118 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually Anders is not an Apostate.  Anders is a Grey Warden, albeit a rebel Grey Warden.  DG himself established that the Chantry does not have any control over mage Grey Wardens.  Anders is the Warden's problem.

-Polaris

He's a renegade Warden, yes. That would be why the templars don't actively hunt him down. He's still an apostate though. And the templars are fully justified in not wanting Circle mages to be cooresponding with apostates of any sort.

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually Anders is not an Apostate.  Anders is a Grey Warden, albeit a rebel Grey Warden.  DG himself established that the Chantry does not have any control over mage Grey Wardens.  Anders is the Warden's problem.

-Polaris

He's a renegade Warden, yes. That would be why the templars don't actively hunt him down. He's still an apostate though. And the templars are fully justified in not wanting Circle mages to be cooresponding with apostates of any sort.

No.  An apostate is an illegal mage outside the circle authority.  Anders is not an apostate.  He is not legally bound the the Chantry at all.  Grey Warden mages are a rare special case.  Anders is indeed a renegade and illegal, but the Chantry can't legally touch him.  He's the Grey Warden's responsibility and as such is NOT an apostate.

DG made it very clear that once you drink the blood and take the oath, the Chantry loses all legal control over you and Chantry rules no longer apply to Grey Warden Mages.

-Polaris

Edit:  Basically once you are a Grey Warden, a mage can not be an apostate no matter what certain Templars (Ryloc) would like to think.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 octobre 2011 - 11:19 .

[Wittand25]

IanPolaris wrote...
Bottom Line:  In general contact is not allowed.  It is granted under specific circumstances to specific people as a priveledge.  Anders (and Karl) assumed the more liberal Fereldan standards and Karl was illegally made tranquil for that (a crime that the circle refused to punish).

So in general the circles are actually worse than what I've been saying, not better, and even the most liberal ones are called prisons even within the game.  It doesn't get clearer than that. 

-Polaris

Anders and Karl never exchanged official letters. They smuggled them with the aid of a maid servant. And that was more because of the reciever and not because of the writer.

As far as Karl beeing made tranquil we never know why he was made so, but considering that Grace manages to avoid it under all possible circumstances I think that it is safe to assume that Karl did a bit more than just writing letters.

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

No.  An apostate is an illegal mage outside the circle authority.  Anders is not an apostate.  He is not legally bound the the Chantry at all.  Grey Warden mages are a rare special case.  Anders is indeed a renegade and illegal, but the Chantry can't legally touch him.  He's the Grey Warden's responsibility and as such is NOT an apostate.

DG made it very clear that once you drink the blood and take the oath, the Chantry loses all legal control over you and Chantry rules no longer apply to Grey Warden Mages.

-Polaris

Edit:  Basically once you are a Grey Warden, a mage can not be an apostate no matter what certain Templars (Ryloc) would like to think.

No. He is an apostate. All mages who are outside of the control of the Circle are apostates. That is what the word freakin' means within the context of the DA universe. Grey Warden mages are apostates. However, they are granted a reprieve from templar persecusion with the understanding that the Wardens themselves will do what needs to be done if the situation demands it. The templars cannot legally detain Anders or capture him and force him back into the Circle because he is a Warden. That makes him no less an apostate. He basically has diplomatic immunity. Its like in Lethal Weapon 2. The antagonist was still a criminal, but the cops couldn't do anything about it because of his immunity.

[IanPolaris]

Wittand25 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Bottom Line:  In general contact is not allowed.  It is granted under specific circumstances to specific people as a priveledge.  Anders (and Karl) assumed the more liberal Fereldan standards and Karl was illegally made tranquil for that (a crime that the circle refused to punish).

So in general the circles are actually worse than what I've been saying, not better, and even the most liberal ones are called prisons even within the game.  It doesn't get clearer than that. 

-Polaris

Anders and Karl never exchanged official letters. They smuggled them with the aid of a maid servant. And that was more because of the reciever and not because of the writer.

As far as Karl beeing made tranquil we never know why he was made so, but considering that Grace manages to avoid it under all possible circumstances I think that it is safe to assume that Karl did a bit more than just writing letters.

Or Grace manage to play meek.  The point is this: A Harrowed Mage can not be made tranquil. (At least not without the First Enchanter's OK, and I think it's a near certainty that Orsino wouldn't give Meredith the time of day let alone permission).  Even Alrik's own subordinates (you can find this letter if you loot the Templar LT before the battle ends) says that Tranquilling mages is ILLEGAL if they are alreedy harrowed.  What does the chantry do about it?  Nothing.

