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[Gervaise]

I was wondering if anywhere in the not yet published versus from the Chant of Light there is anything that actuall refers to people having particular roles by Divine Right?
Now nobles in Orlais understand that they are there by divine right and thus it is impossible for anyone to replace them because that would be against the Maker's decree.  Likewise you are stuck as a peasant because that is the way the Maker made you.
So playing through DA2 today in Act 3 I went to have a chat with Cullen and clicked on the "Who do you think Elthina will support?" and Cullen expressed the view that Elthina has to support the Templars because they have their authority over the mages by "divine right".  (I'd forgotten that he'd said this in previous games).  It got me thinking because he then goes on to say that he thinks Elthina is wrong for giving mages hope that the system can be changed.   Well, may be Elthina is just trying to pacify without any real sincerity, but what if she has been reflecting on the Chant and has realised (as I had long ago from the passages we have been given) that there is not actually anything in there that suggests mages should be locked up in towers and templars lord it over them.
It seems more than a coincidence to me that the Orlesian nobles and the Templars should have the same idea and the Chantry which supports this view was originally set up in Orlais. 
Then I started to think about the Tome of Koslan - what if his real intention wasn't what is currently being followed by the Qun by is someone else's interpretation of it?

To be honest if you took the moral values of the Chant of Light concerning the treatment of others and combined them with the Qun idea of everyone working for the common good and everyone's role having value, you actually have a pretty good basis for a fairer society.    So is the problem with these religions not the core beliefs but what those in charge have done with them?   (It would help if we did have a full text of both).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's possible but I think we need to know about about the Qun itself to know how the Qunari are interpreting it. I am curious if the Qun explicitly says to bind the saarebas or educate bas by invasion. So far all we know is that it likes mages to drowning men, Sten never went on to say if it goes into more detail on the issue.

[Big I]

Gervaise wrote...
To be honest if you took the moral values of the Chant of Light concerning the treatment of others and combined them with the Qun idea of everyone working for the common good and everyone's role having value, you actually have a pretty good basis for a fairer society. 

One of my main problems with the Chant is that the Chantry is editing it to support it's ulterior agendas. For instance, the Dales. The core figure of the Chant, Andraste, promised the elves a homeland in exchange for their support. This is essentially a divine command binding all Andrastians, as important to follow as the Commandments of the Maker. What does the Chantry do? It turns a political conflict between the Dales and Orlais into an Exalted March, wipes out the Dales and strikes the Canticles of Shartan from the Chant. They deliberately ignored Andraste's promise.


In DA:O during the Gauntlet we learn from the ghosts in it that Archon Hessarian's conversion was sincere and that Andraste's mother had prophetic visions of Andraste's life before dying. None of that's in the Chant because it conflicts with their views on the Imperial Chantry and the possibility of Andraste being a mage.

[Gervaise]

Yet it seems that no one who isn't a mage has ever questioned why there are so many contradictions in Chantry teaching. May be they have and were silenced but it would be nice if there was a reference to them somewhere. The nearest you get is that "Search for the True Prophet". Not many people knew about the Temple to Andraste in the mountains - it had become a legend. However, the statues in the woods to the south of Vigil's Keep were there for all to see. Someone particularly asks us to make a record of them - I live in hope that this individual will show up in future content proclaiming the true faith.

I'd also like the opportunity for my character to be able to say, "I follow Andraste and the Chant of Light, not the Chantry."

[DRTJR]

I wish we'd see Brother Burkel again.

[Herr Uhl]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

It turns a political conflict between the Dales and Orlais into an Exalted March, wipes out the Dales and strikes the Canticles of Shartan from the Chant.

Political conflict? Understatement of the year, the elves were burning Orlais, and they were approaching the seat of the chantry at a steady pace. I doubt the elves spared the priesthood either, so they were directly involved.

[Big I]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

It turns a political conflict between the Dales and Orlais into an Exalted March, wipes out the Dales and strikes the Canticles of Shartan from the Chant.

Political conflict? Understatement of the year, the elves were burning Orlais, and they were approaching the seat of the chantry at a steady pace. I doubt the elves spared the priesthood either, so they were directly involved.

But they did, the wiki  says that the elves took Montsimmard and sacked Val Royeaux, and despite that the Chantry survived. And lets not forget that the Chantry was already spreading propoganda against the Dales before the war.


But even if the "official" history of the war, with the elves as unjustified aggressors who sacrificed humans in horrific pagan rituals, was correct that still doesn't give the Chantry they authority to go against the will of their prophet. Call an Exalted March to save Orlais? Perhaps that's justified, but wiping out the Dales certainly isn't.

