I think next time I'm going to put him in Chasind robes. Just to mix things up.
Shame I can't get him to wave a giant hammer about wildly.
He was NOT acting in self defense
Débuté par
bjdbwea
, nov. 22 2009 05:59
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#327
Posté 24 novembre 2009 - 10:00
Valcutio
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He knew the secret of the Wardens and tried to walk away from finishing the ritual. Death is the price. Easy as that.
#328
Posté 24 novembre 2009 - 10:02
Nial Black-Knee
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marshalleck wrote...
That's not as entertaining.Nial Black-Knee wrote...
Hurbster wrote...
Well seeing as in my game Jory was nekkid at that point (I shudder to think where he got the sword from) - it was murder.
You do know you get all their stuff after the ritual?
LOL.....point !!
#329
Posté 24 novembre 2009 - 10:03
FlintlockJazz
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Endgame13 wrote...
For gods sake people the secrets of the grey wardens could not have been spread. Is that so hard to understand?
For gods sake Endgame Duncan was an inept fool who let trained killers who only know how to deal with problems by hitting them with big swords take said big swords into a potentially stressful situation despite it being stated in the lore that such a situation has occured before, is that so hard to understand?
In their attempts to make the Grey Wardens look 'badass' they just made Duncan look like a dick and the entire scene contrived, I like the game and it's just a shame that they felt that they had to put this scene in, would have been better done without to be honest. Have them all drink it, perhaps with one of them forced at knife point if they really felt it was necessary to have something like that in it but with a scene like the one they put in without the option to join Jorey in his rebellion would just ****** people off. Yes, they're being forced to join the Grey Wardens, we all know that's the whole plotline of the game, but putting in a scene like that and yet not giving the player the chance to try and join in on Jorey's rebellion or even do anything at the time is just poor, and should have been cut out.
#330
Posté 24 novembre 2009 - 10:05
FlintlockJazz
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Madlax27 wrote...
I'm sure in the past 13 pages this was already mentioned but in the Grey Warden lore there was a senior grey warden killed by a recruit that didn't want to drink the potion.
Since then they implemented the rule that if a recruit draws their weapon they will be killed on the spot, no matter what.
Duncan even hints towards this, saying "when he drew his sword he left me no choice" or something to that extent.
Anyway, I'm sure diving through 13 pages of text would have had other people mention this, but because this discussion is still going on for so long I just thought I would mention it again.
Yes it was mentioned, and it was also mentioned that in that case they should not have been allowed weapons in the ritual at all then, it was just stupid.
#331
Posté 24 novembre 2009 - 10:05
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I reloaded a saved game before the Joining took place and replayed it just for this thread. Before Duncan has Alister take you to the Old Temple for the Joining ritual, he makes this clear if you let him know you're having second thoughts:
Duncan: Let me be very clear on that point. You are not volunteers. Whether you were conscripted or recruited, you were chosen because you are needed. There is no turning back now. You must gather your courage for what comes next.
Daveth: Courage? How much danger are we in?
Duncan: I will not lie; we Grey Wardens pay a heavy price to become what we are. Fate may decreethat you pay your price now rather than later.
PC: You're saying this ritual can kill us?
Duncan: As could any darkspawn you might face in battle. You would not have been chosen, however, if I did not think you had a chance to survive.
After the ritual and Jory's death the PC can express dismay over what happened. Duncan explains himself as follows:
Duncan: Jory was warned that there was no turning back, as were you all. When he went for his blade, however, he left me no choice. It brought me no pleasure to end his life. The Blight demands sacrifices from us all. Thankfully, you stand here as proof they are not all made in vain.
During the Joining here is what took place:
Daveth is the first to drink the blood. He looks like he is in pain, he struggles several moments, and then falls over dead. Any sensible or rational person would have the reaction Jory has: "Oh my ****ing god. Get that cup away from me. I am not drinking that." Jory has a complete freak out. He draws his weapon and begins to back away.