The fact that letters had to be smuggles backs my point.  Contact in general is not permitted.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Zanallen wrote...

No. He is an apostate. All mages who are outside of the control of the Circle are apostates. That is what the word freakin' means within the context of the DA universe. Grey Warden mages are apostates. However, they are granted a reprieve from templar persecusion with the understanding that the Wardens themselves will do what needs to be done if the situation demands it. The templars cannot legally detain Anders or capture him and force him back into the Circle because he is a Warden. That makes him no less an apostate. He basically has diplomatic immunity. Its like in Lethal Weapon 2. The antagonist was still a criminal, but the cops couldn't do anything about it because of his immunity.

No.  Apostate means an ILLEGAL mage outside of circle control.  Grey Warden mages aren't "given a reprieve".  They are explicitly not under Chantry jurisdiction anymore.  Period.  Templars have been killed by Grey Wardens to hammer that point home from time to time.  This is per DG not me.  Grey Warden mages are a rare special case. 

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Wittand25]

IanPolaris wrote...
Or Grace manage to play meek.  The point is this: A Harrowed Mage can not be made tranquil. (At least not without the First Enchanter's OK, and I think it's a near certainty that Orsino wouldn't give Meredith the time of day let alone permission).  Even Alrik's own subordinates (you can find this letter if you loot the Templar LT before the battle ends) says that Tranquilling mages is ILLEGAL if they are alreedy harrowed.  What does the chantry do about it?  Nothing.

The fact that letters had to be smuggles backs my point.  Contact in general is not permitted.

-Polaris

They had to smuggle the letters because Anders was in hiding. Karl was even capeable to enter the chantry which is quite far away from the circle, alone at night, or so Anders believed.

And if I recall the letter correctly the ritual was done without Meredith´s order or even knowledge in other words illegaly for several reasons.

Modifié par Wittand25, 25 octobre 2011 - 11:40 .

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

No.  Apostate means an ILLEGAL mage outside of circle control.  Grey Warden mages aren't "given a reprieve".  They are explicitly not under Chantry jurisdiction anymore.  Period.  Templars have been killed by Grey Wardens to hammer that point home from time to time.  This is per DG not me.  Grey Warden mages are a rare special case. 

-Polaris

No. It doesn't.

Per the codex: "whereas an apostate is merely any mage who does not fall under the auspices of the Circle of Magi (and therefore the Chantry)."

ANY mage who does not fall under the auspices of the Circle. Warden mages are apostates; however, due to their status as wardens they are not hunted by templars. This is because there is an understanding that the wardens themselves will take care of warden mages who go out of control.

God, debating with you is a pointless effort. Every freakin' conversation I have seen you get into always ends with "I'm right and you are wrong, no matter what".

[Wulfram]

IanPolaris wrote...

In Act III, you find sanctioned Templar DEATH SQUADS that kill citizens for giving runaway apostates a meal let alone hiding them, so yes, in general hding an apostate is a death penalty offense.  Always has been.  For that matter being an apostate is a death penalty offense.

Though likely sanctioned by Meredith, I doubt the Templar Death Squads were acting legally.  If they were, they wouldn't attack the Champion on sight

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually there is plenty of evidence that under almost all circumstances they can NOT.  The ones that can either reside in very liberal circles (Fereldan) or are members of extremely important (read noble) families, or both.  The Chantry takes away children from their parents and then wonders why the resulting mages wind up psychologically impaired.....

Idiots.

-Polaris

You call Arianni, the poor elven woman living in the Alienage, important or the Kirkwall circle liberal?

The thruth is it is possible to visit, but since Thedas is a medivial setting it is impossible to do so for everyone who does not live extremly close to a circle or is rich enough so that they do not need to work for a living.

The stigma of having a mage in the family of course keeps many people away, but there is no law that would prohibit parents visiting their mage child.

Feynriel and his mother are friends (or at least can call) on noble connections, i.e. Lord (Amel) Hawke.  My point stands.

-Polaris

Plus Thrask was sympathetic to Feynriel's dilemma and knew what Arianni was going through. It's likely he may have pulled some strings.

Ian is right. Had he not said it, I would've too. Noble families or mages in the more liberal circles are the only ones that receive contact with their families.

