329 réponses à ce sujet

[mousafiriain]

I wonder if people would be so instinctively hostile to the qun if it wasn't for the role it assigns mages. Lots of players are a mage in game so maybe they feel its all fine and normal, but i'm absolutely sure that if mages with anything like the power they have in DA existed in reality those same ppl would be demanding harsh restrictions!

And anyway what kind of freedom does the average man in the medieval dark age of Thedas have? Feudal societies assign you a role just as strictly as the qun, except at least the Qunari will educate all children the same, test and discover their abilities and talents, then assign them a role based on that. Much like our system of high-school and university perhaps. In the rest of thedas its decided by birth and wealth and if you're really unlucky you're "free" to take the role of beggar, prostitute, thief or mercenary. Where do you think has a higher standard of living and more developed science and culture?

The Qun is one of the best ideas the developers ever had. Usually the sociology and culture of high-fantasy LOTR style universes is never held up to critical analysis. The way the DA universe subverts and introduces nuance to standard fantasy cliches is what makes it stand out IMO.

It's got us all thinking anyway!

[CrimsonZephyr]

mousafiriain wrote...

I wonder if people would be so instinctively hostile to the qun if it wasn't for the role it assigns mages. Lots of players are a mage in game so maybe they feel its all fine and normal, but i'm absolutely sure that if mages with anything like the power they have in DA existed in reality those same ppl would be demanding harsh restrictions!

And anyway what kind of freedom does the average man in the medieval dark age of Thedas have? Feudal societies assign you a role just as strictly as the qun, except at least the Qunari will educate all children the same, test and discover their abilities and talents, then assign them a role based on that. Much like our system of high-school and university perhaps. In the rest of thedas its decided by birth and wealth and if you're really unlucky you're "free" to take the role of beggar, prostitute, thief or mercenary. Where do you think has a higher standard of living and more developed science and culture?

The Qun is one of the best ideas the developers ever had. Usually the sociology and culture of high-fantasy LOTR style universes is never held up to critical analysis. The way the DA universe subverts and introduces nuance to standard fantasy cliches is what makes it stand out IMO.

It's got us all thinking anyway!

Except that Qunari society isn't nearly as mobile as you portray it. Qunari are entirely more rigid than any other culture in Thedas, to the point that different members of their own society don't even have a passable knowledge of how others with different roles live their lives. A soldier knows only to be a soldier, a craftsman his craft, a diplomat diplomacy, a priest her scripture, etc. The Arishok even admits he would never be able to explain any of the rest of Qunari society to Hawke because he himself has no idea what they do, or why they do it. Also, the Qunari place much more emphasis on intrinsic talent than developed talent, to the point that they have rigid, gender-defined roles that are rarely, if ever deviated from. Compare this to Andrastian Thedas, where the majority of the countries have equal status for men and women, as well as greater personal freedom. Honestly, a philosophy that decrees that any dissent be silenced through brainwashing and hard labor is not a model for progressivism.

It's the Qunari, oddly enough, who come across as primitive and narrow-minded, not the rest of Thedas.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 03 novembre 2011 - 03:08 .

[Malanek]

mousafiriain wrote...
I wonder if people would be so instinctively hostile to the qun if it wasn't for the role it assigns mages.

I'm not sure about your use of the word "instinctively" but my own issue with the Qunari has little to do with mages but rather their close mindedness and inability to believe they can be wrong. They are not capable of seeing the other side of any issue. In DA2 this led to war in which they were 99% responsible for because they occupied space in a foreign city, and despite being unwelcome and aware they were causing trouble, they would not leave. They are an interesting concept and make for good writing, but in reality I could never stand a person who behaves like a Qunari. Tunnel-vision is not an attractive trait.

One of the great things about Sten in origins, was that he, eventually, started to open up to a different line of thought.

Modifié par Malanek999, 03 novembre 2011 - 03:28 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

Malanek999 wrote...

One of the great things about Sten in origins, was that he, eventually, started to open up to a different line of thought.

One of the most enjoyable sidequests in Origins was "Try to Break Sten's Brain." 

