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Dragon Age 2 Sales.


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#126
Pious_Augustus

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motomotogirl wrote...

So many complaints! Go replay DA:O. Let those of us who enjoyed (and continue to enjoy) DA2 enjoy it in peace.

I replayed DA:O three times. I've replayed DA2 6+ times. You don't see me consistently trashing DA:O. (And just because something is more popular doesn't make it better.) I loved both; clearly I love DA:O (look at my profile pic and you see my cute mage DA:O elf, right?), but I love DA:2 more. Big. Deal.


Think of it like the Sega Dreamcast people who claim it was such a great system and so many people not liking it well it doesn't matter since we like it but yeah sales were horrible and people really didn't buy it and the console went out way too early in the game.

It's like World of Warcraft with Cata you focused on the Hardcore gamers but yeah you ignored the people who were paying the bills now your in crisis mode.

#127
Melca36

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motomotogirl wrote...

So many complaints! Go replay DA:O. Let those of us who enjoyed (and continue to enjoy) DA2 enjoy it in peace.

I replayed DA:O three times. I've replayed DA2 6+ times. You don't see me consistently trashing DA:O. (And just because something is more popular doesn't make it better.) I loved both; clearly I love DA:O (look at my profile pic and you see my cute mage DA:O elf, right?), but I love DA:2 more. Big. Deal.


People have the right to speak their peace just as you do. I didn't hate DA:2 but it was not a flawless game and neither was Origins.

Think about it for a second, we would not have gotten to great DLCs had it not been for the feedback because the fact the remains the game was rushed and there were a great many gameplay elements that some fans were disappointed about and the developers are trying to do some different things to bring back those fans.

#128
CuriousArtemis

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Melca36 wrote...

People have the right to speak their peace just as you do. I didn't hate DA:2 but it was not a flawless game and neither was Origins.

Think about it for a second, we would not have gotten to great DLCs had it not been for the feedback because the fact the remains the game was rushed and there were a great many gameplay elements that some fans were disappointed about and the developers are trying to do some different things to bring back those fans.




Of course DA2 was not flawless, and as you say, neither was DA:O.  

I don't have a problem with people speaking their minds, but I've only been on the forums about a month and it's really like ... enough with the anti-DA2 threads already!  I'm so tired of people complaining over and over and over again.  I REALLY enjoyed the game, just as some REALLY enjoyed Origins.  I had some serious problems with Origins, but I'm not about to run over there and make a thread about, well, basically why Origins SUCKED.  (Note: I don't think it sucked; I quite enjoyed it, but that's beside the point.)

The point is, this thread was not providing constructive criticism of the game (which, as you say, is what the two lovely DLCs have been built off of) but was simply another "Look at how much DA2 sucked" thread.

Enough.

#129
FedericoV

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Just one question: are you sure that Bioware values only money and sales in term of feedback? For all the talk of evil EAware we read on the forums, it does not seem the case to me. In case, they should have done a carbon copy of DA:O.

So maybe they had access to other informations that for example justify the poor performance of Awakenings and thus DA2 on Xbox and PS3 (at least, if compared to DA:O, we can see a trend).

And if they have access to other informations that we can only guess indirectly from interviews and such, it became pointless to discuss sales data as they are. They have rushed the developmet of DA2 and the result is far from perfect (...understatement... they should have an icon for it), but we can only guess why. The reasons could be multiple and even contradictory.

I say that is more usefull if players keep expressing what they do not like in the game and offer constructive solution in the context of the game Bioware wants to make. Bioware is listening and the DLC are proof of their good faith (even if we should know better than to trust what they promise during development). The rest is fluff good for flames.

Modifié par FedericoV, 26 octobre 2011 - 11:52 .


#130
Zanallen

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I kind of wonder how many people bought DAO, ended up not liking it and then decided not to buy DA2 because of it.

#131
FedericoV

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Zanallen wrote...

I kind of wonder how many people bought DAO, ended up not liking it and then decided not to buy DA2 because of it.


Reasonable argument that I raised in my previous post. The poor performance of DA:A and the criticism against the console version of DA:O seems to point in that direction too.

#132
KilrB

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Zanallen wrote...

I kind of wonder how many people bought DAO, ended up not liking it and then decided not to buy DA2 because of it.


A valid question.

Try this:

Go to your local games dealer and see how many "previously owned" copies of each are on the shelf.

No doubt there were some who did as you say but it would appear then that most of them decided to keep it whereas those who are displeased with DA2 cannot seem to get rid of it fast enough ... <_<

Odd don't you think?

