't reject magic totally. Saarebas aren't killed outright or made Tranquil, and they are even used in battle. Instead they're tortured pretty much constantly. Tallis can't seriously expect a mage Hawke to submit to a religion that would chain him, mask him, sew his mouth closed, and have him submit to agonizing pain from those weird mage prods.

I haven't looked at the webseries. I'll check it out.