• Huon didn't see his wife Nyssa until he broke out 10 years after last seeing her, and he was insane at that point.
• Evelina didn't see her adopted children until she broke out, and the resulting fight with the Templars drove her to become an Abomination
• Ella's parents hadn't even been informed of where she was, and considering her parents welcomed her with open arms this was not due to her parents being the cause of the lack of information.

 And others.

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No.  Apostate means an ILLEGAL mage outside of circle control.  Grey Warden mages aren't "given a reprieve".  They are explicitly not under Chantry jurisdiction anymore.  Period.  Templars have been killed by Grey Wardens to hammer that point home from time to time.  This is per DG not me.  Grey Warden mages are a rare special case. 

-Polaris

No. It doesn't.

Per the codex: "whereas an apostate is merely any mage who does not fall under the auspices of the Circle of Magi (and therefore the Chantry)."

ANY mage who does not fall under the auspices of the Circle. Warden mages are apostates; however, due to their status as wardens they are not hunted by templars. This is because there is an understanding that the wardens themselves will take care of warden mages who go out of control.

God, debating with you is a pointless effort. Every freakin' conversation I have seen you get into always ends with "I'm right and you are wrong, no matter what".

Considering the Chantry sort of voided that concept by hunting Anders in both DA:O-A and the Anders short story -- which has incredibly absurd moments that don't jive right, but ignoring that I'll take it as canon -- I don't think it really matters anymore.

IIRC, the Chantry was pissed at the involvement of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden's political arena, so they seem to be moving against the Wardens now (see the Avernus quest in DAII). 

My personal speculation of what info we have, but it makes sense.
 

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Bottom Line:  In general contact is not allowed.  It is granted under specific circumstances to specific people as a priveledge.  Anders (and Karl) assumed the more liberal Fereldan standards and Karl was illegally made tranquil for that (a crime that the circle refused to punish).

So in general the circles are actually worse than what I've been saying, not better, and even the most liberal ones are called prisons even within the game.  It doesn't get clearer than that. 

-Polaris

Anders and Karl never exchanged official letters. They smuggled them with the aid of a maid servant. And that was more because of the reciever and not because of the writer.

As far as Karl beeing made tranquil we never know why he was made so, but considering that Grace manages to avoid it under all possible circumstances I think that it is safe to assume that Karl did a bit more than just writing letters.

Or Grace manage to play meek.  The point is this: A Harrowed Mage can not be made tranquil. (At least not without the First Enchanter's OK, and I think it's a near certainty that Orsino wouldn't give Meredith the time of day let alone permission).  Even Alrik's own subordinates (you can find this letter if you loot the Templar LT before the battle ends) says that Tranquilling mages is ILLEGAL if they are alreedy harrowed.  What does the chantry do about it?  Nothing.

The fact that letters had to be smuggles backs my point.  Contact in general is not permitted.

-Polaris

Actually, I'm thinking Meredith knew about the illegal tranquilizations but didn't do anything about it.

Ser Bardel,
I have told you a hundred times not to bother the knight-commander with your pathetic questions. She's a busy woman and has no time to nurse you through your crisis of conscience. You are under my command. If you take issues with my orders, you bring them to me, or I will see you stripped of your knighthood!
The mage Karl is dangerous and we must take steps to deal with him and any friends who are assisting his rebellion. I expect this done by next week. If I must see to it personally, I will also find out exactly why you failed to carry out your sacred duties.
The Maker has given us a divine task, Bardel. We cannot fail Him.
Ser Alrik

Note the bolded. I'm willing to bet that Bardel informed KC Meredith about the incredibly questionable orders to Tranquil mages and she didn't do anything to stop Alrik, and then Alrik chewed out Bardel.

I actually feel bad for killing Bardel. Poor guy. Another reasonably good Templar killed.

[Patchwork]

IIRC literacy isn't all that common (Queen Anora epilogue slide). It might be a case of nobles/the rich staying in contact with their mage children because they are the ones who can write or employ a scribe and can afford to send it wherever the circle is located.
The threat to loose the last tie to their family could be very effective. I could see the templars allowing contact for that reason alone.

DA2's quests via letters does put a dent in this theory though.

[LobselVith8]

Wittand25 wrote...

Anders and Karl never exchanged official letters. They smuggled them with the aid of a maid servant. And that was more because of the reciever and not because of the writer.