#133
JaegerBane

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FedericoV wrote...

Just one question: are you sure that Bioware values only money and sales in term of feedback? For all the talk of evil EAware we read on the forums, it does not seem the case to me. In case, they should have done a carbon copy of DA:O.

So maybe they had access to other informations that for example justify the poor performance of Awakenings and thus DA2 on Xbox and PS3 (at least, if compared to DA:O, we can see a trend).

And if they have access to other informations that we can only guess indirectly from interviews and such, it became pointless to discuss sales data as they are. They have rushed the developmet of DA2 and the result is far from perfect (...understatement... they should have an icon for it), but we can only guess why. The reasons could be multiple and even contradictory.

I say that is more usefull if players keep expressing what they do not like in the game and offer constructive solution in the context of the game Bioware wants to make. Bioware is listening and the DLC are proof of their good faith (even if we should know better than to trust what they promise during development). The rest is fluff good for flames.


I'm sure there were some reason as to why Bioware took the approach they did, but its fallacious to assume that the reasons in question were justifiable or even made sense. Lets not forget that Bioware made a variety of errors that, by all rights, they should have known from the outset were simply bad ideas that weren't going to garner any praise - I think the best example of this was the heavy re-use of areas, the very thing that fans made a big fuss about with Mass Effect, and was subsequently corrected in Mass Effect 2.

To be brutally honest, given the attitude we've heard so far from the dev team (both positive and negative - the intial damage control of "the fans just don't get it" all the way to the much better quality seen in the DLCs), the impression I get is that the devs don't seem to take warning signs seriously until it has been demonstrated to them each time that they don't work. The best way of dealing with this are threads like these, which bluntly wave the evidence in their faces, and for that reason I say let them continue.

#134
Zanallen

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KilrB wrote...

A valid question.

Try this:

Go to your local games dealer and see how many "previously owned" copies of each are on the shelf.

No doubt there were some who did as you say but it would appear then that most of them decided to keep it whereas those who are displeased with DA2 cannot seem to get rid of it fast enough ... <_<

Odd don't you think?


Actually, my local Gamestop has more DA:O used than DA2. Not that the stock on the shelves of a single store mean anything. We have no hard numbers, so we can't say how many people bought DAO, didn't like it and then didn't buy the sequel as a result. However, we can estimate the purchases of Awakening. That might give us an idea, since people who enjoyed DAO are likely to buy the expansion to the game.

#135
Cobra's_back

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motomotogirl wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

People have the right to speak their peace just as you do. I didn't hate DA:2 but it was not a flawless game and neither was Origins.

Think about it for a second, we would not have gotten to great DLCs had it not been for the feedback because the fact the remains the game was rushed and there were a great many gameplay elements that some fans were disappointed about and the developers are trying to do some different things to bring back those fans.




Of course DA2 was not flawless, and as you say, neither was DA:O.  

I don't have a problem with people speaking their minds, but I've only been on the forums about a month and it's really like ... enough with the anti-DA2 threads already!  I'm so tired of people complaining over and over and over again.  I REALLY enjoyed the game, just as some REALLY enjoyed Origins.  I had some serious problems with Origins, but I'm not about to run over there and make a thread about, well, basically why Origins SUCKED.  (Note: I don't think it sucked; I quite enjoyed it, but that's beside the point.)

The point is, this thread was not providing constructive criticism of the game (which, as you say, is what the two lovely DLCs have been built off of) but was simply another "Look at how much DA2 sucked" thread.

Enough.


If you don't like what they are saying just don't read it. Nothing you say can force them to like it. Bio Ware actually benefits from both positive and negative feedback. The real problem is when a customer buys it, doesn't like it and never comes back. As long as people are here there is hope in keeping them interested.Image IPB

#136
KilrB

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Zanallen wrote...

KilrB wrote...

A valid question.

Try this:

Go to your local games dealer and see how many "previously owned" copies of each are on the shelf.

No doubt there were some who did as you say but it would appear then that most of them decided to keep it whereas those who are displeased with DA2 cannot seem to get rid of it fast enough ... <_<

Odd don't you think?


Actually, my local Gamestop has more DA:O used than DA2. Not that the stock on the shelves of a single store mean anything. We have no hard numbers, so we can't say how many people bought DAO, didn't like it and then didn't buy the sequel as a result. However, we can estimate the purchases of Awakening. That might give us an idea, since people who enjoyed DAO are likely to buy the expansion to the game.


Interesting ...