[upsettingshorts]

I think they're pushing Qunari legitimacy. Whether or not they are sympathetic are up to you. But they certainly aren't token weirdos at this point, are they?

[GodWood]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Except that Qunari society isn't nearly as mobile as you portray it. Qunari are entirely more rigid than any other culture in Thedas, to the point that different members of their own society don't even have a passable knowledge of how others with different roles live their lives. A soldier knows only to be a soldier, a craftsman his craft, a diplomat diplomacy, a priest her scripture, etc.

How is this a bad thing?
Members of the qun only need to know how to fill their role. If everyone does this then they'll be content with their place and society will function perfectly.

Your face need not know how to be a foot.

[CrimsonZephyr]

GodWood wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Except that Qunari society isn't nearly as mobile as you portray it. Qunari are entirely more rigid than any other culture in Thedas, to the point that different members of their own society don't even have a passable knowledge of how others with different roles live their lives. A soldier knows only to be a soldier, a craftsman his craft, a diplomat diplomacy, a priest her scripture, etc.

How is this a bad thing?
Members of the qun only need to know how to fill their role. If everyone does this then they'll be content with their place and society will function perfectly.

Your face need not know how to be a foot.

Take the situation in Kirkwall as one example. The moment the Arishok is put into a situation where the solution is not "kill everything!" his entire MO cracks. His overbearing arrogance rubs his hosts the wrong way, he has little use for diplomacy, and he rarely tells people why he is there, nor does he make any attempt to explain the Qunari or the Qun to the people of Kirkwall, thereby making them seem like aspiring conquerors.

There is no adaptibility. Your face need not know how to be a foot, but cut off the foot from the body, and it is useless.

[Sharn01]

mousafiriain wrote...

I wonder if people would be so instinctively hostile to the qun if it wasn't for the role it assigns mages. Lots of players are a mage in game so maybe they feel its all fine and normal, but i'm absolutely sure that if mages with anything like the power they have in DA existed in reality those same ppl would be demanding harsh restrictions!

And anyway what kind of freedom does the average man in the medieval dark age of Thedas have? Feudal societies assign you a role just as strictly as the qun, except at least the Qunari will educate all children the same, test and discover their abilities and talents, then assign them a role based on that. Much like our system of high-school and university perhaps. In the rest of thedas its decided by birth and wealth and if you're really unlucky you're "free" to take the role of beggar, prostitute, thief or mercenary. Where do you think has a higher standard of living and more developed science and culture?

The Qun is one of the best ideas the developers ever had. Usually the sociology and culture of high-fantasy LOTR style universes is never held up to critical analysis. The way the DA universe subverts and introduces nuance to standard fantasy cliches is what makes it stand out IMO.

It's got us all thinking anyway!

Dragon age is a fantasy setting, like most games of the genre, I would be a much happier person if people would stop describing it as medieval or dark age because it isnt, its a fantasy setting. 

There are some siginifigant differences between a fantasy setting and a medieval and dark age setting.  The people are cleaner, they are better educated, races and sexes share more rights and are usually treated closer to equal if not equal, and they usually have freedoms that people in medieval and dark age settings. 

In Thedas there is no caste system, people are not stuck in the roles they are born to, if a peasent farmer wishes to be a soldier he may try to do so, if he wishes to be a merchant he may try to do that as well.  The only thing that truly separates people is noble titles, which are not indicative of wealth or success, and a non noble who proves him or herself may be awarded a noble title, it happened twice during the coarse of origins alone, first with Loghain and again with the warden, or the person appointed by the warden. 

[Urzon]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Take the situation in Kirkwall as one example. The moment the Arishok is put into a situation where the solution is not "kill everything!" his entire MO cracks. His overbearing arrogance rubs his hosts the wrong way, he has little use for diplomacy, and he rarely tells people why he is there, nor does he make any attempt to explain the Qunari or the Qun to the people of Kirkwall, thereby making them seem like aspiring conquerors.

There is no adaptibility. Your face need not know how to be a foot, but cut off the foot from the body, and it is useless.

