384 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

I'm speaking of Duncan murdering Jory of course. There is no other term. People have said he acted in self defense, but that's not true. I don't know if the law in Ferelden permits the use of lethal force in self defense (many countries in our real world are very restrictive in this regard), but that's beyond the point anyway. The matter of the fact is that Duncan was not in a situation of self defense in the first place. Yes, Jory may have threatened him by drawing his weapon. But only after Duncan wanted to force him to drink a probably lethal cocktail. If anyone was acting in self defense at that moment, it was Jory himself. The aggressor has no right to defend himself against the resistance of his victim. He has to back down and stop his attempts to harm the other. Only if the other then continues to attack, might the initial aggressor gain a right to act in self defense.

The argument "Duncan did it for the greater good" holds not water either, I think. It was obvious enough that Jory, with his fears and concern for his family, wouldn't have made a good Warden anyway. He was certainly in no way crucial to have in the ranks. Maybe Duncan wanted to prevent him from spreading the secret about the Wardens, but in all context given, that secret doesn't seem to be that important or well kept anyway. It also remains unclear to me why no one should be able to change their minds about becoming a Warden. Do all who want out deserve death? Maybe so, if it would for some reason help in defeating the Dark Spawn, but all it does is remove people who might otherwise be useful to the struggle.

Anyone disagree?

(Yeah, I'm taking this a bit too seriously, but I was annoyed about that scene, also about everyone else, including Alistair, not caring in the least.)

[ReubenLiew]

They don't deserve death, of course they don't. Duncan probably didn't think so either.

But a Grey Warden's duty it far more important to them than laws, honor, pride or morals. At least in the minds of Grey Wardens.

[Dragosunsoar]

i didn't care for a knight he was a coward

[MFCell]

I guess you are missing the fact that the reason he gets killed is for knowing the secret of the Joining, and secondly for refusing to take the drink.



I imagine if he had just up and left before the Joining, it wouldn't be nearly the problem it was. However, to learn the secret of the Joining and THEN decide it was to high a risk, is not an option.

[Myzzrimm]

In the past, recruits have managed to kill senior grey wardens because they didn't want to drink this "deadly cocktail". Thus it was passed to take no chances. Furthermore, Jory struck first.

Modifié par Myzzrimm, 22 novembre 2009 - 06:06 .

[Akka le Vil]

I think that the Jory's case highlight the absurdity of keeping Grey Warden's Joining a secret.

[Obliterati]

I too found that scene a little jarring.



Perhaps they should have shown Jory swinging his sword wildly and being totally unreasonable, or something. But Duncan just walked up and stabed him...weird. Especially, as you say, we just listened to Duncan complain that the army was undermanned becuase Cailen wasn't waiting for reinforcements. Seems like a good fighter like Jory would have been handy, Warden or no...

[UbiquitousGrue]

I don't. Disagree, that is. I suppose he might have felt Jory would have let slip the truth about the Joining to other people, which might mean a lot less people willing to become Grey Wardens. But as presented, his reaction didn't make much sense.
I understand that the narrative requires that the PC more or less accept his/her lot and role as Grey Warden - otherwise the game'd pretty much go "and then Duncan killed you too, the end" - but I do wish there was more leeway in terms of how said PC feels about the whole thing and how NPCs *expect* you to feel. Pretty much every character you can discuss it with replies negatively if you suggest that seeing someone pointlessly murdered and then being asked (or forced, depending on your dialogue choices) to give up the rest of your life (and being lied to about the specifics) to become a Grey Warden is not the best thing that's ever happened to you. ;P

/rambling.

edit: bah, I always take too long typing. XP What everyone else said!

Modifié par UbiquitousGrue, 22 novembre 2009 - 06:11 .

[ReubenLiew]

Except that Jory swung first.

[Joie de Combat]

I think what we're meant to take away from this is that the Wardens, heroic though they are, are not the whitest of white hats. They exist to combat the darkspawn and defend against the Blight - and in order to do that, they are willing to conscript recruits against their wishes, making them give up any position or family ties that they had and forcing them to go through an initiation that will either kill them instantly or greatly reduce their lifespan, either thanks to the taint taking them over sometime down the road or because they may be called on to sacrifice their lives to kill an archdemon.



Jory's death was in order to keep this a secret, because if it were widely known that even the Joining could kill you, it'd be harder to get willing recruits and the Wardens would be required to conscript more unwilling people. Because as far as they know, theirs is the only way of stopping an archdemon, and if there are no Wardens, the world is screwed. That's why backing out of the Joining isn't permitted, and also why it's not common knowledge that a Warden has to die to kill the archdemon, as Riordan explains if you ask him about it.

[Suron]

Myzzrimm wrote...

In the past, recruits have managed to kill senior grey wardens because they didn't want to drink this "deadly cocktail". Thus it was passed to take no chances. Furthermore, Jory struck first.

did you watch the cutscene?  Jory did nothing of the sort..sure he drew his weapon but he did NOT even move forward towards Duncan until Duncan came at him with his dagger..

Jory was the one acting in self defense..not Duncan.  Liking Duncan's beard doesn't change FACTS about the whole cutscene...don't be blind.  Again. Jory did nothing of the sort.

[Dragosunsoar]

remember jory is level 3 and duncans an orange of course jory died quick

[Taerda]

The Grey Warden Order has its own laws that its Members are subject to - these are outside the law of the throne or the law of the church... once you become an initiate of the Wardens, you are now under their law.