Duncan tells him pointedly, with more than a little dangerous crazy look in his eyes, to drink and that he didn't have a choice. Duncan also draws his dagger as Jory has drawn his sword, and it is pretty clear he's prepared to fight if he has to in order to get away. Jory refuses to drink so Duncan advances. Jory strikes first with his sword, a pathetic strike, mostly because he's terrified out of his mind. Duncan parries the attack with ease then stabs Jory in the chest. He tells Jory that he's sorry... then he turns to the PC. It's your turn to drink.
After seeing this, any second thoughts of not drinking that blood should be fading from your mind. You're either going to drink or die. At that point Bioware could have given you three options: drink the blood, run away, or try and fight. If you tried to run or fight you'd die and it'd be game over. So you're railroaded into:
"You know what Ser Duncan... I feel really thirsty all of a sudden. Pass the blood!"
Duncan: Let me be very clear on that point. You are not volunteers. Whether you were conscripted or recruited, you were chosen because you are needed. There is no turning back now. You must gather your courage for what comes next.
Daveth: Courage? How much danger are we in?
Duncan: I will not lie; we Grey Wardens pay a heavy price to become what we are. Fate may decreethat you pay your price now rather than later.
PC: You're saying this ritual can kill us?
Duncan: As could any darkspawn you might face in battle. You would not have been chosen, however, if I did not think you had a chance to survive.
After the ritual and Jory's death the PC can express dismay over what happened. Duncan explains himself as follows:
Duncan: Jory was warned that there was no turning back, as were you all. When he went for his blade, however, he left me no choice. It brought me no pleasure to end his life. The Blight demands sacrifices from us all. Thankfully, you stand here as proof they are not all made in vain.
During the Joining here is what took place:
Daveth is the first to drink the blood. He looks like he is in pain, he struggles several moments, and then falls over dead. Any sensible or rational person would have the reaction Jory has: "Oh my ****ing god. Get that cup away from me. I am not drinking that." Jory has a complete freak out. He draws his weapon and begins to back away.
Duncan tells him pointedly, with more than a little dangerous crazy look in his eyes, to drink and that he didn't have a choice. Duncan also draws his dagger as Jory has drawn his sword, and it is pretty clear he's prepared to fight if he has to in order to get away. Jory refuses to drink so Duncan advances. Jory strikes first with his sword, a pathetic strike, mostly because he's terrified out of his mind. Duncan parries the attack with ease then stabs Jory in the chest. He tells Jory that he's sorry... then he turns to the PC. It's your turn to drink.
After seeing this, any second thoughts of not drinking that blood should be fading from your mind. You're either going to drink or die. At that point Bioware could have given you three options: drink the blood, run away, or try and fight. If you tried to run or fight you'd die and it'd be game over. So you're railroaded into:
"You know what Ser Duncan... I feel really thirsty all of a sudden. Pass the blood!"
Modifié par Meldread, 24 novembre 2009 - 10:12 .
#332
Posté 24 novembre 2009 - 10:12
FlintlockJazz
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Actually, if you look where Jorey is striking, he is not going for Duncan but the knife, he is trying to knock it away. He is not determined to hurt Duncan even then, and when Duncan realises this he goes in for the kill.
When Jorey draws the blade, players playing characters that don't want to join in the ritual would want to also draw their weapons, leading to a cluster****, which if they had more recruits joining could have resulted in an even bigger mess, hence again it was stupid to let them have weapons.
As to saying that there was no going back, he said that they had no choice even before going in to the ritual, you already had no choice on the matter before going in.
When Jorey draws the blade, players playing characters that don't want to join in the ritual would want to also draw their weapons, leading to a cluster****, which if they had more recruits joining could have resulted in an even bigger mess, hence again it was stupid to let them have weapons.
As to saying that there was no going back, he said that they had no choice even before going in to the ritual, you already had no choice on the matter before going in.
Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 24 novembre 2009 - 10:13 .
#333
Posté 24 novembre 2009 - 10:27
mysticforce42
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Nial Black-Knee wrote...
Hurbster wrote...
Well seeing as in my game Jory was nekkid at that point (I shudder to think where he got the sword from) - it was murder.
You do know you get all their stuff after the ritual?
