118 réponses à ce sujet

[Wittand25]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are no cases of mages being denied (written) contact with their families. People are basing all their "BUT THE CIRCLE KEEPS THEM AWAY FROM FAMILIES RABBLE RABBLE!!" on the case of one mage, Ella, in which we simply don't know the entire story. There could be hundreds of reasons for why Ella's mother wasn't informed of where Ella was taken, such as for instances her father requesting it be so.

You have to remember that all too often the families of mages have no desire to keep contact with their child, and nor does the child with his family. Emotional bonds aren't directly prohibited, but strong emotions simply needs to be controlled with great discipline, which is simply an impossibility from younger students, which may be why outside contact in the early years are limited.

Considering Ella's parents welcomed her with open arms before she set out on her own, I doubt her father was the reason why.

And you have no evidence besides Jowan IIRC that mages and their families keep no contact with one another because the family or the mage doesn't want to.

But there is plenty of evidence that if the parents want to stay in touch they can. Eamon could, Finn´s parents could, Leandra and Gamlen can visit Bethany even Arianni can visit Feynriel in the Kirkwall circle.

[IanPolaris]

Wittand25 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are no cases of mages being denied (written) contact with their families. People are basing all their "BUT THE CIRCLE KEEPS THEM AWAY FROM FAMILIES RABBLE RABBLE!!" on the case of one mage, Ella, in which we simply don't know the entire story. There could be hundreds of reasons for why Ella's mother wasn't informed of where Ella was taken, such as for instances her father requesting it be so.

You have to remember that all too often the families of mages have no desire to keep contact with their child, and nor does the child with his family. Emotional bonds aren't directly prohibited, but strong emotions simply needs to be controlled with great discipline, which is simply an impossibility from younger students, which may be why outside contact in the early years are limited.

Considering Ella's parents welcomed her with open arms before she set out on her own, I doubt her father was the reason why.

And you have no evidence besides Jowan IIRC that mages and their families keep no contact with one another because the family or the mage doesn't want to.

But there is plenty of evidence that if the parents want to stay in touch they can. Eamon could, Finn´s parents could, Leandra and Gamlen can visit Bethany even Arianni can visit Feynriel in the Kirkwall circle.

Actually there is plenty of evidence that under almost all circumstances they can NOT.  The ones that can either reside in very liberal circles (Fereldan) or are members of extremely important (read noble) families, or both.  The Chantry takes away children from their parents and then wonders why the resulting mages wind up psychologically impaired.....

Idiots.

-Polaris

[Everwarden]

IanPolaris wrote...
The Chantry takes away children from their parents and then wonders why the resulting mages wind up psychologically impaired.....

Idiots.

-Polaris

The physical abuse likely didn't help either, if one takes the comic as canon. 

If anything, the mages should have revolted earlier. They had far more patience than most real groups would in their shoes.

[Wittand25]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually there is plenty of evidence that under almost all circumstances they can NOT.  The ones that can either reside in very liberal circles (Fereldan) or are members of extremely important (read noble) families, or both.  The Chantry takes away children from their parents and then wonders why the resulting mages wind up psychologically impaired.....

Idiots.

-Polaris

You call Arianni, the poor elven woman living in the Alienage, important or the Kirkwall circle liberal?

The thruth is it is possible to visit, but since Thedas is a medivial setting it is impossible to do so for everyone who does not live extremly close to a circle or is rich enough so that they do not need to work for a living.

The stigma of having a mage in the family of course keeps many people away, but there is no law that would prohibit parents visiting their mage child.

Modifié par Wittand25, 25 octobre 2011 - 10:26 .

[SkittlesKat96]

Wittand25 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually there is plenty of evidence that under almost all circumstances they can NOT.  The ones that can either reside in very liberal circles (Fereldan) or are members of extremely important (read noble) families, or both.  The Chantry takes away children from their parents and then wonders why the resulting mages wind up psychologically impaired.....

Idiots.

-Polaris

You call Arianni, the poor elven woman living in the Alienage, important or the Kirkwall circle liberal?

The thruth is it is possible to visit, but since Thedas is a medivial setting it is impossible to do so for everyone who does not live extremly close to a circle or is rich enough so that they do not need to work for a living.

The stigma of having a mage in the family of course keeps many people away, but there is no law that would prohibit parents visiting their mage child.

