384 réponses à ce sujet

[LuPoM]

SonvarTheMighty wrote...

imported_beer wrote...

It *is* unfair. No one tells them you could die from the ritual until it is too late. No one tells them you have only a few years to live. The entire Grey Warden mythos is shrouded in a kind of glamorous mystery. Everyone seems to want to join them (as shown in the Noble origin) until they discover what it is all about and by then it is too late. You don't really make an *informed* choice. But hey.
 

If you go through dialogue options with Duncan after coming back from the Wilds you are told the ritual can be fatal and that's with Jory standing there. 

Exactly.. so why struggling about Jory? He KNEW that could be fatal, yet he went into the Wilds to collect the blood.. he stepped back in fear before drinking the blood, the words said by Duncan to calm him down didn't worked and he took his weapon, duty against fear.. and Duncan *had* to kill him.. it fits with the plot, with the story, with everything.. It's not good nor righteous but it's the truth about the Grey Wardens.. like somebody wrote before, they're not Paladins yet they fight the great evil for everyone, and that proves it.

[KalosCast]

I'm currently collecting stock footage and blurry, inconclusive evidence to put together a documentary bringing Duncan's crimes to light. Any donations to help the "Loose Sovereigns" documentary a reality will be appreciated.

[Saurel]

Drake Sigar wrote...

I keep hearing "Jory struck first", but only when Duncan drew a long knife and approached him. Jory was clearly trying to get as far away from the cup as possible. It seems to me that if Duncan just gave the guy a minute to think, reminded him of his duty and the law (Warden conscription rights), Jory might have come to his senses.

The scene was like a nerdy kid pulling out a baseball bat while Jason Vorhees starts to pull out his Machete.

[KalosCast]

Saurel wrote...

Drake Sigar wrote...

I keep hearing "Jory struck first", but only when Duncan drew a long knife and approached him. Jory was clearly trying to get as far away from the cup as possible. It seems to me that if Duncan just gave the guy a minute to think, reminded him of his duty and the law (Warden conscription rights), Jory might have come to his senses.

The scene was like a nerdy kid pulling out a baseball bat while Jason Vorhees starts to pull out his Machete.

If only Jory was a cute college girl... after bringing up a wife and family, you knew he had no chance. In fact, the only way he could have died faster is if he only had 2 weeks to retirement.

Modifié par KalosCast, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:31 .

[Saurel]

Really what the Grey Wardens should do in the future is get the potential recruits completely loaded and then offer up shots of a special concoction .



If people survive "yay!"

[Draguling]

I'd have killed him myself if I had the chance.

[Mork_ba]

I like it as it is, actually... Signifies a road with no return. Plus, plot-wise, it makes you unable to refuse(cause you've already seen that doing so will force you to reload were that an option )...



It's quite obvius it was no self-defence either (it was on Jory's side, but a failed one at that).

[Dark83]

Ulicus wrote...

He wasn't murdered, he was executed for desertion. Was it a "good" act on Duncan's part? No, but - contextually - it was the right one.

Hm. Actually, given the treatment of deserters in the army (locked in a cage to await execution, and they don't even remember to give you food or water), it was probably a cleaner way to go.

SonvarTheMighty wrote...

imported_beer wrote...

It
*is* unfair. No one tells them you could die from the ritual until it
is too late. No one tells them you have only a few years to live. The
entire Grey Warden mythos is shrouded in a kind of glamorous mystery.
Everyone seems to want to join them (as shown in the Noble origin)
until they discover what it is all about and by then it is too late.
You don't really make an *informed* choice. But hey.
 

If
you go through dialogue options with Duncan after coming back from the
Wilds you are told the ritual can be fatal and that's with Jory
standing there. 

In fact, Jory is excited/impatient to get it done, too.

Alocormin wrote...

Jory swung when Duncan approached him with an unsheathed knife. I just wanted to point that out.

Duncan pulled out his knife after Jory pulled out a sword and kinda gestured with it. I just wanted to point that out. When you advance on a guy stoically with a cup, and he pulls out three feet of sharpened steel, you kinda of want to defend yourself.

[Faerell Gustani]

Something that most of the "Jory only attacked after Duncan approached with the knife" arguments are missing:



In most medieval societies, drawing you blade is a sign that you ARE going to use it with killing intent. In fact, the act of drawing is considered an attack often times. It's not a matter of who stuck first, but a matter of who drew first. In this case, Jory did draw first.