But you get two sets if you undress them first :innocent:
#334
Posté 24 novembre 2009 - 10:34
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Sure, it was probably stupid for them to have weapons at the Joining. Although, I don't think it was Jory's intention to knock the dagger out of Duncan's hand. Jory was in full freak out mode. He just watched Daveth writhe around and collapse dead just seconds ago. Jory was in fight or flight mode... he would have done anything to avoid drinking. He would have killed everyone there, if necessary, not that he could have of course, but at that moment in time Jory was not in any way rational. I saw it as a wild and desperate swing of the sword, almost a threatening move to keep Duncan at bay, a sort of; "Stay away from me or else!" move... Duncan easily parried, and at that point it was clear to everyone (if there was even any doubt from the moment Jory drew the blade) that Jory was not going to drink the blood. Thus, Duncan shanked him right there and made his apology as Jory drew his last breath.
Sure, Bioware could have given the option to join in Jory's crazy momentary rebellion. But you would have died. Even if you managed to kill Duncan and Alister, the entire camp with every soldier would have turned on you. They would have released the hounds to hunt you through the Wilds, assuming you even made it that far... and you would have been executed, assuming they didn't torture you first, the moment you were caught. And even if you managed to escape into the Wilds, you'd still run into the Darkspawn Hordes.... thus dying that way.
However, the likelihood of you defeating both Duncan and Alister was virtually nil. The whole narrative point to killing Jory was to make it clear that you *HAD* no other choice but to drink. To refuse meant *death*. That was the entire point of showing Duncan killing Jory. It was one thing for Duncan to say, "You are not volunteers. Whether you were conscripted or recruited, you were chosen because you are needed. There is no turning back now." It is something else entirely when he backs those words up with action.
Sure, Bioware could have given the option to join in Jory's crazy momentary rebellion. But you would have died. Even if you managed to kill Duncan and Alister, the entire camp with every soldier would have turned on you. They would have released the hounds to hunt you through the Wilds, assuming you even made it that far... and you would have been executed, assuming they didn't torture you first, the moment you were caught. And even if you managed to escape into the Wilds, you'd still run into the Darkspawn Hordes.... thus dying that way.
However, the likelihood of you defeating both Duncan and Alister was virtually nil. The whole narrative point to killing Jory was to make it clear that you *HAD* no other choice but to drink. To refuse meant *death*. That was the entire point of showing Duncan killing Jory. It was one thing for Duncan to say, "You are not volunteers. Whether you were conscripted or recruited, you were chosen because you are needed. There is no turning back now." It is something else entirely when he backs those words up with action.
#335
Posté 24 novembre 2009 - 10:41
TheLeafy
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Drawing one's sword is enough declaration of hostile intent to be extremely dangerous. If someone pulls a gun on a police officer, it doesn't matter whether or not he shoots, he still has demonstrated a willingness to use his weapon.
Duncan acted in self defense, period.
Duncan acted in self defense, period.
#336
Posté 24 novembre 2009 - 11:35
FlintlockJazz
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I'm just pointing out that it's not as clear cut as people make it out to be, and that it's really a low point in the story for the following reasons:
1. Duncan is stupid to let them take weapons in. Either this proves that Duncan is a complete incompetent as I doubt anyone with any experience should make this mistake or we accept that it is a contrived plothook that is completely out of character for the characters involved.
2. Yes, there are laws about desertion and such like but soldiers are not robots, and when you put them in a situation they consider unreasonable they will take matters into their own hands. Hence, Duncan recruiting people against their will is also incredibly stupid, as even when they have survived the Joining ritual he has effectively given them a death sentence, and alot of people are not going to like that. As a result, Duncan should have been found face down in a river, his throat cut, a long time ago if he has used this recruiting tactic before. Yes, he is supposed to be all powerful and **** like that but a group of Grey Wardens who didn't want to be Grey Wardens are going to take matters into their own hands. Vietnam is a perfect example of this, what with the high death rate of officers due to 'friendly fire'.
3. Yes, it was done to show us that to refuse 'meant death', but it was done wrong. Most players would want to at least have the option of doing something, whether it be to help Jorey, to try and talk them down, or to even kill Jorey ourselves. But no, we have control taken away from our character which, while we never really have full control over our characters anyway in a CRPG, is frustrating in a situation like this, and hence should be minimised. They should have just had the two of them die from drinking from the cup.
