118 réponses à ce sujet

[DragonSailor]

 get busy in the circle? I never really understood the whole 'you can't leave or ever see your family again' aspect of the circle. To me, the circle should kinda be like, well... Harry Potter. A place of refuge and learning and training, not a prision. And I definitely don't see why it's necessary to cut off all communication with the outside - unless, of course, the circle has an ulterior motive, which brings me to the reason for my post. The more I think about the circle situation, the more I wonder what's the true motive behind it and a part of me thinks that it's not just to protect mages from themselves and society, etc. and all that crap, but it's to stomp out magic.

Forgive me if i missed something somewhere, but to my knowledge, joining the circle is kinda like joining the chantry - but with magic; it includes vows of chastity. Nowhere (that I could find) does it say circle mages are allowed to be together, to love, to have relationships, to get married, etc. This doesn't mean that they can't, but I'm leaning that way because of a few things we see in the game. The best example would have to be Emile de Launcet; he has to run away from the circle to get laid. You could argue Jowen and Lily in DAO is an example of forbidden love, but honestly I can't tell if the relationship was so frown upon because mages aren't allowed to hook up or if it was because Lily was in the chantry, or if it was some combo of the two.

Anyway, I can only assume that by stopping mages from procreating, the chantry hopes to eventually wipe out magic (of course this probably won't happen because magic can skip generations, but...). I really think that that's the chantry's true motive. To remove all magic. So does anyone think there's some logic to my theory, or is it simply the rantings of the paranoid?

[Obadiah]

I don't know if there is a vow of chastity when joining the circle, but the members certainly seem to get busy when given the chance... at least in the novels.

[Sharn01]

Technically they are not suppose to have sex , and get punished if they get caught but it does happen.  Any children born from the union are taken away right after childbirth.

Modifié par Sharn01, 23 octobre 2011 - 07:44 .

[GavrielKay]

I seem to recall a bit of dialogue or codex that said strong relationships were frowned upon and marriage was allowed only by some Knight Commanders sometimes. Generally it seems that anything that could lead a mage to have someone to get upset over or care about too strongly is discouraged. Also, according to Anders, the mages tried to avoid loving relationships because it gave the Templars power over them.

I don't think it is like the Chantry with a vow of chastity or anything, just part of generally controlling the mages and anything that might lead to emotional turmoil. After all, mages don't "join" the circles, many of them are basically kidnapped and forced there as children.

I doubt the Chantry wants to stamp out all magic. They definitely want to control it and those who possess it, but they'd lose their main power base if mages just ceased to exist. They make money from Tranquil enchanters and get support from the general public by being "needed" to protect them from mages. No mages = less money and power.

[lobi]

I bet there are at least four Mages called Heather with a 'tickle' spell used to embarrass guys.

Modifié par lobi, 23 octobre 2011 - 08:07 .

[Northern Sun]

I believe it varies from Circle to Circle. The Ferelden Circle seems to look the other way as long as there isn't any meaningful relationships while the Kirkwall it's considered grounds for tranquility.

[Sharn01]

Northern Sun wrote...

I believe it varies from Circle to Circle. The Ferelden Circle seems to look the other way as long as there isn't any meaningful relationships while the Kirkwall it's considered grounds for tranquility.

Wynne was punished for having a relationship, she managed to keep it a secret until she got pregnant.  Anders makes a joke about the robes, but the joke revealed that they are not suppose to have relationships.  The joke revolved around having easy access when the Templars where not looking.  They unforunately did not flat out tell you about it, if you want to learn a lot about the circle you need to listen to random party banter.

Off topic but DA2 was even worse with a lot of information only available as party banter, particularly when over half the games companion dialogue occured during banters, I think some of it should be available by talking to the npc's. 

Another idea could be that the main character can throw a party at one of the major hubs, for DA2 it would be the Hanged Man, where you can have all the companions together at once with a random party banter going off every minute or so while they are all hanging out drinking.  It sure would beat changing party members out a couple dozen times and running back and forth between two areas with a banter trigger near the entrance.

[Lazy Jer]

Well it's probably not allowed, but I'll bet ya it happens.

[Lisa_H]

If I remember correctly in The Calling novel Duncan has a sexual encounter with a female apprentice, and if you have Anders with you when you find Emile de Launcet he comments that the Fereldan Circle was more fun everyone was kissing everyone.