[bjdbwea]

So, if someone backs you into a corner, approaching you with a glass full of poison, with the obvious intention of forcing it down your throat if you don't drink it willingly, what do you do if you happen to have a gun? Leave it holstered and accept your fate? I don't think so. The attacker in that situation was clearly Duncan, and Jory drawing his sword was in self defense. He wouldn't have attacked anyone otherwise.

[IronVanguard]

Dragosunsoar wrote...

duncan died a worse death then jory so there's your justice

Pfft.

Duncan died, at least, gloriously to overwelming odds after dealing a badass take down to an Ogre.

[orpheus333]

skiwolf7 wrote...

I don't think Duncan was a very good recruiter. It was obvious to anyone with half a brain that Jory wouldn't make a good grey warden. My guess is that Jory was invited to serve as the guy that dies in hopes that Daveth and the PC would make it through. Pretty cold, but that seems like Duncan.

Yet Duncan chose you...

Seems like a good recruiter to me concidering you stopped a blight within a year of its recognision, without aid or even much guidance.

Lets face it Alistair as a Grey Warden he was probably joined a week before you and knows diddle squat about what they really are.

Modifié par andyr1986, 24 novembre 2009 - 12:17 .

[marshalleck]

bjdbwea wrote...

So, if someone backs you into a corner, approaching you with a glass full of poison, with the obvious intention of forcing it down your throat if you don't drink it willingly, what do you do if you happen to have a gun? Leave it holstered and accept your fate? I don't think so. The attacker in that situation was clearly Duncan, and Jory drawing his sword was in self defense. He wouldn't have attacked anyone otherwise.

Except Duncan never forced Jory to be there. Jory went out of his way to gain Duncan's favor to take him on as a recruit; Duncan warned him repeatedly that there was no backing out. At the critical moment, Jory failed his test of character and doomed himself. The Wardens need stone cold killers, not people who go limp at the critical moment of action. It all comes down to the question of Jory being able to make the critical strike on an Archdemon that will result in the death of the demon and Jory himself. A critical failure to act in that situation could allow the soul of an Archdemon to escape and create another Blight.

Jory showed that ultimately he didn't have what it takes to be a Warden. He had a chance to back out. At that point he knew too much and couldn't be allowed to desert, for numerous reasons.

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 novembre 2009 - 12:22 .

[Walina]

Is there a point to argue on something which will never change ?

It's been 10 pages now (lol)

[Dark83]

To add onto marshalleck's point, every Grey Warden has taken that thing. If he was unwilling to drink potential death, then he would most likely be unwilling to take certain death and strike down the archdemon.

[gotlucky]

I see both sides of the arguments (I think). I completely agree with everyone saying it was wrong for Duncan to kill Jory. He threatened Jory's life, and Jory was defending himself. Those that say Jory drew his weapon first, well then Duncan could have just said "you are a coward, just walk away". Did he? Nope, and Duncan continued to threaten Jory.

Also, Duncan was never honest about the joining. Yes he did say one could die, but he never said it was random. It had nothing to do with skill or desire, it was just pure luck. I can understand why Jory would say "the hell with this".

I also don't care that Jory was deserting. Desertion is just another word for ending a contract, except that in this case the military doesn't like it so they threaten you with death. I don't care what you want to call it, but saying that you have the right to enslave someone to do your bidding is just wrong.



All that being said, in some ways its a great thing that Duncan did it, because it shows you that Duncan is not a pearly white man. I completely disagree with what he did and Karma got him, but from a story perspective it shows you that Duncan is no angel. I don't consider him a hero. He's more of an antihero.

[Gaspara]

I for one am shocked, SHOCKED to discover that bioware has obviously sliped moral ambiguity into a game that is suppose to be about spotless heroes and dark brooding villains.



Fortunately that is the only example in the entire game.

[Rugaru]

But Gotlucky you are missing out on the point that Jory signed up for death when he signed up, that the death that was offered him came in the form of a cup instead of darkspawn doesn't change that he signed up for it.



Again it goes back to how the archdemon is defeated, a warden has to take the last swing KNOWING that he is going to die when he does. It's not a chance it's not a maybe, the warden will die when he kills it. Jory balks on a chance that he could die, regardless of the fact that he signed up to die in the first place. If he can't even drink the warden juice because there is a chance of death or if he needs coddling into it then he is not fit, and therefore he gets the death he signed up for in the form of a dagger instead.