Other than take the few elvaan converts, the Qunari didn't do anything to anger the citizens of Kirkwall other than being there. The Qunari kept to themselves the whole time. The only time they acted out against Kirkwall was when Seamus got murdered, which lead to the invasion.

Yes Arishok wasn't taught how to handle diplomancy, much less international diplomancy, but he was solving the problem to the best of his ability. He didn't do anything to anger the viscount, he was constantly sending out warriors to search for the tome, and he was handling all the Qunari related problems. He even had warriors there to get the tome when Hawke went to get it with Isabela. If it wasn't for Petrice killing Seamus, and Isabela running off with the Tome, he was that close to leaving Kirkwall for good.

Did you really expect him to try and start activing converting, or even just trying to explain the Qun, to the population? That would make them look even more like aspiring conquerors. They got enough greif from Petrice's mob for the few elvaan converts that joined because it looked alot better than the alienage, just try and imagine what would happen if they were taking an active role in explaining or converting people...

Clusterf$@# comes to mind. The Arishok did the only smart thing and trying to lay low in the habor, even though that didn't work out in the end as we all know.

Modifié par Urzon, 03 novembre 2011 - 07:39 .

[jamesp81]

mousafiriain wrote...

I wonder if people would be so instinctively hostile to the qun if it wasn't for the role it assigns mages. Lots of players are a mage in game so maybe they feel its all fine and normal, but i'm absolutely sure that if mages with anything like the power they have in DA existed in reality those same ppl would be demanding harsh restrictions!

And anyway what kind of freedom does the average man in the medieval dark age of Thedas have? Feudal societies assign you a role just as strictly as the qun, except at least the Qunari will educate all children the same, test and discover their abilities and talents, then assign them a role based on that. Much like our system of high-school and university perhaps. In the rest of thedas its decided by birth and wealth and if you're really unlucky you're "free" to take the role of beggar, prostitute, thief or mercenary. Where do you think has a higher standard of living and more developed science and culture?

The Qun is one of the best ideas the developers ever had. Usually the sociology and culture of high-fantasy LOTR style universes is never held up to critical analysis. The way the DA universe subverts and introduces nuance to standard fantasy cliches is what makes it stand out IMO.

It's got us all thinking anyway!

The mage thing certainly speaks against the qun pretty loudly, but no, I would still oppose it even not for that.  It really does take everything that's bad about Thedas and distills it to its purest form, then tries to pass it all off as acceptable since everyone is "treated well" or their feelings aren't hurt by being labeled valuable.

The qun basically offers to not hurt your feelings and/or make you feel valuable.  In return, you accept it's commands to committ all manner of criminality and immorality and you do so without question. Or die.  Now, that sounds like a poor deal when  I say it this way, and thats because it really IS a poor deal.  One should not underestimate the insecurity and pride of your average person and just how much that can be leveraged by an unscrupulous person with something to sell.  The qun appeals to these base desires to get followers to join willingly, despite the qun's other crimes being out in the open for all to see.  This sort of thing has actually happened in human history, and the results are usually terrifying.

As for me, I'd still oppose them mage issues or not.  They have gone to some length to dress up what they do in nice clothes but, at the end of the day, they are a bunch of authoritarian, imperialist tyrants that are quite a bit worse than the rulers of Thedas, even Orlais.  For all their claims of moral superiority, they actually have none.  The rulers of Thedas have a chance of changing their ways to something better.  The qun is inflexible and will never change.  You can only hold it back with force of arms and, perhaps some day, destroy it altogether.

Modifié par jamesp81, 03 novembre 2011 - 08:52 .

[jamesp81]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

mousafiriain wrote...

I wonder if people would be so instinctively hostile to the qun if it wasn't for the role it assigns mages. Lots of players are a mage in game so maybe they feel its all fine and normal, but i'm absolutely sure that if mages with anything like the power they have in DA existed in reality those same ppl would be demanding harsh restrictions!