*waits for Ian to post logical fallacy/assumption/strawman argument*

[IanPolaris]

Wittand25 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually there is plenty of evidence that under almost all circumstances they can NOT.  The ones that can either reside in very liberal circles (Fereldan) or are members of extremely important (read noble) families, or both.  The Chantry takes away children from their parents and then wonders why the resulting mages wind up psychologically impaired.....

Idiots.

-Polaris

You call Arianni, the poor elven woman living in the Alienage, important or the Kirkwall circle liberal?

The thruth is it is possible to visit, but since Thedas is a medivial setting it is impossible to do so for everyone who does not live extremly close to a circle or is rich enough so that they do not need to work for a living.

The stigma of having a mage in the family of course keeps many people away, but there is no law that would prohibit parents visiting their mage child.

Feynriel and his mother are friends (or at least can call) on noble connections, i.e. Lord (Amel) Hawke.  My point stands.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The point is we hear repeatedly that under almost all circumstances mages are seperated from their parents at a very young age and they are not allowed to have future contact. The exceptions are just that: exceptions.

Take away children from their parents at a young age and put them into an abusive prison environment, and the Chantry then wonders why so many mages hate the Chantry. Idiots.

It's simple. Treat people like animales and BIG SHOCK they act like animales.

-Polaris

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

The point is we hear repeatedly that under almost all circumstances mages are seperated from their parents at a very young age and they are not allowed to have future contact. The exceptions are just that: exceptions.

Take away children from their parents at a young age and put them into an abusive prison environment, and the Chantry then wonders why so many mages hate the Chantry. Idiots.

It's simple. Treat people like animales and BIG SHOCK they act like animales.

-Polaris

Mages are taken away when their magical abilities first present themselves. Untrained mages are highly dangerous. The quicker you get them into a training regiment, the better. It just so happens that magic first presents itself at a young age, probably somewhere around puberty though the wiki says 6 to 12 (No source).

We have seen two Circles. Two. And they are very different from each other. You can't say that all Circles are "abusive prison environments".

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The point is we hear repeatedly that under almost all circumstances mages are seperated from their parents at a very young age and they are not allowed to have future contact. The exceptions are just that: exceptions.

Take away children from their parents at a young age and put them into an abusive prison environment, and the Chantry then wonders why so many mages hate the Chantry. Idiots.

It's simple. Treat people like animales and BIG SHOCK they act like animales.

-Polaris

Mages are taken away when their magical abilities first present themselves. Untrained mages are highly dangerous. The quicker you get them into a training regiment, the better. It just so happens that magic first presents itself at a young age, probably somewhere around puberty though the wiki says 6 to 12 (No source).

We have seen two Circles. Two. And they are very different from each other. You can't say that all Circles are "abusive prison environments".

This entire argument is a non-sequitor (latin:  does not follow).  No one argues that untrained mages are dangerous, and no one argues that some sort of training for magically talented children should be mandatory.  No one.

NO ONE.

However, taking children away from their families never to be seen again is not only damaging but unspeakably cruel (and is considered by some to be a form of genocide in of itself for what it's worth).  Just because mages should all have to be trained does NOT mean they have to be taken away from their families.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  As for circles being abusive prison environments, yes I think I can make that argument.  By all accounts, the Fereldan circle is the most liberal in Thedas, yet it is directly called a prison more than once.  If the most lenient of circles is a prison environment, then I think it's safe to say they all are.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 octobre 2011 - 10:48 .

[Wittand25]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually there is plenty of evidence that under almost all circumstances they can NOT.  The ones that can either reside in very liberal circles (Fereldan) or are members of extremely important (read noble) families, or both.  The Chantry takes away children from their parents and then wonders why the resulting mages wind up psychologically impaired.....

Idiots.

-Polaris

You call Arianni, the poor elven woman living in the Alienage, important or the Kirkwall circle liberal?

The thruth is it is possible to visit, but since Thedas is a medivial setting it is impossible to do so for everyone who does not live extremly close to a circle or is rich enough so that they do not need to work for a living.

The stigma of having a mage in the family of course keeps many people away, but there is no law that would prohibit parents visiting their mage child.

Feynriel and his mother are friends (or at least can call) on noble connections, i.e. Lord (Amel) Hawke.  My point stands.

-Polaris

Feynriel leaves the circle one way or another before Hawke becomes important at the end of act two, and one can see how the name Amel did well for Gamlen in all those years.
So much for your point.

Can you please show me a source that states that mages are prohibited from contacting their families (other than the abomination that thinks blowing up churches is a step in the right direction and is therefore not exactly the most trustworthy witness)?