[TheRevanchist]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Gervaise wrote...
To be honest if you took the moral values of the Chant of Light concerning the treatment of others and combined them with the Qun idea of everyone working for the common good and everyone's role having value, you actually have a pretty good basis for a fairer society. 

One of my main problems with the Chant is that the Chantry is editing it to support it's ulterior agendas. For instance, the Dales. The core figure of the Chant, Andraste, promised the elves a homeland in exchange for their support. This is essentially a divine command binding all Andrastians, as important to follow as the Commandments of the Maker. What does the Chantry do? It turns a political conflict between the Dales and Orlais into an Exalted March, wipes out the Dales and strikes the Canticles of Shartan from the Chant. They deliberately ignored Andraste's promise.


In DA:O during the Gauntlet we learn from the ghosts in it that Archon Hessarian's conversion was sincere and that Andraste's mother had prophetic visions of Andraste's life before dying. None of that's in the Chant because it conflicts with their views on the Imperial Chantry and the possibility of Andraste being a mage.

No they didn't really ignore Andraste's promise. She said they could have a homeland, no one said they could never take it from them. Besides that...the Dales brought the Exaulted March upon themselves. They can claim to be victims of unfair human biased all they want, but they deliberately tempted the wrath of humans. They outright refused to help Thedas during the second Blight, they sat on their ass with their entire army just watching everyone getting slautered. The city of Monssimard, right NEXT to the Dales, was totaly destroid by Darkspawn while the whole elven army stood by and watched it happen. Then after the Blight was done and tensions between them rose, the Dales were the first to attack by invadeing Orlais and pushing well into the heartland of the empire. It was then and only then did Orlais declare an Exaulted March on the Dales.

I highly doubt even Andraste herself would let the elves keep their lands after crap like that...the elves are not victims of human opression, they brought it upon themselves by being selfish when the world needed help.  

[AlexXIV]

kylecouch wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Gervaise wrote...
To be honest if you took the moral values of the Chant of Light concerning the treatment of others and combined them with the Qun idea of everyone working for the common good and everyone's role having value, you actually have a pretty good basis for a fairer society. 

One of my main problems with the Chant is that the Chantry is editing it to support it's ulterior agendas. For instance, the Dales. The core figure of the Chant, Andraste, promised the elves a homeland in exchange for their support. This is essentially a divine command binding all Andrastians, as important to follow as the Commandments of the Maker. What does the Chantry do? It turns a political conflict between the Dales and Orlais into an Exalted March, wipes out the Dales and strikes the Canticles of Shartan from the Chant. They deliberately ignored Andraste's promise.


In DA:O during the Gauntlet we learn from the ghosts in it that Archon Hessarian's conversion was sincere and that Andraste's mother had prophetic visions of Andraste's life before dying. None of that's in the Chant because it conflicts with their views on the Imperial Chantry and the possibility of Andraste being a mage.

No they didn't really ignore Andraste's promise. She said they could have a homeland, no one said they could never take it from them. Besides that...the Dales brought the Exaulted March upon themselves. They can claim to be victims of unfair human biased all they want, but they deliberately tempted the wrath of humans. They outright refused to help Thedas during the second Blight, they sat on their ass with their entire army just watching everyone getting slautered. The city of Monssimard, right NEXT to the Dales, was totaly destroid by Darkspawn while the whole elven army stood by and watched it happen. Then after the Blight was done and tensions between them rose, the Dales were the first to attack by invadeing Orlais and pushing well into the heartland of the empire. It was then and only then did Orlais declare an Exaulted March on the Dales.

I highly doubt even Andraste herself would let the elves keep their lands after crap like that...the elves are not victims of human opression, they brought it upon themselves by being selfish when the world needed help.  

Tensions between elves and humans are far older. If you only take a small part out of it in which the elves attack then it is not really an unbiased account of the events. The Chantry always crossed lines when they felt they need to 'defend their faith'. I'll point to Orzammar and what happens if you help the Chantry Brother there. He gets killed and the Chantry think about starting an exalted march. I think templars and chantry priests went into the Dales to stir enough hatred that provoked the elves' reaction. After all if one of the two groups has imperialistical/colonialistical tendencies then it is the Chantry/Orlais, not the elves. The elves can at best be blamed for retribution.

