384 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulicus]

To be honest, I'm upset that the cutscene forces your character to look dismayed at Jory's death.  I now interpret this reaction as, "No! I just bought him that armour!"

Seriously, though, my first reaction was: "Holy ****!" and, sure, at first I was like "That's totally out of line, what the hell Duncan!?"... then I took a few moments to think on it and decided, "hey, you know what... it had to be done. And Jory didn't care about his wife and kid next to winning glory on the battlefield, anyway".

Within a few hours I was sacrificing a mother to save her son, anyway, so I adapted quickly.

What I LOVE about this game is that there is no "morality meter". Just actions and their consequences. It makes every choice infinitely more interesting.

[marshalleck]

Next time strip Jory and Daveth of all their gear before the Joining. Changes the scene completely.

[Meldread]

Wow. Ten pages. I thought the cut scene was perfect, and I think people are over analyzing it. The death of Jory and Daveth during the Joining took place for a reason. Daveth died to show how dangerous it was to become a Grey Warden. Jory died to show there was no backing out, and to show that the Grey Wardens are not "good guys" in the commonly thought of sense. They do what needs to be done. No matter the cost. They exist to end the Blight.



If ending the Blight meant slaughtering a hundred innocent children in some evil ritual sacrifice they'd do it, and anyone who attempted to stand in their way, even other Grey Wardens would be killed. Whatever it takes to end the Blight.



Duncan told me that Grey Wardens do whatever is necessary, but I didn't really understand until the moment he killed Jory. Either you have what it takes or you don't. Jory didn't and wanted to run away; so Duncan killed him. That is a perfectly reasonable response. As others pointed out, if Jory was too much of a coward to risk a random death in the Joining, what chance did he have when he knew he'd face certain death when it came to killing the Archdemon? Zero. Duncan did what was necessary.



He's not a hero. He's not a villain. He's a Grey Warden.

[Dark83]

marshalleck wrote...

Next time strip Jory and Daveth of all their gear before the Joining. Changes the scene completely.

*snicker*
I gave Jory a big ass hammer too, but he has his own sword.

Modifié par Dark83, 24 novembre 2009 - 02:01 .

[Saurel]

Ariella wrote...


I'm surprised Jory survived his knight training, let alone was able to convince Duncan to recruit him. I know jack about the guy and could tell he was a flawed blade that was going to break from the moment one. Either Duncan was desperate and hoped that maybe Jory had hidden depths or he was desperate.

Or Jory is a guy who is very confident with combat prowess but feels completely out of control elsewise.

[MFCell]

A lot of people throw the words good and evil around.

In my mind this game is not a game of good and evil, ever. Your either a good cop, or a bad cop. Or somewhere in the middle.

A bad cop, when presented with a situation where he might have to kill a civilian with information that would stop him from taking down a huge criminal cartel, would always save his own ass, especially if he knew he was the only one who could take down the cartel.

As big of a deal as Alistair makes out of it, Loghain is really the best example of a perfect Gray Warden. No matter the cost, he will do what it takes to (save us from Orlais???...lul) stop the Blight.

Edit: I always saw Jory as the preverbial "Big Baby"...   It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt, right, Jory? Jory? ...Oh **** Duncan killed that S.O.B...

Modifié par MFCell, 24 novembre 2009 - 02:16 .

[gotlucky]

Ariella wrote...

gotlucky wrote...

Also, Duncan was never honest about the joining. Yes he did say one could die, but he never said it was random. It had nothing to do with skill or desire, it was just pure luck. I can understand why Jory would say "the hell with this".

Duncan was as honest as he could afford to people in a land where the Wardens had been gone for 200 or so years. Plus the idea of an uneducated common people knowing that the Joining involved drinking any blood at all, let alone darkspawn blood which is KNOWN to kill or worse. They'd be burned as witches for certain.

I also don't care that Jory was deserting. Desertion is just another word for ending a contract, except that in this case the military doesn't like it so they threaten you with death. I don't care what you want to call it, but saying that you have the right to enslave someone to do your bidding is just wrong.

