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By Divine Right?


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#26
AlexXIV

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kylecouch wrote...

And it dont take that big of a leap of logic to realize the elves insistence they were 100% totaly innocent and were just being picked on by the mean evil humans is nothing but bull****.

See, nobody said that. You're just being unreasonable and defensive. I don't say the elves are innocent. They probably shouldn't have responded with war, but ... I can understand the elves if they thought a pre-emptive strike gives them an edge in a war that would have come anyway. As in ... if the elves hadn't attacked, the humans had. And then the elves would have been at disadvantage.

I don't know maybe you think they should have let the humans massacre them without fighting back so they look more the victims. But I can't honestly blame them for prefering to fight instead.

#27
TheRevanchist

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AlexXIV wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

I think an important factor that ought to be borne in mind is that the Chantry didn't just march in, take control and then leave a force in charge of the elves to keep the peace, insisting that they must adopt the faith. They forcibly evicted the entire nation, confined the survivors in squalid conditions within their own cities and then Orlais re-colonised the area with their own people. That sure looks like a land grab under the guise of a holy war to me.

Reckon that Celene had a similar thing planned for Kirkwall. It seemed a bit odd to me that the Divine was planning an Exalted March on a city that was under the direct control of her own Templar Knight Commander. It wasn't as though the majority of the population had suddenly turned to dragon worship. Kirkwall was meant to be the biggest concentration of Templars in the east, so if they couldn't keep control, obviously sending more Templars wouldn't be enough - so clearly Orlais would offer to make up the difference.



The same argunment can be made about the Krogan and useing the Genophage. If actions were not taken...they would have regrouped and just attacked again...and again and again until they got revenge on the filthy humans for all the "horrible" things that have been done to them. Like giveing them land...how dare they do that. Asking them to help fight the Blight...how dare the humans do such a thing. Trying to establish the option of an alternate religion, damn those filthy humans and their opressive ways. We'll go and burn and pillage their cities and show them we don't stand for this treatment.


Bleh why bring up Krogans, it's nothing like that. The elves had no reason to attack the humans, other than the humans being a threat to begin with. There is no record in elven history that they tried to conquer Thedas or some such. Whether the elves wanted to help with the Blight or not is no reason to attack them or force them into slavery. Hawke also didn't fight the Blight, instead he fled and let others deal with it. It is no coincidence that the Chantry is basically treating them like the Tevinter Empire would have. Take everything from them, make them 2nd class citizens or even 2nd class people.



Hawke ran from the Blight, and was one person...the Elven Army sat at the border and watched the Darkspawn kill thousands of people with no intention of helping. Orlais writeing off Ferelden is totaly different...as Orlais is the strongest country on Thedas, they could actually afford to stand on their own, and lets not forget Loghain telling Orlais to "F*** Off" once they got to the border with over 200 Wardens and two dozen divisions of calvery that was sent to HELP THEM. The Dales had no chance of defeating the Blight alone if the human nations were defeated...they helped no one, includeing themselves, by refuseing to help stop the Blight.

Modifié par kylecouch, 25 octobre 2011 - 12:09 .


#28
TheRevanchist

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AlexXIV wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

And it dont take that big of a leap of logic to realize the elves insistence they were 100% totaly innocent and were just being picked on by the mean evil humans is nothing but bull****.

See, nobody said that. You're just being unreasonable and defensive. I don't say the elves are innocent. They probably shouldn't have responded with war, but ... I can understand the elves if they thought a pre-emptive strike gives them an edge in a war that would have come anyway. As in ... if the elves hadn't attacked, the humans had. And then the elves would have been at disadvantage.

I don't know maybe you think they should have let the humans massacre them without fighting back so they look more the victims. But I can't honestly blame them for prefering to fight instead.


Except this is how they act...as if they never did ANYTHING wrong to humans EVER and are nothing but victims of human abuse, as if they did NOTHING to warrent an Exaulted March being declared upon them. "One wonders why we were not better prepared for the humans conquest of The Dales since that is what humans do." They just assume humans were always going to **** them over so why should they bother ever helping them with anything? Did they stop and think that...maybe if they helped out abit and contributed ANYTHING that maybe the humans would not have become angry with them? That if they didn't just automaticlly assume humans were going to destroy them one day and as a result horde their resources and man power just waiting for the day the vile humans would attack, that MAYBE their relations with humans wouldn't have been so bad? They were nothing but rude to humans after receiveing their lands. Turning away ANY attempts to co exsist with the rest of Thedas as a nation. Basiclly sticking a sign in the dirt at the border with the words "F*** Off" written on it.

I'm not saying the humans are blameless, they could have done much more to help relations as well. But to say the humans did it for no other reason then to force the Maker upon them and "enslave" them is absolutely moronic and does nothing except demonize humans and make elves look like poor defenseless victims of the vile humans and the religion they so violently force on every living thing.

You insist the elves owe humans nothing. Really... so fighting Tevinter all those years and freeing them from their shackles simpley makes it even? Even though the humans that freed them never done anything bad to them up to that point?  Oh the humans were horrible because they made the elves walk to The Dales. Really? thats what you consider human abuse? Considering the elves "F*** Off" attitude regarding anything relateing to humans they probably didn't want help from them. Can I say that for sure? Not at all...but I don't think it's a huge leap of logic.

#29
TheCreeper

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Frankly even if Dales was being dickish to humans I doubt it did much more than speed up when they were going to have an exalted march declared on them. The Chantry believes that they need to spread the chant of light to pretty much everywhere , having a pagan nation sitting in the middle of thedas kinda screws with that.

#30
Gervaise

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When Shartan helped Andraste there was no Chantry, just the prophet herself and the Chant of Light, the moral precepts of which Shartan and his followers probably had no problem with.  Now when Merrill and Sebastian are discussing their respective religions, it is Sebastian, chantry boy through and through, who suggests that the elves story about their gods abandoning them and the Chant of Light talking about the Maker doing the same may both be referring to the same divine force.   If Sebastian could see it this way, is it not conceivably possible that Andraste did the same?   So the elves felt perfectly entitled to set up their new nation on that basis.

Then along came the Chantry, a religion set up by the Emperor Drakon of Orlais, not Andraste herself and the elves say, no thank you, we'll stick to what we know.  Shortly after there comes a second blight which hits Orlais first and presumably in view of their alleged unwillingness to help did not affect the Dales at all, even though given its position, should have borne some of the brunt of the invasion.   If this was the case, would not the elves think that perhaps the Maker/elven gods did not approve of this new Chantry religion being promoted by a new human empire, whose symbol is a dragon, the symbol of the old gods of the Tevinter.    So then the elves continue to repulse any missionaries and are aggressive towards this new sacriligious empire, where both rulers and chantry hold their position "by divine right".   When the elves attacked the Orlesian cities, may be they thought they were on their own "Exalted March".   At the very least they probably thought that offense was the best form of defense against this new imperial threat.

So, no, the elves were probably not entirely innocent but since history is always written by the victors, the Orlesian/Chantry version of events is not to be trusted either.