[Gervaise]

I think the difference is between having casual sex and a real relationship. When my female mage warden said to Jowan "why did we never?", he doesn't reply "because you know its forbidden" but a shocked "I always thought of you as a sister." The relationship he has with Lily is forbidden because she is with the Chantry, so a) has probably made a vow of chastity and is not meant to fraternise with mages in that way. Likewise relationships between Templars and mages would be forbidden because of the conflict of interest. Judging by Isabella's reaction to Emil, I would say the reason he hasn't had so much as a kiss has less to do with the rules and more to do with the fact that the other mages couldn't stand him.

DA2 seems to contradict certain aspects of Circle life that were established in Origins. Everyone in Origins no longer has contact with their families. In DA2 it seems possible for people to send and receive letters. However, it may be that the Gallows is simply so large that it is possible to do things with the co-operation of more lenient Templars, without Meredith getting to hear of it. This is why Sampson was originally dismissed from the Templars, because he was acting as a go-between for a mage and his sweetheart and got caught by the wrong person. The Ferelden Circle was some miles from any major settlement, so it was harder for Templars to slip away and deliver illicit messages. In fact I got the impression that Templars had little contact with their families either. In Kirkwall Templars can still lead a family life and can spend their off duty time wandering around the city and frequenting brothels, so it is much easier for the rules to be bent in such circumstances.

Mages who it is felt can be trusted were allowed out occasionally from the Circle in Origins, presumably because the Templars still have their phylactery should they abscond. Meredith describes Bethany as an exemplary mage and the codex on Bethany states that once she passed her Harrowing, she quickly assumed a senior position in the Circle. Thus it is understandable that she may have been allowed out on specific missions like Legacy, or at the request of an influential noble, in MoA. It is also possible that this is why she is permitted visits by her mother and then later Gamlen - in fact given the circumstances of Leandra's death, Meredith might well have encouraged Bethany being allowed to know.

[Gervaise]

Incidentally the Chantry would never advocate the total removal of magic from the system because it is needed too much. The Qunari might well have succeeded in their invasion but for the assistance of the Circle mages against them. Mages are very helpful in providing blanket offensive spells against Darkspawn, which is why the Ferelden Circle sent a contingent to Ostagar. What the Chantry, and the nobles who back their stance, wish is to keep mages under their control, so they do not assume positions of power. The general population back this rule because on the whole they are afraid of magic and what a corrupt mage or abomination could do to them. Even families with mage children are often the first to give them up to the Circle and given what seems to happen to inexperienced mages when put under emotional strain, this may not be entirely due to Chantry propaganda but annecdotal evidence of what happens when you do not.

The biggest problem for mages is the fact that in the past the Tevinter Imperium ruled by mages that subjugated the rest of the known world and that even though their power was broken and for a time the Imperium was ruled by non-mages, they remained the power "behind the throne" and once given the opportunity took it back once again. No one, apart from a few ambitious mages, wants to see that system to return to the rest of Thedas, so public opinion is always going to be prejudiced against mages.

[naledgeborn]

Mages are cut off from their families for the same reason Jedi are. It can turn them to the "darkside" (abominations, deals with demons).

Think Connor and what happened at Redcliffe. Being a mage has it's pros and cons. As much as I sympathize they don't have it worse than anybody else (other than the whole demonic possession thing).

[Sir JK]

I believe mages are discouraged from forming relationships or having sexual encounters. The Circles (the institution) promote chastity for mages and chastity is a whole lot easier to maintain if you don't tempt yourself.

The reason lie in the name of the Rage demons, the Desire demons and the Pride demons. These three emotions can be closely linked to love. Jealousy for instance, would probably attract both desire and rage demons. And watching a loved one dying is sure to attract a desire demon.
It's easy to say no to a demon when all is well. But life isn't always well and easy. Hence the risk.

Contrary to popular belief. It isn't always easy to just say "No".

Hence why mages would be discouraged from love. I suppose the Templars could turn a blind eye to mages doing the Isabela approach (all physical, no love). But it's unlikely to work.

[Northern Sun]

Now that I think of it, I distinctly remember a dev over the summer saying that there was no uniform policy for things like casual relationships and that it was up to the discretion of Knight-Commanders.

[Huntress]

Ferelden circle is nothing similar of what we find in kirkwall, some rules were broken in ferelden circle and templars sometimes turn the face because they trust the first enchanter ( the mage was allow to become a warden after helping a blood-mage) with meredith however the rule changed and mages are lockup or turn tranquil without much thoughts.
In the gallows there is one mage talking to a tranquil and he said: I love you! the tranquil answer is: am belong to "so and so now"* ( *templar).
If anyone allow sweet bethany to be in that place meredith have a huge weapon against the champion:
1)turn away from meredith bethany could suffer.
2) what better to allow family to visit her after the mother dies? magic is evil and bethany should learn the hard way. yes that woman is a sick Bstard.