Given that we as brand new recruits/Wardens do not know the full codex of law involved, to interfere at that point in time with the Order's senior Officer in Charge would not be wise. Perhaps Duncan would be brought up on charges within an Enclave or other Order event, but at this time, we are just too raw of recruits to know anything.



My character, being an Elf Mage who was the Apprentace(sp) to the Circle's Leader has seen sentencing of this nature being meted out before: Those that fail the Harrowing and those that practice Blood Magic being two scenarios that match up very well to what she sees happen here.



I think Jory is tragic and the fact that he got himself into this in the first place is ironic, but I have a feeling that even if he decided to drink the cocktail and survived, my character and him would not have gotten along. (She kept refering to him as a coward in the Wilds.)

[Dragosunsoar]

he should have just drinking the blood and died like devith

[Aldandil]

I don't think Jory would have gone on a murderous rampage either, so in that sense it wasn't self defense. However, I fail to see the need to make Duncan into a saint. He was following Grey Warden rules.



You don't have to like it, your character doesn't have to like it, but the Grey Wardens aren't nice people. They end Blights and kill Darkspawn. As for the rest, they can be as good or as bad as anyone else. Duncan seems like a nice guy, but he is a dedicated Grey Warden and does not try to avoid the rules set up by his order.

[Dragosunsoar]

duncan died a worse death then jory so there's your justice

[Suron]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Except that Jory swung first.

lol he swung first because Duncan was advancing on him with his dagger out with OBVIOUS intent on striking...I don't have the problem with this scene that the OP does..though I do think it's funny mr goody goody Alistair doesn't bat an eyelash at it....however it's idiotic to continue to defend this by saying Duncan was defending himself..as he obviously drew his dagger saying "there's no going back" telling Jory that it was drink or die...in all accounts Duncan was the aggressor..not Jory.

again..let's not be stupid

[Obliterati]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Except that Jory swung first.

Did he swing first?  I'll have to replay that scene, my memory's a little fuzzy, but I seem to recall Jory drawing first, but not making any threatening moves towards the Wardens...he was trying to back away, wasn't he?

[Lucy Glitter]

I think to understand it you have to have agree on the idea of keeping the Joining a secret. Think about it. If people knew about this dangerous ritual, there would never be an end to the controversy. The Grey Wardens may even be banished again.



Duncan had to do it. As sad as it was for poor Jory, it was a matter of circumstance.

[ReubenLiew]

Except that Jory drew his swrod first.

Who's being stupid now?

[Dragosunsoar]

a cool cutscene would be you refuse and duncan kills you then your journy is over thing pops up

[bjdbwea]

MFCell wrote...

I guess you are missing the fact that the reason he gets killed is for knowing the secret of the Joining, and secondly for refusing to take the drink.

I imagine if he had just up and left before the Joining, it wouldn't be nearly the problem it was. However, to learn the secret of the Joining and THEN decide it was to high a risk, is not an option.

So you don't think that secret would come out anyway? In BioWare's writing it might be possible to keep that secret for so long, but in reality it would not be. But in any case that still doesn't change the fact it was murder. Just because Duncan as a person or the Grey Wardens as a (semi) private organization think their secrets are important enough to kill for, doesn't change how this would have to be judged from a legal perspective, does it? And given that the Wardens were even banned from the lands until not long ago, I don't think there would be any laws giving them a license to kill anyone they deem necessary? Correct me if I'm wrong, I only know my lore from what's given in the game.

[Endurium]

It is a ritual, not dinner for two. Jory apparently complained about joining the Grey Wardens from the beginning ("I had to work hard to impress Duncan!") He had a wife and child and still pressed on, only deciding to back out once it was too late. I guess you haven't been part of any rituals; they aren't known for being flexible but they are known for being secretive. You make your decision prior to accepting, and that's that.



Grey Wardens don't need someone who'll back out when the going gets tough, and that's just what Jory did (he also tried in the Wilds). Unfortunately for him, he ignored all warnings, didn't do his homework on the Grey Wardens (they sacrifice family, title, and home to fight the Darkspawn - everyone knows that), and waited until the middle of the ritual to make a decision. As far as I'm concerned, all the blame rests on him. The guy is dense.



I don't recall having anyone but fellow Grey Wardens tell me I had to drink Darkspawn blood to gain an edge on them, that I could sense Darkspawn and they could sense me, and that I had perhaps 30 years left to live due due to the taint within me. (The game misuses the word "immune" by applying it to something I'm clearly not immune to. If I was truly immune I wouldn't go mad and die after 30 years or so. Resistant, yes, immune, no.)



I'm not going to defend what Duncan did to Jory, but neither can I excuse Jory for his stupidity.

[Obliterati]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

I think to understand it you have to have agree on the idea of keeping the Joining a secret. Think about it. If people knew about this dangerous ritual, there would never be an end to the controversy. The Grey Wardens may even be banished again.

Duncan had to do it. As sad as it was for poor Jory, it was a matter of circumstance.

Except that the Joining being a death sentence in apparently common knowledge, or at least, not particularly secret.

Anora (who is not, as far as I know, a Warden) talks at length about many of the dangerous aspects of the Joining, and nobody bats an eye.

[Suron]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Except that Jory drew his swrod first.
Who's being stupid now?

yah he DREW his sword..he did NOT attack..Duncan came at him and Jory defended himself because it was obvious Duncan wasn't COMING AT HIM WITH HIS DAGGER to cut him a ****ing slice of bread.

idiot