And anyway what kind of freedom does the average man in the medieval dark age of Thedas have? Feudal societies assign you a role just as strictly as the qun, except at least the Qunari will educate all children the same, test and discover their abilities and talents, then assign them a role based on that. Much like our system of high-school and university perhaps. In the rest of thedas its decided by birth and wealth and if you're really unlucky you're "free" to take the role of beggar, prostitute, thief or mercenary. Where do you think has a higher standard of living and more developed science and culture?

The Qun is one of the best ideas the developers ever had. Usually the sociology and culture of high-fantasy LOTR style universes is never held up to critical analysis. The way the DA universe subverts and introduces nuance to standard fantasy cliches is what makes it stand out IMO.

It's got us all thinking anyway!

Except that Qunari society isn't nearly as mobile as you portray it. Qunari are entirely more rigid than any other culture in Thedas, to the point that different members of their own society don't even have a passable knowledge of how others with different roles live their lives. A soldier knows only to be a soldier, a craftsman his craft, a diplomat diplomacy, a priest her scripture, etc. The Arishok even admits he would never be able to explain any of the rest of Qunari society to Hawke because he himself has no idea what they do, or why they do it. Also, the Qunari place much more emphasis on intrinsic talent than developed talent, to the point that they have rigid, gender-defined roles that are rarely, if ever deviated from. Compare this to Andrastian Thedas, where the majority of the countries have equal status for men and women, as well as greater personal freedom. Honestly, a philosophy that decrees that any dissent be silenced through brainwashing and hard labor is not a model for progressivism.

It's the Qunari, oddly enough, who come across as primitive and narrow-minded, not the rest of Thedas.

^^that

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why do people expect the Arishok to be able to explain the inner workings of QUnari society? That is like expecting the president to explain you, exactly what the construction workers work entails, in explicit detail. That is of course a ridiculous expectation...

[snfonseka]

I am disappointed that BW didn't allow to kill Tallis at the end.

[GodWood]

jamesp81 wrote...
The qun basically offers to not hurt your feelings and/or make you feel valuable.  In return, you accept it's commands to committ all manner of criminality and immorality and you do so without question.

What criminality? What immorality?
You seem to have a habit of saying random condemning statements about the qunari without actually ever making genuine criticisms.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Apparently it is a crime and highly immoral to have a purpose.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 03 novembre 2011 - 09:09 .

[snfonseka]

Sharn01 wrote...

mousafiriain wrote...

I wonder if people would be so instinctively hostile to the qun if it wasn't for the role it assigns mages. Lots of players are a mage in game so maybe they feel its all fine and normal, but i'm absolutely sure that if mages with anything like the power they have in DA existed in reality those same ppl would be demanding harsh restrictions!

And anyway what kind of freedom does the average man in the medieval dark age of Thedas have? Feudal societies assign you a role just as strictly as the qun, except at least the Qunari will educate all children the same, test and discover their abilities and talents, then assign them a role based on that. Much like our system of high-school and university perhaps. In the rest of thedas its decided by birth and wealth and if you're really unlucky you're "free" to take the role of beggar, prostitute, thief or mercenary. Where do you think has a higher standard of living and more developed science and culture?

The Qun is one of the best ideas the developers ever had. Usually the sociology and culture of high-fantasy LOTR style universes is never held up to critical analysis. The way the DA universe subverts and introduces nuance to standard fantasy cliches is what makes it stand out IMO.

It's got us all thinking anyway!

Dragon age is a fantasy setting, like most games of the genre, I would be a much happier person if people would stop describing it as medieval or dark age because it isnt, its a fantasy setting. 

There are some siginifigant differences between a fantasy setting and a medieval and dark age setting.  The people are cleaner, they are better educated, races and sexes share more rights and are usually treated closer to equal if not equal, and they usually have freedoms that people in medieval and dark age settings. 

In Thedas there is no caste system, people are not stuck in the roles they are born to, if a peasent farmer wishes to be a soldier he may try to do so, if he wishes to be a merchant he may try to do that as well.  The only thing that truly separates people is noble titles, which are not indicative of wealth or success, and a non noble who proves him or herself may be awarded a noble title, it happened twice during the coarse of origins alone, first with Loghain and again with the warden, or the person appointed by the warden. 