As far as Karl beeing made tranquil we never know why he was made so, but considering that Grace manages to avoid it under all possible circumstances I think that it is safe to assume that Karl did a bit more than just writing letters.

Considering that Karl was made tranquil by Ser Alrik, who has been illegally making mages tranquil against the law (which is clear from the conversations going on in the Gallows, and Alrik's threat to make Ella tranquil and rape her because she'll do anything he asks then), I doubt it.

[maxernst]

IanPolaris wrote...

It is a non-sequiter by definition. Just because training from a young age is needed and should be mandatory does NOT imply that children need to be torn away from their parents.

Review basic logic.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  We are told many times that Fereldan is the most liberal circle there is.

Except for the vast majority of mages, it does.  There are only something like 14 white chantry circles, so the total number of mages in all the white chantry nations must only be on the order of a few thousand.  So magic is a very rare talent, posessed by perhaps one person in a thousand.  Even if mages were completely free, most people (and therefore most mages) are going to be born in communities in which there are no other mages, let alone a mage school.  So most mage children would have to leave their families in order to train, and most families would not be in a position to relocate.  Not to mention the fact that untrained mages are potentially a danger to their families.

And if you're from a typical peasant family there's no need to forbid contact.  Your parents can't read and write, and can't afford to come visit.  Hence, families with money or going to be the only ones to maintain contact.

Modifié par maxernst, 25 octobre 2011 - 04:55 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The reason for the uprising is as of yet unknown. They will be explored in the next novel, but so far we only got a very factured look at the picture.

Varric addressed at the conclusion of the story that it transpired because Hawke showed the mages that the templars could be defied. And isn't the novel AU because Wynne and Shale are alive in this particular narrative?

kylecouch wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The reason for the uprising is as of yet unknown. They will be explored in the next novel, but so far we only got a very factured look at the picture.

Thank you...I'm tierd of Mage sympathizers assumeing the rebellion is because they all hate the Circle. The Circles and Templars all rebel for the same reason, which is not yet revealed. In case many Mage supporters forgot...The Council of mages met in Cumberland to decide weither or not to break away from the Chantry...they decided not to...Golly gee their so abused. And in case you all forgot...the original Anders even thought that was a terrible idea.

Wynne thought it was bad because she said the Chantry would murder the mages rather than see them free, and that's likely what Anders thought as well when he had that outburst in Amaranthine. However, we see that there are mages who want their freedom from the Chantry, and not simply the mages who allied with Uldred. Look at how a moderate like First Enchanter Irving responds if The Warden asks for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence - he profusely thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing them from their "shackles." The fact that the ruler of Ferelden agrees that the mages deserve their autonomy from the Chantry and its Order of Templars tells me that there are non-mages who disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles as well.

The point remains that there were enough mages who wanted to split from the Chantry that Wynne thought it was a serious possibility, and wanted Ines (who thought she must be desperate if she was turning to her for help, as she tells The Warden). If the mages discover that hundreds of Circle mages were wiped out for an act that none of them were responsible for, and Varric speicifcally points out that the Champion of Kirkwall shows them that the templars can be defied, is the novel supposed to contest this?

kylecouch wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

In case you forgot, the vote in Cumberland was very close and the only reason the mages didn't rebel then was because they thought the Chantry would commit genocide against them before they let that happened.  Wynne out and out says this and Anders agrees.  What Meredith proved is that the Templars and Chantry are willing to do genocide for the flimsiest of reasons with no accountability anyway so the circles have nothing left to lose.

-Polaris

And in case you forgot most of the Templars abandon her idea for RoA and save the mages that aren't useing Blood magic.

I recall Knight-Captain Cullen doing absolutely nothing to curb Meredith's act of genocide against hundreds of men, women, and children who were innocent of Anders' actions until Hawke, specifically, was being threatened by Knight-Commander Meredith (even if the Champion is killing every templar in his path). There's no indication that the Right of Annulment was abandoned when Cullen is only willing to extend mercy to three mages (out of hundreds), and Varric specifically references "many survivors" only when Hawke sides with and protects the mages from being slaughtered by Meredith's edict.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Other than Anders and Wynne? Commoners have great fear of mages, even when it is their own children.

Andrastians, specifically, because the Chantry preaches that magic is a 'curse' and teaches them to be intolerant of mages as part of their religious practice. That's why everyone from Knight-Commander Greagoir to Bethany thinks that magic is a curse. That's why non-Andrastian societies like the Chasind, the Avvar, the Dalish, and even the people in the Kingdom of Rivain hold different views of magic and mages.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Nope.  Lob can verify that I have it absolutely down correctly.

