384 réponses à ce sujet

[Obliterati]

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Now for some in game examples. Mages are removed from their homes, their lives strictly controled by the state. If they resist at all they are executed. Slavery is not looked down upon, and if not common, then at least accepted. The nobility is totaly uncontroled when it concerns those of lesser status in society. Executions of commoners are common for simple infractions. And you all are shocked by Duncan's summary execution of a deserter, that gave his pledge, and then tried to desert? I'm slightly amused by it all. It's kind of scary that people have no sense of history.

I must have been out sick the day they tought about wizards and dragons and elves and blood magic rituals in history class.

My bad, I guess.

[Radahldo]

I don't want to think of Jory as a cop.

[Nial Black-Knee]

Obliterati wrote...

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Now for some in game examples. Mages are removed from their homes, their lives strictly controled by the state. If they resist at all they are executed. Slavery is not looked down upon, and if not common, then at least accepted. The nobility is totaly uncontroled when it concerns those of lesser status in society. Executions of commoners are common for simple infractions. And you all are shocked by Duncan's summary execution of a deserter, that gave his pledge, and then tried to desert? I'm slightly amused by it all. It's kind of scary that people have no sense of history.

I must have been out sick the day they tought about wizards and dragons and elves and blood magic rituals in history class.

My bad, I guess.

I am soooo sorry. My bad that I didn't specify that I was refering to the top paragragh that described our own planets troubled history. I mistakenly thought it was self evident. *chuckle* Sorry to spoil your gotcha moment.

Modifié par Nial Black-Knee, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:33 .

[Obliterati]

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Obliterati wrote...

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Now for some in game examples. Mages are removed from their homes, their lives strictly controled by the state. If they resist at all they are executed. Slavery is not looked down upon, and if not common, then at least accepted. The nobility is totaly uncontroled when it concerns those of lesser status in society. Executions of commoners are common for simple infractions. And you all are shocked by Duncan's summary execution of a deserter, that gave his pledge, and then tried to desert? I'm slightly amused by it all. It's kind of scary that people have no sense of history.

I must have been out sick the day they tought about wizards and dragons and elves and blood magic rituals in history class.

My bad, I guess.

I am soooo sorry. My bad that I didn't specify that I was refering to the top paragragh that described our own planets troubled history. I mistakenly thought it was self evident. *chuckle* Sorry to spoil your gotcha moment.

So, you think that Jory's refusal to take part in a possibly illegal, massively blasphemous, secret blood magic ritual that will probably kill him is in any way equivilent or comparable to desertion in a real world historical army?

Check your meds dude.

[Imryll]

Obliterati wrote...
Anora (who is not, as far as I know, a Warden) talks at length about many of the dangerous aspects of the Joining, and nobody bats an eye.

But Anora was Cailan's queen. I'd expect her to know lots of things that it would be dangerous for common folk to know.  And I don't think it's only a recruitment issue. I can imagine a lot of superstitious folk reacting badly to a group of people known to drink the blood of darkspawn. The Grey Wardens had been banished from Ferelden for several hundred years before Maric gave them permission to return.  I think Duncan would have risked angry mobs, not just reluctant recruits, if he'd allowed Ser Jory to spread the word. It was a risk he couldn't take.

[marshalleck]

Obliterati wrote...

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Obliterati wrote...

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Now for some in game examples. Mages are removed from their homes, their lives strictly controled by the state. If they resist at all they are executed. Slavery is not looked down upon, and if not common, then at least accepted. The nobility is totaly uncontroled when it concerns those of lesser status in society. Executions of commoners are common for simple infractions. And you all are shocked by Duncan's summary execution of a deserter, that gave his pledge, and then tried to desert? I'm slightly amused by it all. It's kind of scary that people have no sense of history.

I must have been out sick the day they tought about wizards and dragons and elves and blood magic rituals in history class.

My bad, I guess.

I am soooo sorry. My bad that I didn't specify that I was refering to the top paragragh that described our own planets troubled history. I mistakenly thought it was self evident. *chuckle* Sorry to spoil your gotcha moment.

So, you think that Jory's refusal to take part in a possibly illegal, massively blasphemous, secret blood magic ritual that will probably kill him is in any way equivilent or comparable to desertion in a real world historical army?

Check your meds dude.

Actually, his argument is that applying modern values to this situation is a pointless and futile exercise. We're talking about a medieval, warlike culture here where one's word is their honor and one's honor is their life. When Duncan said there is no backing down from the Joining, he meant it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:52 .

[JamesX]

 Obliterati  wrote...

So, you think that Jory's refusal to take part in a possibly illegal, massively blasphemous, secret blood magic ritual that will probably kill him is in any way equivilent or comparable to desertion in a real world historical army?

Check your meds dude.

In RL, Jory would have been courtmartialed.  Assuming that the joining ritual is legal according to the Army's own laws, but since it is the joining ritual of the Gray Wardens it is obviously legal according to Gray Warden code.

oops.. edited the quote wrong Sorry.

In RL ancient times, he would be executed.  People have been killed for far less in ancient armies.