It's quite different here midway of the third coast and north-aways. :huh:

Which coast, if any, are you on?

#137
kingjezza

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ghostbusters101 wrote...

If you don't like what they are saying just don't read it. Nothing you say can force them to like it. Bio Ware actually benefits from both positive and negative feedback. The real problem is when a customer buys it, doesn't like it and never comes back. As long as people are here there is hope in keeping them interested.Image IPB


Exactly, better talking about it than not, even if it's negative talk, least that means the series is still in thought.

On another forum I use that has a gaming section the DA2 thread hasn't been posted in for months, long before even Legacy came out was the last post, when you consider the ME2 thread is still on page 1 and getting discussed and other games like FNV still get regular posts when new DLC comes out it really seems like there is very little interest at all in DA2 away from these forums.

That is far worse for Bioware than all the negative talk on here.

#138
Firky

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Zanallen wrote...

I kind of wonder how many people bought DAO, ended up not liking it and then decided not to buy DA2 because of it.


I don't imagine it would be that significant, but that's based on the way I buy games. Shooters don't interest me, so I don't buy them. So, if I didn't like RPGs, I wouldn't have bought DAO, unless it came highly recommended by someone who knew what games I like, or whatever. I don't know how many gamers that's true for, but I certainly don't try every game and go yea or nay. I just buy ones I'm sure I'm going to like.

PS. I also didn't finish BG1 for a while, but that didn't stop me buying BG2, because an RPG is an RPG. (And, I went back for it.)

Modifié par Firky, 27 octobre 2011 - 12:51 .


#139
Andraste_Reborn

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I kind of wonder how many people bought DAO, ended up not liking it and then decided not to buy DA2 because of it.


In my social group, six people bought DAO when it came out. Only two of us finished it, and the other guy played through once and then traded it in. I played it seven times and I'm the only one who bought DA2. (Which I have now played five times.)

Now, obviously the plural of anecdote is not data. However, I can safely say that people who didn't like DAO and therefore didn't purchase DA2 exist. In what numbers, I have no idea.

#140
Zanallen

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KilrB wrote...

Interesting ...

It's quite different here midway of the third coast and north-aways. :huh:

Which coast, if any, are you on?


West. South of Los Angeles.

#141
Zanallen

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Andrastee wrote...

In my social group, six people bought DAO when it came out. Only two of us finished it, and the other guy played through once and then traded it in. I played it seven times and I'm the only one who bought DA2. (Which I have now played five times.)

Now, obviously the plural of anecdote is not data. However, I can safely say that people who didn't like DAO and therefore didn't purchase DA2 exist. In what numbers, I have no idea.


Interesting. Personally, I know five people who bought DA:O. We all liked it and all ended up buying DA2. Of course, all five of us liked DA2 as well, so maybe we're odd. However, I do know a guy whgo bought ME1, didn't like it because he thought it was slow and the combat was odd. Despite ME2 having much improved combat mechanics, he still refused to buy it or even rent it.

#142
Firky

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I don't know anyone who bought but didn't finish Origins, but I think the gamers I know are careful purchasers, RPG fans, and fairly patient, like me.

For DA2 though, about half of the people I know who finished Origins gave DA2 a pass. Out of the half that bought it, about half again didn't like it, half did. I'm probably talking about around 15 people that I talk about RPGs with, mostly online though.

Maybe it proves anecdotal evidence isn't very useful. (But I do find sales and stats quite interesting.)

#143
Zanallen

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Firky wrote...

I don't know anyone who bought but didn't finish Origins, but I think the gamers I know are careful purchasers, RPG fans, and fairly patient, like me.

For DA2 though, about half of the people I know who finished Origins gave DA2 a pass. Out of the half that bought it, about half again didn't like it, half did. I'm probably talking about around 15 people that I talk about RPGs with, mostly online though.

Maybe it proves anecdotal evidence isn't very useful. (But I do find sales and stats quite interesting.)


The reason I am wondering is Awakenings rather poor sales plus that Bioware metric data that said that only 50% (Was that it? Or was it lower?) of people finished Origins. Granted, we don't know how accurate that data is, but it could go a long way to explaining why Bioware made as many changes as they did, despite having such a short dev time for DA2.

#144
MerinTB

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Personal anecdotes aren't terribly useful, but I know of eight people personally that bought Origins. Of those eight only two bought Dragon Age 2, and one of those two refuses to finish it. Of those other six, three didn't finish Origins and one other didn't like Origins.