As to the matter of whether Jorey is a coward, no he is not. He is taking action against what he feels is a threat, in the only manner that he knows. He even states that using a sword is the only way he knows how to confront things. And finally, I have watched that scene myself repeatedly, and it always looks like to me that Duncan does not parry but has the knife knocked away by Jorey's blow, Duncan doesn't even move the knife until the sword hits it, and then goes "Aha, you're not going to attack me, I'm gonna slash ma **** up!"...erm, I mean, he decides to put Jorey out of his misery.
1. Duncan is stupid to let them take weapons in. Either this proves that Duncan is a complete incompetent as I doubt anyone with any experience should make this mistake or we accept that it is a contrived plothook that is completely out of character for the characters involved.
2. Yes, there are laws about desertion and such like but soldiers are not robots, and when you put them in a situation they consider unreasonable they will take matters into their own hands. Hence, Duncan recruiting people against their will is also incredibly stupid, as even when they have survived the Joining ritual he has effectively given them a death sentence, and alot of people are not going to like that. As a result, Duncan should have been found face down in a river, his throat cut, a long time ago if he has used this recruiting tactic before. Yes, he is supposed to be all powerful and **** like that but a group of Grey Wardens who didn't want to be Grey Wardens are going to take matters into their own hands. Vietnam is a perfect example of this, what with the high death rate of officers due to 'friendly fire'.
3. Yes, it was done to show us that to refuse 'meant death', but it was done wrong. Most players would want to at least have the option of doing something, whether it be to help Jorey, to try and talk them down, or to even kill Jorey ourselves. But no, we have control taken away from our character which, while we never really have full control over our characters anyway in a CRPG, is frustrating in a situation like this, and hence should be minimised. They should have just had the two of them die from drinking from the cup.
As to the matter of whether Jorey is a coward, no he is not. He is taking action against what he feels is a threat, in the only manner that he knows. He even states that using a sword is the only way he knows how to confront things. And finally, I have watched that scene myself repeatedly, and it always looks like to me that Duncan does not parry but has the knife knocked away by Jorey's blow, Duncan doesn't even move the knife until the sword hits it, and then goes "Aha, you're not going to attack me, I'm gonna slash ma **** up!"...erm, I mean, he decides to put Jorey out of his misery.
#337
Posté 24 novembre 2009 - 11:47
Nial Black-Knee
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I don't get why people are so worried about Joery? He was a coward. He proved that in the wilds. Even Daveth (the rogue character) Is constantly telling him to quit whining. He is everything a knight shouldn't be. If your going to mourn someone. Mourn the the red haired knight in the human noble origin. Now there is someone that had what it takes. He goes to his death with class and glory. Willingly giving his life so that his liege's wife and son can escape.
Modifié par Nial Black-Knee, 24 novembre 2009 - 11:48 .
#338
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 12:26
Zibon
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I think Duncan actually set up the situations in your origin story so that you would be forced to join him.
#339
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 12:36
FlintlockJazz
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Nial Black-Knee wrote...
I don't get why people are so worried about Joery? He was a coward. He proved that in the wilds. Even Daveth (the rogue character) Is constantly telling him to quit whining. He is everything a knight shouldn't be. If your going to mourn someone. Mourn the the red haired knight in the human noble origin. Now there is someone that had what it takes. He goes to his death with class and glory. Willingly giving his life so that his liege's wife and son can escape.
Really? Daveth almost fills his pants when you meet Morrigan, and does so again when you meet Flemeth, whereas Jorey seems non-plussed and even gets praised by Flemeth for being smart. I personally would have liked to have seen more of both Daveth and Jorey as they seemed to be more real and colourful characters party because they weren't perfect while simultaneously were not arrogant prats (it seems to be that if you're not perfect then you're an annoying prat in most media these days). Sir Gilmore from the human noble origin was just a "I'm a knight!" character to me, and could have been expanded on more.
Zibon wrote...
I think Duncan actually set up the situations in your origin story so that you would be forced to join him.
Possibly, I would have more respect for the guy if he did.