Modifié par JamesX, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:54 .

[marshalleck]

Hey now! I didn't write that. Fix your quote. :/

[Obliterati]

marshalleck wrote...

Obliterati wrote...

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Obliterati wrote...

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Now for some in game examples. Mages are removed from their homes, their lives strictly controled by the state. If they resist at all they are executed. Slavery is not looked down upon, and if not common, then at least accepted. The nobility is totaly uncontroled when it concerns those of lesser status in society. Executions of commoners are common for simple infractions. And you all are shocked by Duncan's summary execution of a deserter, that gave his pledge, and then tried to desert? I'm slightly amused by it all. It's kind of scary that people have no sense of history.

I must have been out sick the day they tought about wizards and dragons and elves and blood magic rituals in history class.

My bad, I guess.

I am soooo sorry. My bad that I didn't specify that I was refering to the top paragragh that described our own planets troubled history. I mistakenly thought it was self evident. *chuckle* Sorry to spoil your gotcha moment.

So, you think that Jory's refusal to take part in a possibly illegal, massively blasphemous, secret blood magic ritual that will probably kill him is in any way equivilent or comparable to desertion in a real world historical army?

Check your meds dude.

Actually, his argument is that applying modern values to this situation is a pointless and futile exercise.

If that is true than I apologize to Black-Knee for misunderstanding.

I'll restate my point with less sarcasm: this "Jory is a coward" meme is nonsensical. Jory doesn't know about Archdemons. Duncan never told him only a Warden can kill an Archdemon...perhaps if he had, Jory might have gone through with it. Or perhaps not, we'll never know.

But Jory doesn't know squat. He doesn't know anything about The Wardens, or the Joining, or tainted blood or Duncan or anything. The PC at least got to see Duncan save his/her butt in the origin story, Jory doesn't even have that. For all he knows, Duncan is some crazy old weirdo with a poison fetish.

I would have stabbed at Duncan too, if the game gave me the option. 

[Imryll]

A more analogus modern situation might be an unreliable person disposed to give away a military secret like the knowledge that the ****'s intended to bomb Coventry. If you had the resources temporarily to neutralize them, of course you would. If you didn't--and believed that keeping the secret could save millions of lives--you'd have a tough decision to make. Duncan doesn't kill Jory to punish desertion. He kills him to prevent a security leak that could dangerously impede the work of the Wardens.

[bjdbwea]

Actually, Jory wasn't a Grey Warden yet. So it's doubtful if he can even be called a deserter. He was perfectly willing to fight as a regular in the upcoming battle. He never had the choice some suggest he had either, he would probably have refused much earlier if he knew what was required of him later. Though he (as well as the PC for that matter) should've seen it coming when they were sent to collect that blood.

[Dauphin2]

The Merciful wrote...

Jibekn wrote...

Yes, because in a modern analogy, a cop wont shoot you for just DRAWING a gun.. oh wait, yes they will put a bullet in your chest.

Moron

So, what would said cop do, if someone armed advanced towards the cop with a cup of potentially lethal poison and a clear intent of forcing the cop to drink the substance?

Just curious.

The cop would drink it, since he promised he would and swore his allegiance to said poison holder. Knowing full well he was told once he agreed to join, there would be no turning back.

[mysticforce42]

Jory doesn't have to be a full Grey Warden to be guilty of desertion - all he needed to be was an initiate/neophyte/conscript/recruit of the Grey Wardens for it to apply. He obviously was a recruit, by choice in this case, but choice is irrelevant given the existence of the Right of Conscription.



Jory was a coward. His courage faltered not because of any prospect of dying while fighting the Arch Demon for he had no such knowledge, but because he fled from his duty to complete the ritual.

[Nial Black-Knee]

Obliterati wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Obliterati wrote...

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Obliterati wrote...

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Now for some in game examples. Mages are removed from their homes, their lives strictly controled by the state. If they resist at all they are executed. Slavery is not looked down upon, and if not common, then at least accepted. The nobility is totaly uncontroled when it concerns those of lesser status in society. Executions of commoners are common for simple infractions. And you all are shocked by Duncan's summary execution of a deserter, that gave his pledge, and then tried to desert? I'm slightly amused by it all. It's kind of scary that people have no sense of history.

I must have been out sick the day they tought about wizards and dragons and elves and blood magic rituals in history class.

My bad, I guess.

I am soooo sorry. My bad that I didn't specify that I was refering to the top paragragh that described our own planets troubled history. I mistakenly thought it was self evident. *chuckle* Sorry to spoil your gotcha moment.

So, you think that Jory's refusal to take part in a possibly illegal, massively blasphemous, secret blood magic ritual that will probably kill him is in any way equivilent or comparable to desertion in a real world historical army?

Check your meds dude.

Actually, his argument is that applying modern values to this situation is a pointless and futile exercise.

If that is true than I apologize to Black-Knee for misunderstanding.