Tell that to your comrades in arms who you walk away from on the battlefield. And even today, desertion in most militaries is enough to get you the death sentence if they catch you. So, calling this "severing a contract" is bull.

Jory had been told several times that this was the Point of No Return. Once you're recruited or conscripted your old life is over, and you are with the Wardens, period. Honestly, though it doesn't even come down to who drew first. It's what Jory SAYS before he's killed: "there is no glory in this." He wanted glory, which is why he wanted to be a Grey Warden, but that's not what the Grey Wardens are. If it takes a Grey Warden striking an archdemon alone, in the dark, without recognition of his achievement, that's what will be done, because it is ending the blight that is all, not the glory in it.

I'm surprised Jory survived his knight training, let alone was able to convince Duncan to recruit him. I know jack about the guy and could tell he was a flawed blade that was going to break from the moment one. Either Duncan was desperate and hoped that maybe Jory had hidden depths or he was desperate. Of the two, I'd rather had Daveth than Jory at my back, but I'm a pragmatic bitca.

What I say also stands for modern times.  I'm going to try to make my point but I also want to be a little vague (I really do not think this is the place for politics).  We used to have conscription in America - more commonly known as "the draft".  It was morally wrong.  It doesn't matter whether the wars it was used for were justified, what matters is people were enslaved (more commonly referred to as conscripted) into fighting.  It is one's own choice whether or not they join the military, not whatever political faction is in power.
If someone does not want to fight in a war, fire them.  Tell them to gtfo and never come back, it is their own choice what they do with themselves.  Now, it's a real **** move to desert in the field of battle, just like it's a **** move to be a waiter at a restaurant and be a no call no show...just the consequences in war are much more serious than in life as a civilian.
And the thing is Jory didn't desert in the field of battle.  He had already shown himself prone to being scared but an apt fighter nonetheless.  He decided Russian Roulette was not the way he wanted to join a secret organization.  He had already shown himself able to risk his life, just not in a game of chance.

Also, in response to saying that referring to calling desertion "severing contract" is bull....You might want to try a real argument on that one.  Just because there is a law saying it can be punished by death.  Well, the law says a lotta things people disagree with.  There's a reason why politics is one of the things you don't bring up with people, and that's because people disagree with many current laws.  And don't forget how different the laws are between the states in America, nevermind America's and the rest of the world's.  The laws vary so much from country to country that to just blindly say "well the law says such and such so I'm right"...well try a more reasoned argument please.

[marshalleck]

Your failure is trying to view a dark medieval fantasy RPG through a filter of modern values

Better to ask yourself: how would someone from 10th century western Europe view Duncan? What would happen to an order of knights accused of partaking in satanic ritual?

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 novembre 2009 - 03:18 .

[gotlucky]

Couldar wrote...

But Gotlucky you are missing out on the point that Jory signed up for death when he signed up, that the death that was offered him came in the form of a cup instead of darkspawn doesn't change that he signed up for it.

Again it goes back to how the archdemon is defeated, a warden has to take the last swing KNOWING that he is going to die when he does. It's not a chance it's not a maybe, the warden will die when he kills it. Jory balks on a chance that he could die, regardless of the fact that he signed up to die in the first place. If he can't even drink the warden juice because there is a chance of death or if he needs coddling into it then he is not fit, and therefore he gets the death he signed up for in the form of a dagger instead.

The difference is that the cup is Russian Roulette while sacrificing oneself to kill the archdemon would be viewed as heroic.  I can see why with the knowledge Jory has at that time in the game that Jory would just say screw it.  It's already pretty clear that Jory can and will risk his life (even if he has to be reassured in the forest), he just won't chance his life on a cup of poison.

I also still stand by my position that regardless of whether or not Jory is a coward, it is still his right to decline playing Russian Roulette.

I still enjoyed that scene a bit.  But only because I don't happen to view Duncan as a good guy.  It just reveals to us that he's an ass.

[Karl45]

The maximum punishment for desertion in time of war for the US army is death(though its very rare). I would think the Grey Wardens would be more extreme(plus they are in a medieval setting) so it makes sense.