#340
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 01:03
Meldread
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1. I'd agree on principle that it was silly to let them take their weapons to the joining. However, if looked at in the larger context, I don't think it really matters. Had Daveth, Jory and the PC all conspired to take out Duncan and flee... hell, even if they had managed to pull Alister in on it... I'm pretty sure Duncan could have killed all four of them. Right there. Alone. It's not like anyone there was a serious threat to him.
Was the whole situation a contrived plot element? Of course it was. There is nothing you can do to stop it from happening, and it will happen each and every time you go through the game. No matter what you say or do Jory and Daveth will always die. However, that overlooks the reason it happened. And the fact that... what could you really have done? It happened all within a few second span. By the time Jory was swinging his weapon, Duncan had stabbed him. There was no real time to get a reaction by the PC. The PC might have been able to say something when Jory begins to first freak out... but Duncan speaks first and appears to have things under control. Everything that takes place is perfectly reasonable.
It could be argued that the option should have been given to the PC to refuse to drink like Jory... but then people would complain, "No matter what I do, Duncan always kills me when I refuse to drink!" It's a lose - lose situation on the part of Bioware.
2. Again, the whole situation, right from the very beginning, is contrived to make you a Grey Warden. I've played four of the Origin Stories so far, and each and every one of them puts the PC in a position to be conscripted or willingly recruited by Duncan. If you refuse to come willingly with Duncan, he conscripts you - assuming he gave you a choice to start with. He makes it very clear that you have no choice.
Can you become a deserter? No. Could Bioware have given you the option? Of course. But then you'd eventually end up dead, because even if you escaped the Blight would spread and everyone would die because you weren't willing to fight. Everyone including you. Then people would complain that there was nothing they could do to stop the Blight, or no matter what they did they were ultimately captured and executed for desertion.
3. Again, things happened so fast it isn't unreasonable to believe that the PC didn't have time to react. Kill him ourselves? It wasn't Duncan's intention to kill him until Jory swung his sword, making it clear he was unwilling to drink. Had you killed him before that, Duncan likely would have killed you for murdering a potential recruit. Only Duncan, and arguably Alister had the right to kill Jory. I've already addressed all the other options above.
Had they both died from drinking from the cup... why in the world would the PC -not- pull a Jory? You just watched two people fall over dead from drinking that stuff. Why in the world would you line up to be the third? Jory's reaction was completely understandable considering what had just happened. Had Jory followed in Daveth's shoes there is no reason why you wouldn't have pulled a Jory. Having Jory do what he did makes everything crystal clear. You were either going to take your chances with the blood or you were going to die. The choice was black and white. Small chance of living another day vs immediate execution.
I don't see how they could have done things any differently, and had it all still carry the same impact. I thought it was well done.
Was the whole situation a contrived plot element? Of course it was. There is nothing you can do to stop it from happening, and it will happen each and every time you go through the game. No matter what you say or do Jory and Daveth will always die. However, that overlooks the reason it happened. And the fact that... what could you really have done? It happened all within a few second span. By the time Jory was swinging his weapon, Duncan had stabbed him. There was no real time to get a reaction by the PC. The PC might have been able to say something when Jory begins to first freak out... but Duncan speaks first and appears to have things under control. Everything that takes place is perfectly reasonable.
It could be argued that the option should have been given to the PC to refuse to drink like Jory... but then people would complain, "No matter what I do, Duncan always kills me when I refuse to drink!" It's a lose - lose situation on the part of Bioware.
2. Again, the whole situation, right from the very beginning, is contrived to make you a Grey Warden. I've played four of the Origin Stories so far, and each and every one of them puts the PC in a position to be conscripted or willingly recruited by Duncan. If you refuse to come willingly with Duncan, he conscripts you - assuming he gave you a choice to start with. He makes it very clear that you have no choice.
Can you become a deserter? No. Could Bioware have given you the option? Of course. But then you'd eventually end up dead, because even if you escaped the Blight would spread and everyone would die because you weren't willing to fight. Everyone including you. Then people would complain that there was nothing they could do to stop the Blight, or no matter what they did they were ultimately captured and executed for desertion.
