384 réponses à ce sujet

[Radahldo]

I think people are having difficulty perceiving a sword as a dangerous weapon. It's better to equate that with an assualt rifle, and Duncans dagger as an pistol. The assualt is more dangerous, but the pistol at that range being wielded by someone who is not playing around will definitely end you. Drawing the weapon at all is not the correct wy to deal with your fear. Too many people are saying otherwise;  you don't draw weapons on people who are not actively trying to destroy you, but Jory draws it at duncan.

In my opinion, this scene was an accomplishment. It moreso has Jory act out the fear of being subjugated to something capricious that he can't physically fight by someone physically stronger than him. My PC was feeling that at the time.

I don't think any amount of plotting could prevent this, as that perception of swords is not immediately malleable in the player; the characters all react, though. Thats why the PC is always distressed no matter what.

Modifié par Radahldo, 24 novembre 2009 - 05:08 .

[Meldread]

I think it's more than people just not perceiving the sword as a dangerous weapon, some people just don't want to view Duncan as maybe not being morally upstanding. It seems out of character, because overall, he seems like a kind, honorable and courageous individual. You can almost envision Duncan as being some great hero or icon... but he's a Grey Warden personified in the flesh, and he does what is necessary not what is right.



I don't think Jory could have even turned away before the Joining. I think he was doomed the moment he volunteered. If the PC refuses to join the Grey Wardens when Duncan attempts to recruit him, then Duncan invokes the right of Conscription. He apologizes and does it all in his nice seeming way, the same "I'm sorry" way he stabs Jory, but in the end he makes it clear that the PC has no choice.



From Duncan's point of view there is a Blight, and someone he knows is going to stop it. It might be one of the three recruits he managed to find. He's correct in all of that. There are only a handful of Grey Wardens nearby, and after Ostigar there are only two. Had Duncan let Jory walk away, what would have been the logical response from the PC? Who would want to willingly drink Darkspawn blood knowing they could end up dead like Daveth?



Duncan's killing Jory and making it clear that there was no way out, is effectively what ended the Blight and saved the Kingdom. Had Jory turned and walked away, the PC might have followed. The entire game, from beginning to end, proves that Duncan's actions were necessary. People want to argue what Duncan did was bad, mean, cruel, heartless, evil, whatever.... of course it was. Duncan apologized as he stabbed him, but Duncan felt (and was correct in) believing that it was necessary. That doesn't make it "right" but that also doesn't make it any less necessary.



If to stop a Blight Duncan needed to bathe in the blood of a hundred virgins and eat a newborn baby, then that's exactly what he'd do. He'd slaughter each of those virgins himself, and roast the baby over a spit while taking his bath. He'd also feel no remorse in doing so, because in his mind he'd see: a hundred and one lives in exchange for the lives of every other person in the world. That's a small price to pay.

[TuringPoint]

Karl45 wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

Karl45 wrote...
Also; Jory swung first, no matter how gingerly, its still a giant sword.

Duncan was coming at him with an unsheathed knife.  Jory wasn't advancing on Duncan.  Duncan needed Jory to do something under threat of death, so he advanced on Jory, and Jory defended himself.

Duncan was walking towards him with a chalice of blood actually, He didn't unsheath his sword until Jory did. Were expecting Duncan to back off when Jory took out his sword? "There is no going back"

Did I say Jory hadn't unsheathed his weapon first?  In any case, it's not as if Duncan were simply defending himself.  He clearly had purpose in killing Jory.  Who struck first is a little beside the point - that's all I wanted to say

So basically, you're absolutely right.

Modifié par Alocormin, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:13 .

[Boeresmurf]

grey warden secret and existence has to be preserved.

and duncan is willing to do alot to maintain that.

Ser Jory hadnt what it takes to became a grey warden.... and he was to deep in to turn back.

[kormesios]

Boeresmurf wrote...

grey warden secret and existence has to be preserved.
and duncan is willing to do alot to maintain that.
Ser Jory hadnt what it takes to became a grey warden.... and he was to deep in to turn back.

I find the "secret" thing the weakest argument, by far.  Various strangers you meet perceive your taint; it seems unreasonable that various of the Wise don't know what's going on already.  It's just not wildly talked about.