Make of those numbers what you will, but from my small circle I know people either didn't like/finish Origins and didn't pick up DA2 or loved Origins but were very wary of DA2. Counting myself in that mix, three of nine DA:O players bought DA2, two of which finished DA2, none of which preferred DA2 to DA:O.

What is relevant to the thread, however, is nine DA:O sales translated into three DA2 sales. One of those three was optimistic, two of those were buying based on love of Origins and naive hope that their concerns about DA2 were misguided.

3 DA:O's sold for every 1 DA2 sold seems to be about what vgchartz (I know, I know, it's ALL LIES) with some rough North American PC sales factored in using a comparative scale for EMEAA PC sales for DA:O as compared to DA2 sales for EMEAA and NA, as well as compared to DA:O to DA2 sales for PS3 and XBOX 360.

About 4.4 million DA:O sold compared to 1.56 million DA2 sold (not counting digital sales for PC at all in any number I believe.)

#145
Zanallen

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MerinTB wrote...

Personal anecdotes aren't terribly useful, but I know of eight people personally that bought Origins. Of those eight only two bought Dragon Age 2, and one of those two refuses to finish it. Of those other six, three didn't finish Origins and one other didn't like Origins.

Make of those numbers what you will, but from my small circle I know people either didn't like/finish Origins and didn't pick up DA2 or loved Origins but were very wary of DA2. Counting myself in that mix, three of nine DA:O players bought DA2, two of which finished DA2, none of which preferred DA2 to DA:O.

What is relevant to the thread, however, is nine DA:O sales translated into three DA2 sales. One of those three was optimistic, two of those were buying based on love of Origins and naive hope that their concerns about DA2 were misguided.

3 DA:O's sold for every 1 DA2 sold seems to be about what vgchartz (I know, I know, it's ALL LIES) with some rough North American PC sales factored in using a comparative scale for EMEAA PC sales for DA:O as compared to DA2 sales for EMEAA and NA, as well as compared to DA:O to DA2 sales for PS3 and XBOX 360.

About 4.4 million DA:O sold compared to 1.56 million DA2 sold (not counting digital sales for PC at all in any number I believe.)


Yeah, but the question is why did DA:O sell more than DA2. Unlike what many DA2 detractors would have everyone believe, it isn't a cut and dry "DAO was awesome and DA2 sucks. Sales reflect that". There are a number of reasons for the divergence in sales. The truth is probably a mix of them all.

#146
Firky

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I don't know how many people finished Origins but I'd actually be vaguelly surprised if it were 50%. I'd expect more people to have finished DAII because, if you wanted it to be (turn down difficulty, and leave markers on) it was a lot easier to finish, probably.

I think playing and loving RPGs, but not necessarily finishing them, is a fairly typical RPG experience. I consider myself an Ultima expert, but I didn't finish a single one at the time. (There was no internet and I was young.) Now I've finished several, but I'm still slogging through V now, thanks to GOG. Similarly, I love PST and Arcanum, on the strength of how much I've played of them, but I've never gotten to the end of those two.

RPGs are lengthy and difficult, traditionally. If I was BioWare, I wouldn't have seen 50% completion rate as prohibitive to future purchase, but that's the way I experience the RPG genre.

Modifié par Firky, 27 octobre 2011 - 03:10 .


#147
MerinTB

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Zanallen wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Personal anecdotes aren't terribly useful, but I know of eight people personally that bought Origins. Of those eight only two bought Dragon Age 2, and one of those two refuses to finish it. Of those other six, three didn't finish Origins and one other didn't like Origins.

Make of those numbers what you will, but from my small circle I know people either didn't like/finish Origins and didn't pick up DA2 or loved Origins but were very wary of DA2. Counting myself in that mix, three of nine DA:O players bought DA2, two of which finished DA2, none of which preferred DA2 to DA:O.

What is relevant to the thread, however, is nine DA:O sales translated into three DA2 sales. One of those three was optimistic, two of those were buying based on love of Origins and naive hope that their concerns about DA2 were misguided.

3 DA:O's sold for every 1 DA2 sold seems to be about what vgchartz (I know, I know, it's ALL LIES) with some rough North American PC sales factored in using a comparative scale for EMEAA PC sales for DA:O as compared to DA2 sales for EMEAA and NA, as well as compared to DA:O to DA2 sales for PS3 and XBOX 360.

About 4.4 million DA:O sold compared to 1.56 million DA2 sold (not counting digital sales for PC at all in any number I believe.)