[Ulicus]

DeriusE wrote...

People seem to focus on the wrong part of the need for secrecy. Based on Anora's comments towards the end, it is fairly apparent that people do know that the Joining can be lethal.

This is very true. It's not even just Anora -- does anyone bat an eyelash when three of you leave and only one of you returns? No. Hell, the Tranquil even says words to the effect of, "Congratulations on passing the Joining".

[Krogan Face]

Ya it was a porely done cut scene, maybe if jory had have taken a couple swings and Duncan had to dodge them it would have made more scence....I actually think Duncan came of as a D-bag in that scene, he just totally owned Jory and then said im sorry with a strait face and his annoying pious voice, it made me dislike him even more so than i already did, lol. What a ******!

[marshalleck]

He can't let Jory leave because Jory knows the secret of the ritual. How could the Grey Wardens continue to function in their role of ending Blights if the common citizens knew what Wardens really are, what they really do? How could they continue to operate in Ferelden, or anywhere for that matter if everyone thinks they are Darkspawn? That's what Duncan had to protect, and why Jory couldn't be allowed to simply leave and refuse the Joining.

It can't be said enough. Grey Wardens are not paladins.

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 novembre 2009 - 01:36 .

[Saurel]

Krogan Face wrote...

Ya it was a porely done cut scene, maybe if jory had have taken a couple swings and Duncan had to dodge them it would have made more scence....I actually think Duncan came of as a D-bag in that scene, he just totally owned Jory and then said im sorry with a strait face and his annoying pious voice, it made me dislike him even more so than i already did, lol. What a ******!

Duncan really needs to work on his people skills

dark voice "There is no turning back "

I mean geeze i was scared of him

[MFCell]

Gaspara wrote...

I for one am shocked, SHOCKED to discover that bioware has obviously sliped moral ambiguity into a game that is suppose to be about spotless heroes and dark brooding villains.

Fortunately that is the only example in the entire game.

Here here.

I'm sure the perfect black and white nature of the rest of the main cast, plus the fact the game obviously lets you know that you should never, under any circumstances, sacrifice your perfectly clean and Heroic morale standing to stop the Blight, should do much to soothe most peoples dissent at this outstanding issue.

Duncan's treachery knows no bounds.  Loghain should take a lesson from him. :innocent:

[Stuffy38]

In the scene prior to the Joining, near Duncan's bonfire - Jory's the one who says "Let's have it done". This is after you learn that the joining can kill you. So you could say that within the next hour the three candidates would have been one of two things - a grey warden or a corpse.

Daveth had the right attitude and would have made a decent Warden apart from the whole being dead thing.

[Ariella]

gotlucky wrote...

Also, Duncan was never honest about the joining. Yes he did say one could die, but he never said it was random. It had nothing to do with skill or desire, it was just pure luck. I can understand why Jory would say "the hell with this".

Duncan was as honest as he could afford to people in a land where the Wardens had been gone for 200 or so years. Plus the idea of an uneducated common people knowing that the Joining involved drinking any blood at all, let alone darkspawn blood which is KNOWN to kill or worse. They'd be burned as witches for certain.

I also don't care that Jory was deserting. Desertion is just another word for ending a contract, except that in this case the military doesn't like it so they threaten you with death. I don't care what you want to call it, but saying that you have the right to enslave someone to do your bidding is just wrong.

Tell that to your comrades in arms who you walk away from on the battlefield. And even today, desertion in most militaries is enough to get you the death sentence if they catch you. So, calling this "severing a contract" is bull.

Jory had been told several times that this was the Point of No Return. Once you're recruited or conscripted your old life is over, and you are with the Wardens, period. Honestly, though it doesn't even come down to who drew first. It's what Jory SAYS before he's killed: "there is no glory in this." He wanted glory, which is why he wanted to be a Grey Warden, but that's not what the Grey Wardens are. If it takes a Grey Warden striking an archdemon alone, in the dark, without recognition of his achievement, that's what will be done, because it is ending the blight that is all, not the glory in it.

I'm surprised Jory survived his knight training, let alone was able to convince Duncan to recruit him. I know jack about the guy and could tell he was a flawed blade that was going to break from the moment one. Either Duncan was desperate and hoped that maybe Jory had hidden depths or he was desperate. Of the two, I'd rather had Daveth than Jory at my back, but I'm a pragmatic bitca.