A single cowardly knight is obviously not an existential problem for the Grey Wardens.

I am willing to buy the "execution of a deserter" argument, heck, I've even tried to sell it to others.  It can be justified, but it could also be condemned--my PC would certainly have let the guy run.

[Saurel]

kormesios wrote...


I am willing to buy the "execution of a deserter" argument, heck, I've even tried to sell it to others.  It can be justified, but it could also be condemned--my PC would certainly have let the guy run.

"Duncan you could have let me use my magic on him to knock him back , and then we could have hogtied him and force the taint down his mouth! Dammit Duncan, what were you thinking man?"

Thats what my pc would do 

[Faerell Gustani]

I think an important thing to note that many people are missing is that in most medieval societies, drawing one's blade is considered an attack or threat.



It's not a matter of who swung first. It's a matter of who drew first.

[Dark83]

kormesios wrote...

I find the "secret" thing the weakest argument, by far.  Various strangers you meet perceive your taint;

Out of curiosity, who? The only one I noticed is the crazy babbling Chinsid.

[Lughsan35]

Dark83 wrote...

kormesios wrote...

I find the "secret" thing the weakest argument, by far.  Various strangers you meet perceive your taint;

Out of curiosity, who? The only one I noticed is the crazy babbling Chinsid.

I think most of them are confusing the fact that everyone knows who you are because there are wanted posters everywhere, with everyone perceiving your taint.

I recall it being specifically mentioned by branka's love slave, flemeth and the mage at the top of the tower...

[lizardglenn]

When they are told at the fire by duncan there is no turning back now & that it could kill us
sir coward the custard  aka Jory says "I agree lets have it done"  then as soon he gets to the ritual area he reverts to  coward mode (that made me want to cut his throat in the wilds) bleating on about his wife with child & not wanting to go through with it
He wont even say yes if asked if he would die to defend his wife from darkspawn "I.." is his answer


the fact that duncan drew his daggar as he aproached an armed man who had pointed a huge sword at his chest when approached with a cup instead of just walking up to him  to be skewered or have the cup spilled
i take as a fair warning of drink or die

backing away or not the act of pointing a blade at someones chest is a threat in its own right
(it means stay back or i will kill you)
Jory did attack 1st whereby duncan parried then struck

hell i wish i had of got to drink before him just so i could have told him to be a man & drink then kill him for for refusing & pointing a weapon at me
with the  last thing he saw being me holding his still beating heart & saying i would visit his widow to "comfort" her

[Slayer299]

One thing I've noticed is that more than a few people here are more concerned about Duncan "murdering" Jory. Did he kill Jory in cold blood? No. Jory threatened him with his sword and was refusing to drong from the cup. All along I remember my PC hearing about GW's commitment, about what they give up to fight the Darkspawn.
This was not a fluffy, bunny trip to Easter-world in joining the GW's and Jory just didn't seem to understand that or what his commitment to the GW's meant.

As for the 'secret' being why Duncal killed Jory, I think that was secondary in Duncan's mind and only confirmed that Jory had to die. The GW's need people 100% commited, not a wimp who was going to turn and run at the first sign of trouble

Well Jory needed to go, even *if* he had taken the cup. He was an annoying and cowardly little piece that I woujldn't trust at my back for all of 30 seconds. In the Wilds all I heard from him was whinging about his wife and child, well why the Hell did he join them initially in the first place?

That's my thought on it.

[ComTrav]

Dark83 wrote...

kormesios wrote...

I find the "secret" thing the weakest argument, by far.  Various strangers you meet perceive your taint;

Out of curiosity, who? The only one I noticed is the crazy babbling Chinsid.

Ruck, the crazy dwarf in Ortan Thaig, perceives your taint, but that's because he himself has eaten darkspawn flesh and been tainted.

[Dark83]

Lughsan35 wrote...
I recall it being specifically mentioned by branka's love slave, flemeth and the mage at the top of the tower...

All I remember from that mage is that he says I'm strong, hm... <_<

[The Merciful]

I wonder have many pages people will manage to create by arguing about who drew first...

[Dauphin2]

If someone drew a sword on me, I wouldn't wait for them to lop my head off.