Also; Jory swung first, no matter how gingerly, its still a giant sword.

[TuringPoint]

Karl45 wrote...
Also; Jory swung first, no matter how gingerly, its still a giant sword.

Duncan was coming at him with an unsheathed knife.  Jory wasn't advancing on Duncan.  Duncan needed Jory to do something under threat of death, so he advanced on Jory, and Jory defended himself.

[Meldread]

I don't think killing Jory makes Duncan an ass. It shows him to be what he is: a hardcore dedicated Grey Warden. Duncan clearly doesn't enjoy killing Jory. He doesn't want Jory to die. Duncan is an honorable individual, in a manner of speaking, and wouldn't go around killing people unless he felt it was necessary or part of his duty as a Grey Warden.



Really, I don't see what Duncan could have or should have done differently. It's clear that you can live through the Joining - Alister and Duncan having gone through it and lived prove that - but it's also clear that you can die - Daveth proves that. How thirsty do you feel after watching someone you had just gotten to know, maybe even befriend, drop dead instantly from drinking that stuff? Are you lining up to be next?



What would have happened if Duncan allowed Jory to walk away? Would you still have been inclined to take a chance drinking the same stuff that just killed Daveth? Most sane people wouldn't... but the Joining is necessary as we later find out, because without it the Archdemon can't be slain. If Jory walks then your PC would or could most likely walk away with him. That means Duncan loses all three recruits, and he -knows- there is an Archdemon out there and a Blight even if only a few others believe him.



Duncan did what was -necessary-. You had three options: Drink and join Daveth, Refuse and join Jory, or Drink and join the Grey Wardens. Two options led to certain death, and the third gave a slim hope you'd make it out alive. Maybe Duncan is an ass, I suppose he can be viewed that way, but at the end of the day Duncan views his actions as necessary... which clearly outlines the type of individual Grey Wardens are: people who do what is necessary. They're willing to do bad things if it means it'll stop the Blight, and throughout the entire game you're forced to make choices some of which aren't all that great or heroic. That's why it's Dark Fantasy.



The entire cut scene in my mind puts action to the words Duncan speaks to you about the Grey Wardens doing what is needed, no matter the cost.

[Karl45]

Alocormin wrote...

Karl45 wrote...
Also; Jory swung first, no matter how gingerly, its still a giant sword.

Duncan was coming at him with an unsheathed knife.  Jory wasn't advancing on Duncan.  Duncan needed Jory to do something under threat of death, so he advanced on Jory, and Jory defended himself.

Duncan was walking towards him with a chalice of blood actually, He didn't unsheath his sword until Jory did. Were expecting Duncan to back off when Jory took out his sword? "There is no going back"

[gotlucky]

Meldread wrote...

Duncan did what was -necessary-. You had three options: Drink and join Daveth, Refuse and join Jory, or Drink and join the Grey Wardens. Two options led to certain death, and the third gave a slim hope you'd make it out alive. Maybe Duncan is an ass, I suppose he can be viewed that way, but at the end of the day Duncan views his actions as necessary... which clearly outlines the type of individual Grey Wardens are: people who do what is necessary. They're willing to do bad things if it means it'll stop the Blight, and throughout the entire game you're forced to make choices some of which aren't all that great or heroic. That's why it's Dark Fantasy.

The entire cut scene in my mind puts action to the words Duncan speaks to you about the Grey Wardens doing what is needed, no matter the cost.

On this you are right.  I'm saying that Duncan is an ass who did the wrong thing (though he viewed it as the right thing).  He did what he did because to him the ends justify the means.  That makes it a better game, and Duncan is still an ass.

[MassEffect762]

Of course not, he was protecting their dirty little secret.



It's one of the very first signs if not the first of just how "dark" this game is.



I thought "damn thats messed up kid, wife and all".



I blame Duncan for allowing him to try-out, as for killing him that was unfortunate but understandable to an extent.

[marshalleck]

gotlucky wrote...