[LobselVith8]

Gaider addressed that some Circles of Magi prohibit relationships, which we see in practice with the Circle of Kirkwall.

[KJandrew]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider addressed that some Circles of Magi prohibit relationships, which we see in practice with the Circle of Kirkwall.

I thought it was serious relationships that wher forbidden. Like quick one night-stands are ok but marriage or close enough are forbidden.

[LobselVith8]

KJandrew wrote...

I thought it was serious relationships that were forbidden.

Gaider stated that while they were prohibited in some Circles (in the thread that originated about "Templars and Chastity") they sometimes happened in spite of it. We pretty much hear that this is what is going on in Kirkwall, with its Circle of Magi (during "On the Loose" and "Tranquility").

As Gaider states about marriage and relationships: "The policy on fraternization will depend on the individual Circle-- some forbid it, while others do not, though in either case it still occurs." Here is the quote in full:

David Gaider wrote...

Mages within the Circle are permitted to marry, but it's impractical with outsiders and they also must get permission from the Chantry (so it might be considered a reward for good behavior). Even so, the culture within the typical Circle of Magi tends to make mages unwilling to marry. The policy on fraternization will depend on the individual Circle-- some forbid it, while others do not, though in either case it still occurs. Considering mages live outside normal culture, they also consider themselves free of cultural conventions (especially those who were raised in a Circle from a young age) and thus tend to be quite liberal in their views.

Whew! Okay-- verbose answer of the day. Time for coffee.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 octobre 2011 - 01:57 .

[GavrielKay]

Well, a mixed company of adults, kept together day and night for most of their lives is just about guaranteed to result in relationships. Not that churches don't regularly enjoy trying to convince people not to actually be human, but it rarely works. Just by "forbidding" it though, they'd keep it mostly secretive and go a fair way toward keeping it from becoming truly serious. Secrecy and fear would wreck many relationships without the Templars even finding out specifically.

[Big I]

naledgeborn wrote...

Mages are cut off from their families for the same reason Jedi are. It can turn them to the "darkside" (abominations, deals with demons).

Think Connor and what happened at Redcliffe. Being a mage has it's pros and cons. As much as I sympathize they don't have it worse than anybody else (other than the whole demonic possession thing).

I always hated that rationale. Did Malcolm Hawke's love for his family put him at risk? Did Wynne's affection for her apprentices? And taking away children makes no sense, mages would just transfer their paternal/maternal feelings to their apprentices/other people (e.g. Wynne and Alistair, Irving and the Mage Warden). It's just another example of Chantry paranoia and fear.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 24 octobre 2011 - 06:49 .

[Andraste_Reborn]

There's evidence that at least some mages in the Ferelden circle are allowed contact with their families. Finn certainly seems to be in touch with his doting parents often enough for them to send him presents and knit him a ridiculous hat.

Of course, the Ferelden Circle is less strict in general than its Kirkwall counterpart. (Bethany still has contact with Hawke, but that seems to be a special case.)

[DKJaigen]

I think it has more to do if the mage is from the nobility. The templars don't want to ****** them of after all.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Mages are cut off from their families for the same reason Jedi are. It can turn them to the "darkside" (abominations, deals with demons).

Think Connor and what happened at Redcliffe. Being a mage has it's pros and cons. As much as I sympathize they don't have it worse than anybody else (other than the whole demonic possession thing).

I always hated that rationale. Did Malcolm Hawke's love for his family put him at risk? Did Wynne's affection for her apprentices? And taking away children makes no sense, mages would just transfer their paternal/maternal feelings to their apprentices/other people (e.g. Wynne and Alistair, Irving and the Mage Warden). It's just another example of Chantry paranoia and fear.

They don't take the children away from their parents because they fear their emotional bonds. They take them away because they fear they would remain untrained if not taken to the Circle.

[Uccio]

^ Chanty and templars take mage children away because they hate freedom.

[Big I]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
They don't take the children away from their parents because they fear their emotional bonds. They take them away because they fear they would remain untrained if not taken to the Circle.

That's why they take them to the Circle, but denying/discouraging contact between mages and their families is part of the same rationale that stops mages from marrying, raising children, or having romantic relationships - to stop them forming emotional bonds. And it's stupid.