[velmyn]

Slayer299 wrote...

Well Jory needed to go, even *if* he had taken the cup. He was an annoying and cowardly little piece that I woujldn't trust at my back for all of 30 seconds. In the Wilds all I heard from him was whinging about his wife and child, well why the Hell did he join them initially in the first place?

Because he wants to be a hero without paying the price. He probably doesn't give a damn about the blight, all he cares about is the glamour associated with being a Grey Warden.

[Elanareon]

Please take note that Duncan is still holding the ****g cup while advancing and saying there is no turning back. Isn't it obvious that Duncan is still offering the ****g cup? But Jory still refuses! And the secret being kept there is not about the joining could kill you but its about having to drink the darkspawn blood. What would people think if they knew that the heroes are tainted as well? Damn i though this thing was pretty easy to understand. And please lets not talk about the law thing. I killed a freaking noble and got away. Lol

[Zenthar Aseth]

imported_beer wrote...

SonvarTheMighty wrote...

imported_beer wrote...

It *is* unfair. No one tells them you could die from the ritual until it is too late. No one tells them you have only a few years to live. The entire Grey Warden mythos is shrouded in a kind of glamorous mystery. Everyone seems to want to join them (as shown in the Noble origin) until they discover what it is all about and by then it is too late. You don't really make an *informed* choice. But hey.
 

If you go through dialogue options with Duncan after coming back from the Wilds you are told the ritual can be fatal and that's with Jory standing there.  

He says it *could* be fatal. He does not say it ALWAYS is. You either die now, or you are condemned to die later- but being a Grey Warden is a death sentence- something that he does not articulate. Besides, my PC didn't even ask him what happens in the ritual on my return- so in my playthrough Jory didn't even know the joining could be immediately fatal.

Being a Grey Warden is no more a death sentence than being a human, or an elf for that matter. Or a dwarf.

[mysticforce42]

1. Grey Wardens are a military organization created and maintained solely to prevent the end of the world.



2. Grey Wardens are given the Right of Conscription - they are allowed to conscript (ie, choice is irrelevant) kings or priests if they deem fit.



3. Grey Wardens govern themselves and follow their own rules which supersedes the laws of the land.



4. Jory disobeyed an order and intended to desert, then drew his weapon on his superior - these are all offenses that would warrant execution under military discipline.



There is no moral question here. Jory intended to desert and tried to facilitate it by force if necessary and died for his cowardice. That is all.

[Jibekn]

Suron wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Except that Jory drew his swrod first.
Who's being stupid now?

yah he DREW his sword..he did NOT attack..Duncan came at him and Jory defended himself because it was obvious Duncan wasn't COMING AT HIM WITH HIS DAGGER to cut him a ****ing slice of bread.

idiot

Yes, because in a modern analogy, a cop wont shoot you for just DRAWING a gun.. oh wait, yes they will put a bullet in your chest.

Moron

[Nial Black-Knee]

First off, I think people are missing the point. If your talking about a feudal/ middle age type society? Life is cheap. People don't revere life. They celebrate it's ending in many ways. The more outlandish and sensational the better. Public executions, public torture, these things are common in feudal societies. They are public spectacles that are attended and looked forward to by a big chunk of the populace. Conquering armies frequently executed hundreds sometimes thousands of enemy prisoners after battles, not to mention the raping and pillaging that went on if an army captured a city.

Now for some in game examples. Mages are removed from their homes, their lives strictly controled by the state. If they resist at all they are executed. Slavery is not looked down upon, and if not common, then at least accepted. The nobility is totaly uncontroled when it concerns those of lesser status in society. Executions of commoners are common for simple infractions. And you all are shocked by Duncan's summary execution of a deserter, that gave his pledge, and then tried to desert? I'm slightly amused by it all. It's kind of scary that people have no sense of history.

Modifié par Nial Black-Knee, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:09 .

[The Merciful]

Jibekn wrote...

Yes, because in a modern analogy, a cop wont shoot you for just DRAWING a gun.. oh wait, yes they will put a bullet in your chest.

Moron

So, what would said cop do, if someone armed advanced towards the cop with a cup of potentially lethal poison and a clear intent of forcing the cop to drink the substance?

Just curious.