Totally agree with you. DA2 sttings are much more mordernize that people think. A good example is the gender equality in DA2. DA2 settings are much more brighter than medieval or dark ages. 

On other notes, I don't have a lot of knowledge about the Qun but I personally don't like any religion that makes aggresive advancement towards others.

[snfonseka]

GodWood wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
The qun basically offers to not hurt your feelings and/or make you feel valuable.  In return, you accept it's commands to committ all manner of criminality and immorality and you do so without question.

What criminality? What immorality?
You seem to have a habit of saying random condemning statements about the qunari without actually ever making genuine criticisms.

I think he/ she meant about the aggresive advancement of qunari.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Which is only natural for a superior society.

[Kelnuin]

I personally would like to see more Qunari Symphony, everyone would be working together.....What?.....Qunari Sympathy?.....nevermind then.

Modifié par jamming777, 03 novembre 2011 - 09:49 .

[jamesp81]

GodWood wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
The qun basically offers to not hurt your feelings and/or make you feel valuable.  In return, you accept it's commands to committ all manner of criminality and immorality and you do so without question.

What criminality? What immorality?
You seem to have a habit of saying random condemning statements about the qunari without actually ever making genuine criticisms.

I was wondering when you'd show up.

Qunari criminality includes slavery, brainwashing, a stated policy of violating previously signed international agreements, torture and mutliation of mages, execution or exile of political / religious dissidents, and imperialism. 

Also, selective breeding programs.  I know they do this among their own kind.  I am curious to know if in conquered lands, if established marriages are respected or if they force people to have sex with others to satisfy the demands of the breeding program.  If so, you can put that on the list too.

Modifié par jamesp81, 03 novembre 2011 - 12:30 .

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Which is only natural for a superior society.

Which it's not.

Modifié par jamesp81, 03 novembre 2011 - 12:31 .

[kyles3]

jamesp81 wrote...

The qun basically offers to not hurt your feelings and/or make you feel valuable.  In return, you accept it's commands to committ all manner of criminality and immorality and you do so without question. Or die.  Now, that sounds like a poor deal when  I say it this way, and thats because it really IS a poor deal.  One should not underestimate the insecurity and pride of your average person and just how much that can be leveraged by an unscrupulous person with something to sell.

I don't think it sounds like such a poor deal if you are unsure of your purpose in life. The real selling point of the Qunari religion, after all, is purpose. The Qun tells you what your purpose in life is, how you can serve that purpose, and surrounds you with a community of people similarly committed to fulfilling their respective purposes. 

To me that doesn't sound much different from what the Chantry sells. One may criticize--with good reason--the way the Qunari treat their mages, but what percentage of Qun-followers are involved in actively "torturing" mages (I use quotation marks only because the one Saarebas we speak to seemed to value purpose over physical well-being, and while one unstable man's feelings do not justify the harsh treatment he received, I do think it's worth considering)? I'd wager roughly the same percentage of Andrastians who are actively involved in imprisoning and torturing (one could argue that the Rite of Tranquility is far worse than anything the Qunari do) the mages in their own Circles.

Tallis brings up the fact that there are thousands of Qunari (maybe she said more than that, I don't remember) who have nothing to do with hurting anybody, be they their own or those outside the Qun. I don't think the way that some Qunari treat mages is a sufficient reason for condemning the religion any more than the way some Andrastians treat mages is a sufficient reason for condemning the Chantry.

Modifié par kyles3, 03 novembre 2011 - 01:15 .

[OldMan91]

I don't think it sounds like such a poor deal if you are unsure of your purpose in life. The real selling point of the Qunari religion, after all, is purpose. The Qun tells you what your purpose in life is, how you can serve that purpose, and surrounds you with a community of people similarly committed to fulfilling their respective purposes.

There's nothing wrong with someone suggesting what your "purpose" should be, what line of work you should be in or what skills/talents serve you best. After all we do have job aptitude tests and all that. The problem is not someone suggesting you what your purpose is; it's that they force you to have a purpose, to stick with a certain job.