On this you are right.  I'm saying that Duncan is an ass who did the wrong thing (though he viewed it as the right thing).  He did what he did because to him the ends justify the means.  That makes it a better game, and Duncan is still an ass.

Well, he got the player character join which lead to an end of the Blight. So I'd say it was justifiable and the right course of action, all things considered.

[MassEffect762]

Jory was just plot fodder, no sensible man would go out and recruit a man clearly valuing his family above service knowing full well what could happen.



In this the Warden failed.

[marshalleck]

Nah, Jory deserved to be murdered for being unable to fend off a guy wielding a cup and a dagger while he himself was brandishing a giant two-hand sword. Law of the jungle and all that.

[Karl45]

MassEffect762 wrote...

Jory was just plot fodder, no sensible man would go out and recruit a man clearly valuing his family above service knowing full well what could happen.

In this the Warden failed.

He volunteered

[MassEffect762]

Is that a stated fact?



If so a leader(duncan) should be aware of his choices, he bares the final say and the responsibility that comes with it.



I still find him at fault with allowing Jory to join volunteer or not.

[Karl45]

MassEffect762 wrote...

Is that a stated fact?

If so a leader(duncan) should be aware of his choices, he bares the final say and the responsibility that comes with it.

I still find him at fault with allowing Jory to join volunteer or not.

Yes if you talked to Jory he tells you.

I don't think Duncan was in position to turn away volunteers, especially since he was forced to conscript in some cases, but he also can't let people just walk away after they've gone through the process.

I think Jory bares the responibility for his own choices. Most people in times of war won't care about your family, I'm sure a lot of the Grey Wardens had families. Jory was the one who wasn't sensible, he wasn't fully aware of all the dangers that came with the Grey Wardens, but he definitely knew he could die. If he cared so much of his family he shouldn't have made the attempt to join at all.

[cpip]

Duncan is a fanatic. Every so often the conversations with him edge in that direction and you realize that this is a man whose existence has turned to a single, solitary purpose: defeating the Darkspawn and ending the Blight.



However, a fanatic is exactly what is necessary to stop the Blight.



When the question is survival, morality can be considered to go out the window.

[Mithrundir]

MFCell wrote...

I guess you are missing the fact that the reason he gets killed is for knowing the secret of the Joining, and secondly for refusing to take the drink.

I imagine if he had just up and left before the Joining, it wouldn't be nearly the problem it was. However, to learn the secret of the Joining and THEN decide it was to high a risk, is not an option.

This and it is in no way pointed out that Grey Wardens are "good guys" so they are present in the fight against the blight and have enlisting at will rights, but as shown in many scenarios they are in fact bound to no laws and therefore can be seen taking advantage of that.

[Obliterati]

So, I stated a new game and replayed the whole scene. I'm convinced now that this whole controversy has been caused by bad writing/editing on BioWare's part.
First, after getting the vials and documents, Jory is gung ho about the ritual, saying "I agree, let's have it done". Then, literally 5 seconds later, he starts freaking out, saying "The more I hear about this ritual the less I like it"
WTF?
Also, when you watch the stabby scene, and look at the PC's and Alistair's actions and reactions, and Duncan's words after the fact, I think it's clear that it was supposed to clearly show Jory going ape-**** crazy, and Duncan just defending himself. But perhaps from some animation stumbles, or poorly designed storyboarding, or whatever, that just didn't come through clearly.
I'm convinced the scene was supposed to demonstrate Jory going nuts. Nothing else makes any sense in the context of the game. Yeah yeah, grim-n-gritty, whatever. Moral ambiguity is fine and dandy...but crude, pointless stupidity is out of character for Duncan, and not in keeping with the storyline.


tl;dr -  Duncan just looks bad in that scene because of some clumsy writing/animating/editing. Jory went bonkers, Duncan was defending himself, Alistair and the PC. The end.

[Dark83]

Note that after all his efforts, Duncan only ends up with the PC, Daveth, and Jory. Of those, only two are good recruits, and only one of those two survived.



He can't exactly be super picky, and he can't (because of Ferelden politics) just recruit willy nilly either.