36 réponses à ce sujet

[mesmerizedish]

liesandpropaganda wrote...

But by turning in the evidence Shepard helps Tali to avoid exile. That was the whole point of being her advocate. I don't see it conflicting with Shepard's objective, only with Tali's personal interpretation of how it should go down.

It doesn't conflict with Shepard's objective, only with her duties in her role as Tali's advocate. She has to do what Tali tells her to. If she can't comply with Tali's demands, she needs to step aside and let another counselor be appointed.

Again, the assumption is that Quarian law is similar to American law. It felt much more informal to me, so these rules likely don't apply, but I like law, and I like thinking about law.

[Vegos]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's a conveniently simplistic justification.  They ask you what happened, not what Tali wants you to say.

Plus, if you saw it that way then there is no option, just do whatever Tali says.  Why even have the choices there to begin with?

It's my point of view, not a justification.

And I'd be grateful if you stopped telling me how I should be thinking.

Modifié par Vegos, 28 octobre 2011 - 03:20 .

[upsettingshorts]

Vegos wrote...

It's my point of view, not a justification.

And I'd be grateful if you stopped telling me how I should be thinking.

You know, people always accuse me of this when I'm just making a statement.

Maybe I should go back to putting a hundred qualifiers before everything I say.

[Radahldo]

I also would've liked the option to leave her on ship. She doesnt do her job later on and its obvious thats gonna happen. With that attitude, she can go stay with her aunt.

[Yezdigerd]

What people seem to miss that Tali's trial is merely a sideshow. The real issue is that Rael' Zorah, part of the quarian government, not merely brought active geth to the flotilla but actively constructed them. He endangered the fleet, violated his people's trust, broke the law. Yet some people don't think the Quarian people is entitled to know this?
Screwing the Quarians over to impress your girlfriend just doesn't strike me as paragon.

As for it's ok to lie if you aren't under oath, thats how renegade, a lawyer would reason. Someone who values the principle of truth, will honor the truth, because it is the truth, not hide behind legal excuses to cover their own ass.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 29 octobre 2011 - 01:40 .

[Vegos]

Someone who values the principle of truth, will honor the truth, because it is the truth, not hide behind legal excuses to cover their own ass.

I do not argue that. What I do argue is that this doesn't directly translate into paragon/renegade. It's not like paragons are always knights and renegades are always knaves. There's actually nothing inherently paragon or renegade in going to Alarei and looking for some clues, it's the logical thing to do either way.

But said truth may very well cause more harm than good, throwing the Fleet into a political disarray, in already troubled times. And that brings us to the suspiciously renegade looking "truth, whatever the cost". On the other hand, what's renegade about actually giving a damn about your crew's opinions and acting in their best interest?

Shep pretty much sums it up personally - "I did not represent one of your people, I represented one of mine." Between Tali who has been with Shepard through hell and back and a couple of squabbling admirals who can't decide what they want, it's not even a paragon/renegade choice. The only paragon/renegade choice is about how you decide to go about shutting said admirals up.

I think the problem we are havning here isn't as much what our options in the trial are, but what our interpretations of paragon/renegade are. I mean, I say a paragon will sometimes avoid the truth too.

Modifié par Vegos, 28 octobre 2011 - 02:36 .

[upsettingshorts]

Eh, I cheat myself out of having to care about Paragon/Renegade and don't really consider them when making decisions. 

If anything has been revealed in this conversation it's that people disagree on the following:
* Shepard's precise role(s) at the trial.  
* His responsibilities in general when it comes to either Tali or the Migrant Fleet
* The value and impact of revealing the truth in this situation

Since myself and others have actually been arguing in favor of the choice in the game that is labeled as "neutral" - it seems like Paragon/Renegade are just different ways of withholding the truth for someone or some group's perceived benefit.  If I recall correctly, and I may not be - it's been a while - the Paragon option deflects from the issue by propping up Tali, and the Renegade option deflects from the issue by shaming the Admirals.

I'd argue the benefit of maintaining the lie is selfish (Tali, so she won't feel bad) and/or unsustainable (Maintaining the harmony of an already fractured fleet). But that's just my interpretation.  The truth will, in my estimation - and in an unpredictable form and with unpredictable timing - always win out.  I'd rather remove the ambiguity and let the Quarians have all the facts, regardless of how sad it makes Tali, or how enraged it makes the warmongering Admirals. 

But then, I think Tali and the Quarians are for the most part wrong about everything so I tend to value the opinions of those I believe are the reasonable ones like Admiral Qwib-Qwib (and Kal-Reegar, though his opinions on the trial are mixed, he is absolutely against escalating war with the Geth) disproportionately higher than most other players.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 28 octobre 2011 - 05:46 .

[Esbatty]

Doing the "right thing" in the same playthrough made both Miranda and Tali hate my "do-gooder" Shepard. The Quarian people need to know that they are playing with fire once again in their efforts to rectify the last time they played with fire.

...

But my canon Sheploo totally impressed his bubble baby at her trial.

[CrazyGreggy]

You COULD reveal the truth, destroy Rael's reputation and break his daughter/your friend's heart out of a sense of honour. The trial itself is the real crime, however, so if you stick to the small picture cannot-tell-a-lie approach, you validate the political manouevres that put Tali in this situation in the first place. If the admirals were concerned for the fleet's safety they'd have simply destroyed the Alarei before even thinking about launching a trial while there were Geth STILL in charge of a ship right next to the fleet.

Taking the Paragon option exposes the bigger lie, shames the admirals in front of 17 million witnesses and gives you the option to plead with them not to go to war with the Reapers on the way. I've never been able to bring myself to play Renegade, too many of the responses seem gratuitously obnoxious rather than pragmatic, so no idea what that response looks like as I've not seen it on YouTube.

I have no issues telling the admirals I don't need evidence to trust in Tali's judgement/loyalty, they've put Shepard in that position and have to take the answer they're given. If you invalidate the trial by calling them out on their machinations, then you're no longer giving evidence, you're playing a metagame. The innocent verdict, in my opinion at least, is confirmation of that. If that then results in the Quarians not going to war, then the bigger pictures honour is saved as well.

edit - rogue apostrophe

Modifié par CrazyGreggy, 30 octobre 2011 - 11:30 .

[bleetman]

CrazyGreggy wrote...

I've never been able to bring myself to play Renegade, too many of the responses seem gratuitously obnoxious rather than pragmatic, so no idea what that response looks like as I've not seen it on YouTube.

Assuming you chatted with the Admiralty beforehand, it's essentially the same thing - 'this trial is a bunch of political rubbish, these are your real motivations' - only shoutier and more strongly worded. You also still have the option to advocate against war with the geth afterwards.

As far as the choices went, I can't say they bothered me particularly. You have evidence. You can either turn it over in the interests of proving Tali's innocence, or you can not and attempt to do so via other means. It might've been an issue if Tali was actually responsible in some way, but since she apparently isn't it's kind of a moot point to me.

Winning the trial entirely with talk-jitsu that I unlocked by punching mercenaries bugs me far more, but that's a seperate issue.