34 réponses à ce sujet

[d1sciple]

if we're talking characters now then that's something completely different, Wrex the great Krogan savior, Garrus the self styled 'sword of Vengeance', Me is full of great characters but romancing them is something else.

Miri is a cypher herself and one of the weaker characters, though her cypher is integral to the story as it's the external embodiment of sheps own internal enlightening.

Liara and Tali have some of the best stories of all and like Wrex and Garrus are not just cyphers but great characters capable of propelling the story on their own.

now romancing them becomes something different.
Liara ignores shep when he turns up, she's completely obsessed with this personal mission that has ties to your death/rebirth but instead of celebrating that he's back and she 'won' she ignores him. shep could of helped her(in fact he does anyway) but she wouldn't leave, shep wasn't worth it. **** yeah i'd gun her down for that, especially if she was my LI in ME1. i don't deal well with jealousy well.

Tali is something else. there's never hint of any connection during ME1 except for one of a young girl learning to trust shep. she's always portrayed as innocent, no matter what she's done she's always dealt with it 'better' than the others. no negative reactions, no acting out etc. just the portrayal of an innocent girl trying to find herself.
then due to her fathers status she's given command of a bunch of troops and sent on a bunch of missions, none of which seem to affect her personality at all and all of the past changes when she meets shep again.
she has the best reunion story of all and we finally see something more than just an innocent girl but regardless it's still creepy. like teacher on student creepy, and that's why i can't stand her romance, it's almost incestuous.

Jacks is rough, way too much real emotion there. an awesome addition to the story but still too much for me. always feels like taking advantage, much like with Tali.

so yeah, Miri is easy, screwed up but confident and mature(outwardly anyways). she's a woman, not been interfered with romantically and yeah she's got daddy issues and ego issues but that's manageable. doesn't make me feel gross, as opposed to ****ing Jack or Tali, not enough showers in the galaxy for that.

Modifié par d1sciple, 27 octobre 2011 - 05:03 .

[BentOrgy]

I guess it just proves that there are different opinions in the world; because I for one could never legitimize romancing a character with no depth, or qualities I could relate to/ empathize with.

I still think your exaggerating Tali's "Immaturity," like you're desperately trying to make her sound like a baby sister or something. And to me, Jack's attitude, and the breaking thereof, is far more rewarding than "Mind f*cking" a snotty Australian princess.

You can also argue, quite easily, that Tali's apparent lack of interest was influenced by her position on board the Normandy, in other words: a young newcomer alien with her own racial obligations to deal with, interacting (Probably for the first time.) with humans on such a scale, and more than likely, feeling that Shepard wouldn't be interested in her in the first place. Although its obvious that Bioware didn't believe at the time she would become such a fan favorite. Have you watched her romance scene before the Suicide Mission? She talks briefly about how she never thought that Shep would ever see her beyond her mask, as something more than a crew member.

And its never even once implied that Tali gained control over her troops through her father, again, you're just shooting off at the mouth. "None of which seem to affect her personality?" Please, try rereading the messages she sent to the Flotilla in Lair, the loss of those under her greatly upset her. So its like I said earlier; just because a character doesn't become a merc stereotype like Zaeed, or a sociopath like Jack, doesn't mean anything. She's a natural optimist, and so she secretly buries her emotions under a veil of "Woohoo! Life is awesome." Which is a common defense mechanism for a lot of people.

As for Liara, before Lair of the Shadow Broker, I felt very much the same way you evidently feel now, but afterwards, I was very happy that I had romanced her in ME1. (Admittedly, I kept my romance in ME2, and so turned her down.) But even though I was severely irritated with Bioware's handling of their initial reunion, I still couldn't shoot someone up because of jealousy, due in small part to the fact that I think it just sounds ridiculous. Makes me wonder what else just "Sets you off." If you should be mad at anyone one/thing, it should be Bioware's (mis)care of the situation, not the character herself. Like the meeting with the VS on Horizon, gag. It was lazy writing, not the character's fault.

[Raven4030]

I really like Tali, but I can see where disciple is coming from. I mean, with Tali the writers really were shooting for 'innocence', I believe it has been mentioned her design was supposed to reminiscent of the virgin Mary, and some people find that as a real turn off.

However, as far as the comment regarding 'it was lazy writing, not the character's fault': the character doesn't exist without the writing. While we might not like it, if a character says or does something in game it stands as that character's actions in the game universe unless there is an official retcon. So, unless there is a retcon, it stands that the VS is a total d*****.

Modifié par Raven4030, 27 octobre 2011 - 06:20 .

[BentOrgy]

While its true that the character's personality is dictated by the writer(s), that doesn't mean that a particular scene couldn't have been handled better, and still adhered to that character's beliefs, personality, etc. Many fans loathe the Horizon reunion, and you hear several "Yeah, they totally should have done this." Cutting through all the garbage and wishful thinking, you'll find quite a few ideas that still make sense for the character, but offer a more realistic and heartfelt scene than what we were given,

Its like the alternate worlds theory, where, instead of choosing water, you chose coffee. (Provided you like both.) Both choices are what "You would do," but are different. The VS, who followed Shepard so faithfully during ME1, could/should have acted differently as well. Just because an official source wrote it, doesn't mean it was the only option, or the only one that they felt was right. Sometimes things like lack of time and or inspiration (Or energy.) can influence the process.

EDIT: To summarize, yes the VS (And to an extent, Liara.) acted like asses, but they could have very easily been written to not be, by extending the scenes, adding more context, options in general etc. It was Bioware's choice to not take the time to do so. And its not like that's the only reason why I called them lazy. (E-mails? Really, the list goes on.)

Modifié par BentOrgy, 27 octobre 2011 - 07:25 .