I'll restate my point with less sarcasm: this "Jory is a coward" meme is nonsensical. Jory doesn't know about Archdemons. Duncan never told him only a Warden can kill an Archdemon...perhaps if he had, Jory might have gone through with it. Or perhaps not, we'll never know.

But Jory doesn't know squat. He doesn't know anything about The Wardens, or the Joining, or tainted blood or Duncan or anything. The PC at least got to see Duncan save his/her butt in the origin story, Jory doesn't even have that. For all he knows, Duncan is some crazy old weirdo with a poison fetish.

I would have stabbed at Duncan too, if the game gave me the option. 

Your point is valid. But not knowing the details berfore he gave his word or pledge to the GW just proves he is a fool. He is also a Ser or Sir/ knight. A lower member of the nobility if you will. He gave his word/ oath to Duncan and the GWs. Then when the going gets tough he tries to get going.

Even in our own so called modern society, ignorance of the law is not considered a valid excuse. Conclusion: He knew the ritual was dangerous. That is obvious from some of the convo's my characters have had with him before the ritual. He got cold feet and was willing to break his sworn word and destroy his honor to avoid his commitment. In his own martial society, better to kill him than let him live with the shame of that cowardice.

[Melheyon]

Jory's death serves two purposes.

1) It explains why theres no choice to not drink the poison... drink it you may die, refuse you WILL die.

2) the wardens, as stated several times, are not heroes, they do whatever they must, sacrifice themselves or anyone else, as long as they get at the blight. They need be noble ? they act noble, they need to be ruthless ? they act ruthless. Thats the point they drive trough (Jory) here.



Try playing from the perspective of someone who don't like the wardens...

And as you play, more bad news is revealed about that drink.



Cant see how the wardens keep the loyalty of their recruits tough.

My rogue would probably really like the opportunity to kill dunkie himself.



The grey wardens are morally... grey.

[Dark83]

Note that even the suspicion of desertion (sneaking around at night) is enough to get you executed.

[vyvexthorne]

After that scene it made me kind of wish I could play a character that was on the run from the grey wardens for deserting because I didn't agree with their values.... (guess that would kind of defeat the purpose of the game though.)

[Endgame13]

For gods sake people the secrets of the grey wardens could not have been spread. Is that so hard to understand?

[RunCDFirst]

imported_beer wrote...
There is a fascinating dilemma in the book the Calling. Two people talk about what they think their role as Grey Wardens is. One considers her role "ENDING the blight forever" and takes steps accordingly. The other considers his role "saving the people from the blight" and his actions differ accordingly. The latter would see the Wynne story and go "heroes". The one who thinks ending the blight forever is the only permanent solution would think it pointless.

I'm curious, does anyone in the books actually have a solid idea of why there are Blights. I mean, sure we have the Tevinter High Dragons and what not, but aside from religious ideology is there any indication what makes the dragons archdemons, why there's darkspawn and why they have this inhuman desire to destroy all life? 

Just seems to me that the Grey Wardens are all set on throwing themselves upon the swords of monsters without even discovering why there are monsters in the first place.

Just wondering if it's mentioned in the books is all.

It was...well shady is not the word I'd use but amusing.

Here my PC was standing above her efather who is bleeding in an ever widening pool of blood. Duncan just walks in and says "Yeah- I can get you out if you become a Grey Warden". Both my mother and father seem to  think facing the archdemon is better for me than standing in that kitchen. 

We could say he just removes player agency then. I mean, your father is lying in an ever widening pool of blood, but he still requests you take vengeance upon the traitor who caused it. But Duncan wants none of that now. I was also a little... annoyed by my mother's decision to stay behind and die. Well jeez, thanks for not making this situation any worse there, mother dearest.

[Branix]

Imryll wrote...

Duncan doesn't kill Jory to punish desertion. He kills him to prevent a security leak that could dangerously impede the work of the Wardens.

Exactly.  The world cannot know this "secret".  The recruits didn't know until it was time to swallow the magic pill so of course they cannot live the tell the tale. 

[Madlax27]

I'm sure in the past 13 pages this was already mentioned but in the Grey Warden lore there was a senior grey warden killed by a recruit that didn't want to drink the potion.



Since then they implemented the rule that if a recruit draws their weapon they will be killed on the spot, no matter what.



Duncan even hints towards this, saying "when he drew his sword he left me no choice" or something to that extent.



Anyway, I'm sure diving through 13 pages of text would have had other people mention this, but because this discussion is still going on for so long I just thought I would mention it again.

[Dark83]

I heard that before, but I'm curious as to the source. Was it from a book?

[Hurbster]

Well seeing as in my game Jory was nekkid at that point (I shudder to think where he got the sword from) - it was murder.

[Nial Black-Knee]

Hurbster wrote...

Well seeing as in my game Jory was nekkid at that point (I shudder to think where he got the sword from) - it was murder.

You do know you get all their stuff after the ritual?

[marshalleck]

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Hurbster wrote...

Well seeing as in my game Jory was nekkid at that point (I shudder to think where he got the sword from) - it was murder.

You do know you get all their stuff after the ritual?

That's not as entertaining.