It's as if since childhood you were told that your purpose was to work in retail shops. Maybe you think you can contribute more to society by being a researcher in a university? Too bad, it was decided for you to be a retail worker, and can only advance in that field... the best probably being a manager of the retail store.

[kyles3]

OldMan91 wrote...

There's nothing wrong with someone suggesting what your "purpose" should be, what line of work you should be in or what skills/talents serve you best. After all we do have job aptitude tests and all that. The problem is not someone suggesting you what your purpose is; it's that they force you to have a purpose, to stick with a certain job. 

It's as if since childhood you were told that your purpose was to work in retail shops. Maybe you think you can contribute more to society by being a researcher in a university? Too bad, it was decided for you to be a retail worker, and can only advance in that field... the best probably being a manager of the retail store.

Not everyone is forced into the Qunari and it doesn't seem like everyone is forced to stick with the Qunari (Tallis' mentor was apparently allowed to walk away without consequence). As far as changing your mind about what your purpose is, I can't imagine such a thought would even cross the mind of the average Qunari. How many Andrastians have ever even entertained the thought that the Maker doesn't exist?

While the rigidity of the Qun seems like it would make for an unpleasant and uncomfortable lifestyle, that rigidity is the price one pays for getting the answer to the most important question in life. I can understand the appeal.

[EmperorSahlertz]

jamesp81 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
The qun basically offers to not hurt your feelings and/or make you feel valuable.  In return, you accept it's commands to committ all manner of criminality and immorality and you do so without question.

What criminality? What immorality?
You seem to have a habit of saying random condemning statements about the qunari without actually ever making genuine criticisms.

I was wondering when you'd show up.

Qunari criminality includes slavery, brainwashing, a stated policy of violating previously signed international agreements, torture and mutliation of mages, execution or exile of political / religious dissidents, and imperialism.  

Also, selective breeding programs.  I know they do this among their own kind.  I am curious to know if in conquered lands, if established marriages are respected or if they force people to have sex with others to satisfy the demands of the breeding program.  If so, you can put that on the list too.

They don't torture their mages... It is a strong word, so I cans ee why your kind would use it... However it doesn't fit, so it is wrong to use... Again, I wouldn't be surprised if you continue to though... They do mutilate their mages, but then again, they have their reasons, since the mutilation only occurs as punishment for when a Saarebas casts magic without permission.

And what slavery exactly are you referring to? If it is the Qamek, then it isn't truly slavery, since they are merely putting the dead vessel of a person to good use. If you are talking about the QUnari people as a whole, then again you are wrong to use the word slavery, since again, it doesn't fit. At all actually. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if you keep uising it.

Oh lord, what you say? They broke an agreement?! Call the whaaaaambulance, because this affront to nature is surely unprecedented!!............................ It isn't? Well it is certainly MORE wrong when the Qunari does it!!

They don't brainwash anymore than any other school of thought does. In our western world, we are often taught that capitalism and democracy is far superior to any other form of government. We are bred, taught, and brainwashed to believe this. So it is not wrong for the Qunari to teach their people that the Qun is superior, since that is what ALL ideologies and religions do. ALL of them.


Imperialism is certainly not a crime either, so the only "crime" to speak of is the exile/imprisonment/execution of any Tal-Vasoth or bas. However that is fully within the rights of the Qunari sovereignty. The Qunari society is build up, and held, upon the pillars of the Qun, if people refuse to be a part of the Qun, they clearly cannot remain in Qunari lands. So it is simply to choose to either be a part of the Qun, or get the **** out of their lands. So again, not a crime.

So basically they commit no crimes, or any acts of immorality. You simply don't agree with them. Which is fair, just don't try and tie a lot of big words to them, especially when none of them fit, at all.

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Which is only natural for a superior society.

Which it's not.

I suppose that is why the Qunari could conquer all of Thedas if they wanted to.... Sure that is only because the setting says they could, but that is however how Thedas is, and therefore the Qunari are superior right now.