Modifié par Wittand25, 25 octobre 2011 - 10:53 .

[IanPolaris]

Wittand25 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually there is plenty of evidence that under almost all circumstances they can NOT.  The ones that can either reside in very liberal circles (Fereldan) or are members of extremely important (read noble) families, or both.  The Chantry takes away children from their parents and then wonders why the resulting mages wind up psychologically impaired.....

Idiots.

-Polaris

You call Arianni, the poor elven woman living in the Alienage, important or the Kirkwall circle liberal?

The thruth is it is possible to visit, but since Thedas is a medivial setting it is impossible to do so for everyone who does not live extremly close to a circle or is rich enough so that they do not need to work for a living.

The stigma of having a mage in the family of course keeps many people away, but there is no law that would prohibit parents visiting their mage child.

Feynriel and his mother are friends (or at least can call) on noble connections, i.e. Lord (Amel) Hawke.  My point stands.

-Polaris

Feynriel leaves the circle one way or another before Hawke becomes important at the end of act two, and one can see how the name Amel did well for Gamlen in all those years.
So much for your point.

Nope.  My points stands.  When Bethany is taken to the circle, Cullen is told to handle Hawke and his mother with kid gloves and not charge them with hiding an apostate (normally a death sentance).  Why?  They are nobility.  That's before they become important btw.  Even in Act I, Hawke is a mover and shaker, and his family name is important (important enough for the Viscount to notice even before Hawke returns from the deep roads).

My point stands.  Also the game evidence is clear.  Mages by and large are taken away from their families at a young age never to be seen again.  Exceptional cases do not consitude valid evidence against that point.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

That is not why they aren't sentanced to death... The reason they aren't is because Bethany turned herself in. And Arianni is most certainly not noble, and is not on a friendly basis with Hawke, or any other noble. Matter of fact is, family is allowed contact, long distances and difficulty of travel, simply makes it so that contact is difficult. Especially when a kid often end up in a Circle in another country than their native. However, letters are always allowed, so contact IS permitted, no matter how many lies you try and spin about it.

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

This entire argument is a non-sequitor (latin:  does not follow).  No one argues that untrained mages are dangerous, and no one argues that some sort of training for magically talented children should be mandatory.  No one.

NO ONE.

However, taking children away from their families never to be seen again is not only damaging but unspeakably cruel (and is considered by some to be a form of genocide in of itself for what it's worth).  Just because mages should all have to be trained does NOT mean they have to be taken away from their families.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  As for circles being abusive prison environments, yes I think I can make that argument.  By all accounts, the Fereldan circle is the most liberal in Thedas, yet it is directly called a prison more than once.  If the most lenient of circles is a prison environment, then I think it's safe to say they all are.

No, it isn't a non-sequitor. You keep bringing up that mages are taken from their families at a young age. I gave you the reason for it. Magic presents itself at a young age. If magic didn't present uptil a mage turned 45, then mages would be taken away at 45.

Mages can see their families again. It happens. Saying that only wealthy or influential families are allowed such is pure speculation on your part.

You have no evidence that the Ferelden Circle is the most liberal in Thedas. Once again, we have information about three whole Circles and have only directly seen two. We know that Kirkwall is considered bad by most standards and that is pretty much it. The Ferelden Circle is a prison in the sense that mages aren't allowed to leave without permission. That doesn't mean it is a terrible environment.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is not why they aren't sentanced to death... The reason they aren't is because Bethany turned herself in. And Arianni is most certainly not noble, and is not on a friendly basis with Hawke, or any other noble. Matter of fact is, family is allowed contact, long distances and difficulty of travel, simply makes it so that contact is difficult. Especially when a kid often end up in a Circle in another country than their native. However, letters are always allowed, so contact IS permitted, no matter how many lies you try and spin about it.

Actually Cullen TELLS you then Bethany is taken that the Viscount went to bat for the Hawke family and this is why no charges are being levied.  Review your game lore.

As for letters and such, no they aren't always allowed.  Just ask poor Karl.  So once again you are wrong...and in general contact is either restricted or not allowed at all (usually not allowed).  The game makes that very clear.  As for Feynriel, he and his mother consider themselves good friends with Hawke and apparently even Meredith even as soon  as act one are very careful about ticking off Hawke who IS a noble (even in act one...he is Lord (Amel) Hawke.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

It is a non-sequiter by definition. Just because training from a young age is needed and should be mandatory does NOT imply that children need to be torn away from their parents.