[TheRevanchist]

AlexXIV wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Gervaise wrote...
To be honest if you took the moral values of the Chant of Light concerning the treatment of others and combined them with the Qun idea of everyone working for the common good and everyone's role having value, you actually have a pretty good basis for a fairer society. 

One of my main problems with the Chant is that the Chantry is editing it to support it's ulterior agendas. For instance, the Dales. The core figure of the Chant, Andraste, promised the elves a homeland in exchange for their support. This is essentially a divine command binding all Andrastians, as important to follow as the Commandments of the Maker. What does the Chantry do? It turns a political conflict between the Dales and Orlais into an Exalted March, wipes out the Dales and strikes the Canticles of Shartan from the Chant. They deliberately ignored Andraste's promise.


In DA:O during the Gauntlet we learn from the ghosts in it that Archon Hessarian's conversion was sincere and that Andraste's mother had prophetic visions of Andraste's life before dying. None of that's in the Chant because it conflicts with their views on the Imperial Chantry and the possibility of Andraste being a mage.

No they didn't really ignore Andraste's promise. She said they could have a homeland, no one said they could never take it from them. Besides that...the Dales brought the Exaulted March upon themselves. They can claim to be victims of unfair human biased all they want, but they deliberately tempted the wrath of humans. They outright refused to help Thedas during the second Blight, they sat on their ass with their entire army just watching everyone getting slautered. The city of Monssimard, right NEXT to the Dales, was totaly destroid by Darkspawn while the whole elven army stood by and watched it happen. Then after the Blight was done and tensions between them rose, the Dales were the first to attack by invadeing Orlais and pushing well into the heartland of the empire. It was then and only then did Orlais declare an Exaulted March on the Dales.

I highly doubt even Andraste herself would let the elves keep their lands after crap like that...the elves are not victims of human opression, they brought it upon themselves by being selfish when the world needed help.  

Tensions between elves and humans are far older. If you only take a small part out of it in which the elves attack then it is not really an unbiased account of the events. The Chantry always crossed lines when they felt they need to 'defend their faith'. I'll point to Orzammar and what happens if you help the Chantry Brother there. He gets killed and the Chantry think about starting an exalted march. I think templars and chantry priests went into the Dales to stir enough hatred that provoked the elves' reaction. After all if one of the two groups has imperialistical/colonialistical tendencies then it is the Chantry/Orlais, not the elves. The elves can at best be blamed for retribution.

Or it could simpley be the elves are so arrogant that they feel they owe humanity nothing since they were enslaved for one thousand years to the empire that everyone hates. And despite the fact this set of humans helped them become free they still think their rotten humans who dont deserve the help of the elves. Really the entire elven side boils down to "they were picking on us and we didnt do anything to them." Sorry mate but that just sounds like they refuse to take accountability for what they did.

[Lazy Jer]

Keep in mind that Knight-Captain Cullen does not have an unbiased opinion.  He has the opinion of someone who has suffered greatly at the hands of mages in the past.  Which is the problem with any sort of religion, the Chantry, the Qun, or anything else in-game that I missed by not playing DA:O.  People use the religious texts or the religious ideals and twist them as justification for taking actions that otherwise might seem questionable.

[TheRevanchist]

Perhaps...but Cullen clearly don't think they should all be purged from the world or slain at birth. He thinks that they need to be watched because their dangerous. And given his own personal experiences, he indeed has a point in that regard.

[Huntress]

kylecouch wrote...

Or it could simpley be the elves are so arrogant that they feel they owe humanity nothing since they were enslaved for one thousand years to the empire that everyone hates. And despite the fact this set of humans helped them become free they still think their rotten humans who dont deserve the help of the elves. Really the entire elven side boils down to "they were picking on us and we didnt do anything to them." Sorry mate but that just sounds like they refuse to take accountability for what they did.

And is true, the elves owe nothing to the humans. Humans too were slaves of tevinter mages and  their way of life and everyone who was not born with magic or in a  family in power was seen as a mere fly. And was owened by some "lord".

Humans and Andraste need it the elves to help with the tevinter mages, not just to free them but  because they were too few ( who believed in The Maker and not dragons), thats why Andraste recruit the elves with a  promise of  freedom  under the chantry rules..  this freedom lasted for few years until the chantry wanted to covert them and they refused.

Modifié par Huntress, 24 octobre 2011 - 06:27 .

[Huntress]

If you put the chantry dwarf in Orzammar and save the mages from the circle, the mages make a new circle inside Orzammar and the chantry start a new march because.. not way in hell the chantry is going to lose control over mages, not for a dwarf or for the maker himself. divine right.. my%^&.