3. Again, things happened so fast it isn't unreasonable to believe that the PC didn't have time to react. Kill him ourselves? It wasn't Duncan's intention to kill him until Jory swung his sword, making it clear he was unwilling to drink. Had you killed him before that, Duncan likely would have killed you for murdering a potential recruit. Only Duncan, and arguably Alister had the right to kill Jory. I've already addressed all the other options above.
Had they both died from drinking from the cup... why in the world would the PC -not- pull a Jory? You just watched two people fall over dead from drinking that stuff. Why in the world would you line up to be the third? Jory's reaction was completely understandable considering what had just happened. Had Jory followed in Daveth's shoes there is no reason why you wouldn't have pulled a Jory. Having Jory do what he did makes everything crystal clear. You were either going to take your chances with the blood or you were going to die. The choice was black and white. Small chance of living another day vs immediate execution.
I don't see how they could have done things any differently, and had it all still carry the same impact. I thought it was well done.
#341
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 01:03
DariusKalera
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Sorry, but I cannot see Jorey as a coward. As was stated before, he was put into a situation that he did not fully understand and had a freak out when one of the other recruits dies in the process. On top of this, he had a wife and child on the way which had been on his mind during the entire time he was with the PC. The possibility of a painful death right there at that moment put a crap load of stress on an already stressed out mind and he broke.
Everyone has limits on what they can, and can not endure, and Jorey simply reached his.
Though, I do have to say that this incident shows that Duncan had very bad recruiting practices. He never should have recruited Jorey since he was about to become a father and knew that he had a chance of dieing in the process of the ritual.
First line of the Warden recruiting manual should say "Single men and women only please!"
Everyone has limits on what they can, and can not endure, and Jorey simply reached his.
Though, I do have to say that this incident shows that Duncan had very bad recruiting practices. He never should have recruited Jorey since he was about to become a father and knew that he had a chance of dieing in the process of the ritual.
First line of the Warden recruiting manual should say "Single men and women only please!"
#342
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 01:14
JamesX
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And we call those with less than average limit cowards.DariusKalera wrote...
Sorry, but I cannot see Jorey as a coward. As was stated before, he was put into a situation that he did not fully understand and had a freak out when one of the other recruits dies in the process. On top of this, he had a wife and child on the way which had been on his mind during the entire time he was with the PC. The possibility of a painful death right there at that moment put a crap load of stress on an already stressed out mind and he broke.
Everyone has limits on what they can, and can not endure, and Jorey simply reached his.
Jory's cowardice is showed even on the first scripted encounter in the forest where the ambushed scout lay dying on the ground. It is obvious Jory is afraid of dying.
While it is human nature to be afraid of death, I consider the manner in which he displayed it Cowardly. In fact during that CS I called him on it.
#343
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 01:19
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I don't want to spoil the City Elf Origin... so if you haven't played through it don't read on...
In that Origin story, Duncan shows up right as the PC is preparing to get married. Granted, the PC can act as though they want out, but the PC can also act happy / excited about it. Had the events in that Origin story not taken place, Duncan still likely would have recruited the PC. In the end he conscripts the PC to save his / her life. However, it's pretty clear from the time you meet him until later that Duncan intends to at the very least test out the PC to become a Grey Warden.
This means that you could have gotten married, and then immediately after the ceremony, Duncan could have conscripted you into the Wardens.... and you were just married! In most of the origin's I've played through it is Duncan who pulls you out of hot water right at the end.... right before certain death would have claimed your character. So you have every reason to go with him.
Daveth was conscripted and Jory signed up. Duncan believed that Jory would survive the Joining. He might have. We'll never know because Jory refused. However, it was made clear in more than one Origin story that the Warden gives up his family ties. Duncan did that. Jory would have known that as well...
If Duncan can be blamed for anything regarding Jory it is that he did not fully understand how much Jory was still committed to his family. However, there seems to be many Grey Wardens who had families before they joined and maintained contact and relationships with them even after.... so there was no reason for Duncan to believe the same couldn't have been true for Jory. Duncan also didn't know he'd die there at Ostagar, and had he not died there he could have lived on to mentor Jory into becoming a more proper Grey Warden.
I could certainly see Jory as a Grey Warden after being mentored by Duncan... even a great Grey Warden.