Review basic logic.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  We are told many times that Fereldan is the most liberal circle there is.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 octobre 2011 - 11:03 .

[Wittand25]

IanPolaris wrote...
Nope.  My points stands.  When Bethany is taken to the circle, Cullen is told to handle Hawke and his mother with kid gloves and not charge them with hiding an apostate (normally a death sentance).  Why?  They are nobility.  That's before they become important btw.  Even in Act I, Hawke is a mover and shaker, and his family name is important (important enough for the Viscount to notice even before Hawke returns from the deep roads).

Can you please stop mixing your own convictions with the actual lore ?
Nowhere in both games, not a single time is harboring an apostate described or even hinted at as a crime punishable by death.

My point stands.  Also the game evidence is clear.  Mages by and large are taken away from their families at a young age never to be seen again.  Exceptional cases do not consitude valid evidence against that point.

-Polaris

You do not have evidence other than the testemony of a terrorist with both commitment problems and multiple-personality disorder.

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually Cullen TELLS you then Bethany is taken that the Viscount went to bat for the Hawke family and this is why no charges are being levied.  Review your game lore.

As for letters and such, no they aren't always allowed.  Just ask poor Karl.  So once again you are wrong...and in general contact is either restricted or not allowed at all (usually not allowed).  The game makes that very clear.  As for Feynriel, he and his mother consider themselves good friends with Hawke and apparently even Meredith even as soon  as act one are very careful about ticking off Hawke who IS a noble (even in act one...he is Lord (Amel) Hawke.

-Polaris

You mean Karl's letters to a known apostate?

And if the game makes it very clear that general contact is restricted or usually not allowed, I would assume you have actual instances to back up your claim?

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Wittand25 wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
Nope.  My points stands.  When Bethany is taken to the circle, Cullen is told to handle Hawke and his mother with kid gloves and not charge them with hiding an apostate (normally a death sentance).  Why?  They are nobility.  That's before they become important btw.  Even in Act I, Hawke is a mover and shaker, and his family name is important (important enough for the Viscount to notice even before Hawke returns from the deep roads).
[/quote]
Can you please stop mixing your own convictions with the actual lore ?
Nowhere in both games, not a single time is harboring an apostate described or even hinted at as a crime punishable by death.
[/quote]

In Act III, you find sanctioned Templar DEATH SQUADS that kill citizens for giving runaway apostates a meal let alone hiding them, so yes, in general hding an apostate is a death penalty offense.  Always has been.  For that matter being an apostate is a death penalty offense.

[quote]
My point stands.  Also the game evidence is clear.  Mages by and large are taken away from their families at a young age never to be seen again.  Exceptional cases do not consitude valid evidence against that point.

-Polaris[/quote]
You do not have evidence other than the testemony of a terrorist with both commitment problems and multiple-personality disorder.[/quote]

Anders isn't the only one that says this.  We are told that mages are in general not permitted contact with their families from multiple sources.

-Polaris

[Everwarden]

Wittand25 wrote...
You do not have evidence other than the testemony of a terrorist with both commitment problems and multiple-personality disorder.

While we're pointing out logical fallacies, this is the genetic fallacy.

"Hitler said the sky is blue, therefore it must not be blue."

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

You mean Karl's letters to a known apostate?

And if the game makes it very clear that general contact is restricted or usually not allowed, I would assume you have actual instances to back up your claim?

Well Wynne backs this up and Wynne is generally pretty positive about the tower.  We hear it pretty much every time it comes up.  With a FEW exceptions, once a child is taken by the Circle, their families do not see them ever again.

-Polari9s

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is not why they aren't sentanced to death... The reason they aren't is because Bethany turned herself in. And Arianni is most certainly not noble, and is not on a friendly basis with Hawke, or any other noble. Matter of fact is, family is allowed contact, long distances and difficulty of travel, simply makes it so that contact is difficult. Especially when a kid often end up in a Circle in another country than their native. However, letters are always allowed, so contact IS permitted, no matter how many lies you try and spin about it.

Actually Cullen TELLS you then Bethany is taken that the Viscount went to bat for the Hawke family and this is why no charges are being levied.  Review your game lore.

As for letters and such, no they aren't always allowed.  Just ask poor Karl.  So once again you are wrong...and in general contact is either restricted or not allowed at all (usually not allowed).  The game makes that very clear.  As for Feynriel, he and his mother consider themselves good friends with Hawke and apparently even Meredith even as soon  as act one are very careful about ticking off Hawke who IS a noble (even in act one...he is Lord (Amel) Hawke.