Which isn't surprising.

Sometimes you must wonder why we even bother...

I didn't realize you and Dave were the bastions of truth. I thought that you and Dave had an opinion about the Chantry controlled Circles that Ian and I disagreed on, and that the dichotomy between all of us was that we hold different points of view about the issue. Isn't that why The Warden can support or condemn the Chantry controlled Circles in Origins? Isn't that why Hawke can side with the mages or the templars in Dragon Age 2? The narrative invites the player to form an opinion and make a decision about whether they agree with what the Chantry does, or disagree with the system that has been in place for the mages for nearly a millennia. Ian and I don't agree with the Chantry controlled Circles, while you and Dave clearly do.

[megski]

I think a point that a lot of people have missed is that it would take A LOT for some one to remove Meredith, or change things within the templars of Kirkwall. Just like any army, if there is a high ranking tyrant, it is hell to get rid of them. Their word is worth far more than a lowly templar, say Sampson for example. There would have to be strong, concrete evidence and testimony of many people. People that are higher on the templar totem pole, some one in Cullen's position probably. Maybe some one in Orsino's and it would have to be organized by someone in Cullen or Orsino's position. This sort of thing did happen with Thrask, but he was killed by a bunch of psycho mages, saddly.

This is a speculation really, but I am drawing from real life I guess. A few months ago, an army commander was busted for being a crooked d-bag. If anyone spoke out against the tyranny or against his minions, they were mysteriously banished to a life of picking up cigarette butts at fort polk. Killing their career and spirits. One minion in particular. However, the lowly templars were lucky enough to get a new captain who did to his career what Hawke did to Alrik.

[TheRevanchist]

@ Lob...no the book is not AU...Every character death aside from Zeveran's in DAO was ret-coned as none canon. After all Leliana and Ander's are still alive aren't they?... besides read this...

http://dragonage.wik...on_Age:_Asunder

Cleary says the book focuses on the REAL reasons behind them breaking away. Varric is more then likely just assuming, since he has no knowlege of the events in this book.

After all for the most part the epilogue slides in DAO are just "rumors". As confirmed by the Devs.

Modifié par kylecouch, 25 octobre 2011 - 07:20 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The deaths aren't really retconned, but the book must establish a canon of its own, to be able to operate within the fictional universe.
The books does not overrule any playthrough from any of us. So if Wynne died in your playthrough, your canon dictates that she is dead, and the events of Asunder would have played out differently. But since publishing a book for each permutation of the plot of DA:O and DA2 is a bit too much to ask for, only one book is released with an established canon of its own.

[TheCreeper]

The book says it will change the fate of mages forever and it goes over HOW Mages and Templars broke away from the chantry. We know the reasons, and retconning DA2's ending to not really be the cause of the mage-templar war would be...an odd move to say the least.

[IanPolaris]

TheCreeper wrote...

The book says it will change the fate of mages forever and it goes over HOW Mages and Templars broke away from the chantry. We know the reasons, and retconning DA2's ending to not really be the cause of the mage-templar war would be...an odd move to say the least.

It would not just be an odd move but a foolish one.  DA2 already gets enough (deserved) rancor for disregarding and overriding player choice.  Completely retconning the DA2 ending would be the final insult.

-Polaris

[DKJaigen]

kylecouch wrote...

@ Lob...no the book is not AU...Every character death aside from Zeveran's in DAO was ret-coned as none canon. After all Leliana and Ander's are still alive aren't they?... besides read this...

http://dragonage.wik...on_Age:_Asunder

Cleary says the book focuses on the REAL reasons behind them breaking away. Varric is more then likely just assuming, since he has no knowlege of the events in this book.

After all for the most part the epilogue slides in DAO are just "rumors". As confirmed by the Devs.

I bet hunderd dollars that kirkwall is the real reason but not the only reason.

[megski]

IanPolaris wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

The book says it will change the fate of mages forever and it goes over HOW Mages and Templars broke away from the chantry. We know the reasons, and retconning DA2's ending to not really be the cause of the mage-templar war would be...an odd move to say the least.

It would not just be an odd move but a foolish one.  DA2 already gets enough (deserved) rancor for disregarding and overriding player choice.  Completely retconning the DA2 ending would be the final insult.

-Polaris

Wouldn't it though?