[d1sciple]

i kinda defend the VS reunion from a writing standpoint. it's weak as ****** but anything more could of potentially derailed the entire story of ME2. it's easy to blind the hero by sense of justice, mission, principals etc. but that's hard when your LI/good friends busts some awakening on your dumb ass. next thing sheps giving TIM the finger and story over.

as for Tali, still nothing. she didn't have to change into Zaeed, i can't stand his character or any type of over the top battle hardened soldier but she doesn't harden up at all. the comparison i draw with Kal is that he's not an over the top hardass but a completely believable battle hardened soldier. kind but serious at the same time. Tali didn't have enough going on personally.
even though i believe her loyalty mission was the best written it still didn't give her much more depth and she ended up back in the place of 'little sister', definitely not potential lover.

as for her position in the Floatilla i can't see these people giving someone just returned from their pilgrimage such a high leadership position. it's clear that politically she has huge connections and as for past events, not only is she very vocal about telling you the Floatilla doesn't give a **** about the galaxy and won't care if they save it but the Admiralty basically say the same thing, and it's not sheps speech about those events that save her it's the fact that he defends her at all, and a bit more politiking.
therefore all they've got to go on when looking to place her when she returns is political pull as her past actions are disregarded.

[BentOrgy]

Or, they could have actually written something compelling, and integrated it into the story, but whatever. Like having the VS abducted by the collectors, to make Shep's need to save the colonists even more important to him/her, and having the reunion on the Normandy after saving them at the end of the game. A quick "I'll explain everything as soon as I can, but for now, just trust me, we've made it this far." And maybe even the option to have them as a squad member again during the Suicide mission after being rescued. (Like Liara in Shadow Broker.) If only to have them depart again afterward.

I can think of a handful of characters off the top of my head, from various other stories (Ranging from Metal Gear to the Count of Monte Cristo.) that have seen their share of hells, but not become jaded at all really. But Tali is different, because she DID change. Her attitude is far more direct in ME2 than it was previously, her taking charge of Prazza on Freedom's Progress, among others, proves that she, like other characters in the series, has evolved. Perhaps more subtly than you would like, but she has. What would YOU have preferred? Her to kick, scream and shoot someone? That wouldn't conform with her character at all. She's reacted like she should have; like Tali.

And you have no idea when she was given command of her squad, it might very well have been a recent position, again, its been two years. Just as The VS has been promoted to Spectre in the years following Shep's death, a lot can, and HAS happened. Your supposition doesn't hold up at all, unless I'm missing something, which I'm sure I'm not.

No government, especially of a race of so few and fragile as the quarians, would allow someone to lead even a fraction of their people into hostile territory unless they had ample reason to believe they were capable.You said it yourself, the quarians as a whole don't care about galactic events, and again, as Tali has said, they don't choose favorites no matter what your lineage is. Due to these facts, the only logical conclusion is that they chose her because of her abilities.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 27 octobre 2011 - 11:23 .

[Ravellion]

Miranda, because she is the only one that actually flirts. The other characters almost flat out state that they are in love with you at some point or another (or you have to do that to them to advance the romance). That's not how you become romantically involved as an adult. Adults tend to be a bit more cautious in who they let close to their hearts, and flirting breaks these barriers down a bit. Tali especially initiates the romance in a way that I haven't encountered anymore since my 16th, and it creeps me out, because I don't associate that behaviour with an adult personality.

[Raven4030]

As for Tali being in charge of combat teams, here is my explanation:

1) Freedom's Progress was meant to be a low risk assignment. It's pretty obvious by the way her troops got mangled by the Heavy Mech that they aren't professional soldiers by any stretch of the imagination.

2) On Horizon she was head of the science team as opposed to the combat team. I would argue that it seems odd they'd send an engineer to answer a question related to data-gathering in astro-physics (maybe they needed her to build the equipment? I guess the Quarians would value the engineers more than the scientists and grant them more authority as opposed to the reverse in most other civilizations), but beyond that I see no reason why she wouldn't be selected.

3) Furthermore, she was a part of Shepard's team throughout the hunt for Saren and would probably be regarded as up to par with elite troops, so don't see any reason why she wouldn't be sent on high risk missions two years later.

[capn233]

She was sent to Haestrom to obtain electronic data, not to interpret it. Seems like an expert in electronics makes more sense than a physicist.

Modifié par capn233, 27 octobre 2011 - 09:47 .

[BentOrgy]

Ravellion wrote...

Miranda, because she is the only one that actually flirts. The other characters almost flat out state that they are in love with you at some point or another (or you have to do that to them to advance the romance). That's not how you become romantically involved as an adult. Adults tend to be a bit more cautious in who they let close to their hearts, and flirting breaks these barriers down a bit. Tali especially initiates the romance in a way that I haven't encountered anymore since my 16th, and it creeps me out, because I don't associate that behaviour with an adult personality.

Its true, in most healthy "Adult" relationships, there's that "Warming up" period, where both people get a feel for the other, learn about them (And sometimes, themselves.) and create a more solid relationship before jumping on top of one another. I guess the reason why that's not true in ME is because Bioware had more to focus on than just the romance alone, as much as I would have liked a more fleshed out relationship (Romantic and otherwise.) that's one of the few areas in storytelling where I can back off. Unless its a dating sim or visual novel, in which case, I thinks its obvious that slcking off there wouldn't be okay.

When you have to write a romance for ten charatcers (Ash, Kaidan, Liara, Tali, Jack, Miranda, Garrus, Thane, Jacob.... Kelly.) and have them all be equally compelling for different people, and craft a story worth actually listening to on top of that, it can be overwhelming. And for what its worth, most of the charatcers do flirt with Shep in some capacity, except for Jack, I think for obvious reasons.