Yeah, but the question is why did DA:O sell more than DA2. Unlike what many DA2 detractors would have everyone believe, it isn't a cut and dry "DAO was awesome and DA2 sucks. Sales reflect that". There are a number of reasons for the divergence in sales. The truth is probably a mix of them all.


Again, personal anecdote time:

All three of us who bought DA2 did so out of love of Origins.  Two of us with major reservations, one of us with blinders on refusing to listen to the other two who were trying to talk about their concerns.  All three disliked the game.

Of the other six...
There were two who finished Origins more than once but didn't like at all what they saw / heard about DA2 and will never pick it up. 
One finished the game, didn't like it, didn't pick up DA2 as a result.
Two of those who didn't finish Origins played it more than once, trying different origins and builds, but never finished the game.  I can't speak for how far they got in the game.  One of those I know was turned off to DA2 based on the rest of our reactions and reviews, the other isn't set against buying it but has no plans to.
The last one who didn't finish Origins played it part way through once, buying the game largely due to hype from some of the rest of us.  He enjoyed it well enough but not enough to play again, finish, or pick up a sequel.

So there you go, many reasons for not buying DA2 but only one real reason for buying it - love of Origins.

I don't think the number of "didn't play DA:O but bought DA2" purchases are statistically significant.  I think the number of "played both but didn't like DA2" is significant, however.  As, I believe, the number of "played DA:O and therefore bought DA2" is probably staggering.

#148
Joy Divison

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Zanallen wrote...

Yeah, but the question is why did DA:O sell more than DA2. Unlike what many DA2 detractors would have everyone believe, it isn't a cut and dry "DAO was awesome and DA2 sucks. Sales reflect that". There are a number of reasons for the divergence in sales. The truth is probably a mix of them all.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

#149
Barbarossa2010

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Well for what it's worth, DA:O was my first RPG after years of thinking gaming was only about shooters, and I play primarily on an XBOX 360. I loved the radically different gaming experience it offered. I urged 6 of my friends, who were all shooter goons, to play it. 5 of the 6 picked it up and all 5 (plus me of course)completed it to the end.

Each of us 6 RPG newbs did a minimum of two playthroughs. I personally did 7, 3 others did roughly 4 or 5, and 2 of us did 2 playthroughs. Each encouraged a friend or two, but I'll pass on discussing since that really takes anecdotal evidence too far into hearsay.

After much discussion about what we knew was going to be a compressed development timeline (and we didn't know a helluva lot about RPGs, but we knew a year was nowhere near enough time to pull together something so complex), and what we heard about the "changes," we still decided to purchase (4 of us pre-ordered) DA2.

2 of us completed it (only managing a single playthrough [I actually finished Act 1 of a 2nd playthrough), 3 didn't finish Act 2, 1 didn't finish Act 1; all of us were greatly disappointed. We could not fathom how an RPG developer (never heard of Bioware until Origins) which had the horsepower to bring us all into the fold to play a "lame" fantasy game, would put out a sequel which stripped out nearly everything we found attractive about Origins, tried so hard to be an action game (which we could smell as a fraud a mile away), and worst of all, was such a drudgery to play. To me (us) it was anything but epic. Give me playing a Warden slaying Archdemons anyday, over playing some passive schlep. It might cliche or so "2 years ago," but it damn sure works for an interactive story.

Anyway, I could detail a list of the basic consensus among us of what we thought was terrible compared to Origins, but that's a horse long dead, and Bioware has been fairly clear that it is DA2 that has all the "potential," not the game we, as a group of RPG newcomers, actually liked. We may not be bright hardcore RPG nerds, chatting up the finer details of video cards and mods, but we can clearly see the writing on the wall with this franchise.

Needless to say, there are 4 pre-orders I personally know of that BW cannot count on for DA3. Maybe they'll realize at a corporate level, what a jewel they had in Origins (in our anectdotal opinion of course), and attempt to repeat that experience. But in word and deed, BWs vision for the franchise isn't really what we as a group want.

The collapse in sales makes perfect sense to us...anecdotally speaking.

EDIT: Origins led four of us to Mass Effect 1 and 2, and we like the ME franchise very much (it's nice to have your co-op team established early on BTW), but, unfortunately we aren't very much interested in DA any longer since BW seems no longer interested in giving us what attracted us in the first place. It's a shame really.  We were pretty stoked about Dragons and Wardens and Witches for a year or so.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 27 octobre 2011 - 04:59 .


#150
Yrkoon

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Zanallen wrote...


The reason I am wondering is Awakenings rather poor sales

Awakening sold rather well for an expansion pack.