-Polaris

Cullen only says that if you aided the Viscount earlier in that act. Otherwise it is becasue Bethany turns herself in.

And was Karl, or was he not, allowed to send letters to Anders? Yes or no. Not all your other bull****, YES or NO. He was, and as rebellious as he was, he should probably have thought about the Templars reading his letters before posting them before he went and talked about escaping.... The Templars are not to blame for Karl being braindead even before he was tranquiled...

Bottom line: Contact is allowed. You are just angry that the Circles aren't as bad as you want to imagine them.

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually Cullen TELLS you then Bethany is taken that the Viscount went to bat for the Hawke family and this is why no charges are being levied.  Review your game lore.

As for letters and such, no they aren't always allowed.  Just ask poor Karl.  So once again you are wrong...and in general contact is either restricted or not allowed at all (usually not allowed).  The game makes that very clear.  As for Feynriel, he and his mother consider themselves good friends with Hawke and apparently even Meredith even as soon  as act one are very careful about ticking off Hawke who IS a noble (even in act one...he is Lord (Amel) Hawke.

-Polaris

You mean Karl's letters to a known apostate?

And if the game makes it very clear that general contact is restricted or usually not allowed, I would assume you have actual instances to back up your claim?

Actually Anders is not an Apostate.  Anders is a Grey Warden, albeit a rebel Grey Warden.  DG himself established that the Chantry does not have any control over mage Grey Wardens.  Anders is the Warden's problem.

-Polaris

[Wittand25]

Everwarden wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...
You do not have evidence other than the testemony of a terrorist with both commitment problems and multiple-personality disorder.

While we're pointing out logical fallacies, this is the genetic fallacy.

"Hitler said the sky is blue, therefore it must not be blue."

Actually it is not.
If someone claims to have proof by the testimony of a witness, the credibility and motivation of said witness is important.
That does not mean (and I did not claim) that the opposite is automatically true, though the content of the game suggests that this is the case.

Modifié par Wittand25, 25 octobre 2011 - 11:44 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is not why they aren't sentanced to death... The reason they aren't is because Bethany turned herself in. And Arianni is most certainly not noble, and is not on a friendly basis with Hawke, or any other noble. Matter of fact is, family is allowed contact, long distances and difficulty of travel, simply makes it so that contact is difficult. Especially when a kid often end up in a Circle in another country than their native. However, letters are always allowed, so contact IS permitted, no matter how many lies you try and spin about it.

Actually Cullen TELLS you then Bethany is taken that the Viscount went to bat for the Hawke family and this is why no charges are being levied.  Review your game lore.

As for letters and such, no they aren't always allowed.  Just ask poor Karl.  So once again you are wrong...and in general contact is either restricted or not allowed at all (usually not allowed).  The game makes that very clear.  As for Feynriel, he and his mother consider themselves good friends with Hawke and apparently even Meredith even as soon  as act one are very careful about ticking off Hawke who IS a noble (even in act one...he is Lord (Amel) Hawke.

-Polaris

Cullen only says that if you aided the Viscount earlier in that act. Otherwise it is becasue Bethany turns herself in.

And was Karl, or was he not, allowed to send letters to Anders? Yes or no. Not all your other bull****, YES or NO. He was, and as rebellious as he was, he should probably have thought about the Templars reading his letters before posting them before he went and talked about escaping.... The Templars are not to blame for Karl being braindead even before he was tranquiled...

Bottom line: Contact is allowed. You are just angry that the Circles aren't as bad as you want to imagine them.

Bottom Line:  In general contact is not allowed.  It is granted under specific circumstances to specific people as a priveledge.  Anders (and Karl) assumed the more liberal Fereldan standards and Karl was illegally made tranquil for that (a crime that the circle refused to punish).

So in general the circles are actually worse than what I've been saying, not better, and even the most liberal ones are called prisons even within the game.  It doesn't get clearer than that. 

-Polaris

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Well Wynne backs this up and Wynne is generally pretty positive about the tower.  We hear it pretty much every time it comes up.  With a FEW exceptions, once a child is taken by the Circle, their families do not see them ever again.

-Polari9s

Are you referring to Wynne's son? We've already gone over the fact that mages aren't allowed to keep their children. They aren't supposed to be having children in the first place. Circles are not nurseries. Her child was raised by the Chantry and, when it was discovered that he had magic, he was taken to the Circle in Orlais. I would imagine that Wynne doesn't do much traveling to Orlais.