[TheRevanchist]

Huntress wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Or it could simpley be the elves are so arrogant that they feel they owe humanity nothing since they were enslaved for one thousand years to the empire that everyone hates. And despite the fact this set of humans helped them become free they still think their rotten humans who dont deserve the help of the elves. Really the entire elven side boils down to "they were picking on us and we didnt do anything to them." Sorry mate but that just sounds like they refuse to take accountability for what they did.

And is true, the elves owe nothing to the humans. Humans too were slaves of tevinter mages and  their way of life and everyone who was not born with magic or in a  family in power was seen as a mere fly. And was owened by some "lord".

Humans and Andraste need it the elves to help with the tevinter mages, not just to free them but  because they were too few ( who believed in The Maker and not dragons), thats why Andraste recruit the elves with a  promise of  freedom  under the chantry rules..  this freedom lasted for few years until the chantry wanted to covert them and they refused.

Prove to me they wanted to force their conversion. There is no evidence of this, and regardless...theur refusal to help fight the Blight is a seriously black mark agaisnt them...the Blight is EVERYONES problem...not just a human problem. Elves are not innocent victims, pure and simple. And Andraste didn't NEED the elves...she already had a massive barbarian horde. Shartan CHOSE to join her cause because he belived in it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Most of the stories told by people in the game (such as Leliana or Paivel) say that at least part of the reason for the Exalted March on the Dales was the elves refused to allow any Chantries to be built and expelled all the missionaries.

Which side struck first was disputed.

[Gervaise]

I think an important factor that ought to be borne in mind is that the Chantry didn't just march in, take control and then leave a force in charge of the elves to keep the peace, insisting that they must adopt the faith. They forcibly evicted the entire nation, confined the survivors in squalid conditions within their own cities and then Orlais re-colonised the area with their own people. That sure looks like a land grab under the guise of a holy war to me.

Reckon that Celene had a similar thing planned for Kirkwall. It seemed a bit odd to me that the Divine was planning an Exalted March on a city that was under the direct control of her own Templar Knight Commander. It wasn't as though the majority of the population had suddenly turned to dragon worship. Kirkwall was meant to be the biggest concentration of Templars in the east, so if they couldn't keep control, obviously sending more Templars wouldn't be enough - so clearly Orlais would offer to make up the difference.

[TheRevanchist]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Most of the stories told by people in the game (such as Leliana or Paivel) say that at least part of the reason for the Exalted March on the Dales was the elves refused to allow any Chantries to be built and expelled all the missionaries.

Which side struck first was disputed.

Except theres nothing inherintly wrong with letting them in to do so. Priests alone could not force the elves to worship the Maker...however it would have been there as an option for those who did. Like the Dwarves for example...once a Chantry was placed there...many of them thought that idea was better then the worship of their ancestors. But apparently the Chantry marched Templar's into Orzammar and held the city hostage and forced them to convert.  

[TheRevanchist]

Gervaise wrote...

I think an important factor that ought to be borne in mind is that the Chantry didn't just march in, take control and then leave a force in charge of the elves to keep the peace, insisting that they must adopt the faith. They forcibly evicted the entire nation, confined the survivors in squalid conditions within their own cities and then Orlais re-colonised the area with their own people. That sure looks like a land grab under the guise of a holy war to me.

Reckon that Celene had a similar thing planned for Kirkwall. It seemed a bit odd to me that the Divine was planning an Exalted March on a city that was under the direct control of her own Templar Knight Commander. It wasn't as though the majority of the population had suddenly turned to dragon worship. Kirkwall was meant to be the biggest concentration of Templars in the east, so if they couldn't keep control, obviously sending more Templars wouldn't be enough - so clearly Orlais would offer to make up the difference.

The same argunment can be made about the Krogan and useing the Genophage. If actions were not taken...they would have regrouped and just attacked again...and again and again until they got revenge on the filthy humans for all the "horrible" things that have been done to them. Like giveing them land...how dare they do that. Asking them to help fight the Blight...how dare the humans do such a thing. Trying to establish the option of an alternate religion, damn those filthy humans and their opressive ways. We'll go and burn and pillage their cities and show them we don't stand for this treatment.

[AlexXIV]

kylecouch wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Most of the stories told by people in the game (such as Leliana or Paivel) say that at least part of the reason for the Exalted March on the Dales was the elves refused to allow any Chantries to be built and expelled all the missionaries.

Which side struck first was disputed.

Except theres nothing inherintly wrong with letting them in to do so. Priests alone could not force the elves to worship the Maker...however it would have been there as an option for those who did. Like the Dwarves for example...once a Chantry was placed there...many of them thought that idea was better then the worship of their ancestors. But apparently the Chantry marched Templar's into Orzammar and held the city hostage and forced them to convert.  

We know rl examples how serious religions take their 'missions' and what they would do to convert people. It's not a stretch. You ask for proof, I could do the same. We don't know, simple as that. I base my opinion on impressions in-game. Which puts the chantry on the side of the aggressors and the elves the victims. Of course you can assume the opposite is true, but I doubt you can make a stronger case to back it up than people who disagree.

If they let them in as 'guests' there is nothing wrong with it. Just if guests misbehave they get shown the exit. That's just like everywhere. We don't know what exactly happened, and just judged by the way the chantry and templars act in the present (DA:O/DA2) I don't need alot of imagination to say, well, they probably were not all that peaceful.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 24 octobre 2011 - 10:09 .

[TheRevanchist]

And it dont take that big of a leap of logic to realize the elves insistence they were 100% totaly innocent and were just being picked on by the mean evil humans is nothing but bull****.

[Wulfram]

kylecouch wrote...

Except theres nothing inherintly wrong with letting them in to do so.

There is when you believe that contact with humans shortens Elven lifespans considerably, as the Dalish do.

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 octobre 2011 - 10:14 .

[Big I]

kylecouch wrote...

The same argunment can be made about the Krogan and useing the Genophage. If actions were not taken...they would have regrouped and just attacked again...and again and again until they got revenge on the filthy humans for all the "horrible" things that have been done to them. Like giveing them land...how dare they do that. Asking them to help fight the Blight...how dare the humans do such a thing. Trying to establish the option of an alternate religion, damn those filthy humans and their opressive ways. We'll go and burn and pillage their cities and show them we don't stand for this treatment.

Dalish elves don't like humans. They're under no obligation to like humans. Not helping during the Second Blight is no different than what Orlais was planning to do at the end of DA:O (write Ferelden off as a lost cause and protect their own people). Nor were they under any obligations to let Chantry missionaries into their country.


As for the land they "gave" them (land they were obligated to give because Andraste promised it), after fighting in Tevinter the elves then had to walk across the entire continent to the Dales, without help from anyone. Very kind of the Andrastians.


If the elves attacked first, and did so without provocation, then Orlais and maybe even the Chantry as a whole had a justification to fight back. But to go from "defending Orlais" to "conquer the Dales, move all the elves into slums and remove all trace of Shartan from the Chant of Light" is a very big leap.


And I still say that eliminating the elven homeland constitutes a huge religious impropriety because it's existence was guaranteed by Andraste.

[AlexXIV]

kylecouch wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

I think an important factor that ought to be borne in mind is that the Chantry didn't just march in, take control and then leave a force in charge of the elves to keep the peace, insisting that they must adopt the faith. They forcibly evicted the entire nation, confined the survivors in squalid conditions within their own cities and then Orlais re-colonised the area with their own people. That sure looks like a land grab under the guise of a holy war to me.

Reckon that Celene had a similar thing planned for Kirkwall. It seemed a bit odd to me that the Divine was planning an Exalted March on a city that was under the direct control of her own Templar Knight Commander. It wasn't as though the majority of the population had suddenly turned to dragon worship. Kirkwall was meant to be the biggest concentration of Templars in the east, so if they couldn't keep control, obviously sending more Templars wouldn't be enough - so clearly Orlais would offer to make up the difference.

The same argunment can be made about the Krogan and useing the Genophage. If actions were not taken...they would have regrouped and just attacked again...and again and again until they got revenge on the filthy humans for all the "horrible" things that have been done to them. Like giveing them land...how dare they do that. Asking them to help fight the Blight...how dare the humans do such a thing. Trying to establish the option of an alternate religion, damn those filthy humans and their opressive ways. We'll go and burn and pillage their cities and show them we don't stand for this treatment.

Bleh why bring up Krogans, it's nothing like that. The elves had no reason to attack the humans, other than the humans being a threat to begin with. There is no record in elven history that they tried to conquer Thedas or some such. Whether the elves wanted to help with the Blight or not is no reason to attack them or force them into slavery. Hawke also didn't fight the Blight, instead he fled and let others deal with it. It is no coincidence that the Chantry is basically treating them like the Tevinter Empire would have. Take everything from them, make them 2nd class citizens or even 2nd class people.