In that Origin story, Duncan shows up right as the PC is preparing to get married. Granted, the PC can act as though they want out, but the PC can also act happy / excited about it. Had the events in that Origin story not taken place, Duncan still likely would have recruited the PC. In the end he conscripts the PC to save his / her life. However, it's pretty clear from the time you meet him until later that Duncan intends to at the very least test out the PC to become a Grey Warden.
This means that you could have gotten married, and then immediately after the ceremony, Duncan could have conscripted you into the Wardens.... and you were just married! In most of the origin's I've played through it is Duncan who pulls you out of hot water right at the end.... right before certain death would have claimed your character. So you have every reason to go with him.
Daveth was conscripted and Jory signed up. Duncan believed that Jory would survive the Joining. He might have. We'll never know because Jory refused. However, it was made clear in more than one Origin story that the Warden gives up his family ties. Duncan did that. Jory would have known that as well...
If Duncan can be blamed for anything regarding Jory it is that he did not fully understand how much Jory was still committed to his family. However, there seems to be many Grey Wardens who had families before they joined and maintained contact and relationships with them even after.... so there was no reason for Duncan to believe the same couldn't have been true for Jory. Duncan also didn't know he'd die there at Ostagar, and had he not died there he could have lived on to mentor Jory into becoming a more proper Grey Warden.
I could certainly see Jory as a Grey Warden after being mentored by Duncan... even a great Grey Warden.
#344
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 02:06
Obliterati
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JamesX wrote...
And we call those with less than average limit cowards.DariusKalera wrote...
Sorry, but I cannot see Jorey as a coward. As was stated before, he was put into a situation that he did not fully understand and had a freak out when one of the other recruits dies in the process. On top of this, he had a wife and child on the way which had been on his mind during the entire time he was with the PC. The possibility of a painful death right there at that moment put a crap load of stress on an already stressed out mind and he broke.
Everyone has limits on what they can, and can not endure, and Jorey simply reached his.
Jory's cowardice is showed even on the first scripted encounter in the forest where the ambushed scout lay dying on the ground. It is obvious Jory is afraid of dying.
While it is human nature to be afraid of death, I consider the manner in which he displayed it Cowardly. In fact during that CS I called him on it.
This is categorically false.
The wounded soldier indicates that the entire darkspawn horde is right around the corner. Jory, quite resonably, notes that the four of them charging into the midst of thousands of darkspawn would be rather pointless, not to mention suicidal. At that point, Alistair reassures Jory (and the PC) that he can "sense" the darkspawn (which of course is complete bull****, but that's another thread), and that the main horde is some distance away...they just have to deal with some stragglers. At that point Jory continues on, and never mentions any doubts about the mission again.
If anyone thinks that Jory going "hmmm, 4 vs 10,000 seems like a bad idea" somehow makes him a coward, then...well, there's nothing more that can be said, is there?
#345
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 02:18
DariusKalera
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JamesX wrote...
And we call those with less than average limit cowards.DariusKalera wrote...
Sorry, but I cannot see Jorey as a coward. As was stated before, he was put into a situation that he did not fully understand and had a freak out when one of the other recruits dies in the process. On top of this, he had a wife and child on the way which had been on his mind during the entire time he was with the PC. The possibility of a painful death right there at that moment put a crap load of stress on an already stressed out mind and he broke.
Everyone has limits on what they can, and can not endure, and Jorey simply reached his.
Jory's cowardice is showed even on the first scripted encounter in the forest where the ambushed scout lay dying on the ground. It is obvious Jory is afraid of dying.
While it is human nature to be afraid of death, I consider the manner in which he displayed it Cowardly. In fact during that CS I called him on it.
What is the "average limit" for a person?
Different people react to diffferent influences in different ways. What might break one person might not break another.
I do not see Jory as being afraid of dying I see him of being afraid of never seeing his wife and kid. There is a difference. He continously says through out the time that he is with the PC that if he had known what was involved he never would have left them.
While it was fear that caused him to act the way he did, it was not cowardice.
#346
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 02:29
MFCell
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[/quote]
While it was fear that caused him to act the way he did, it was not cowardice.
[/quote]
What caused him to act the way he did was being confronted with an inescapable fate. Whethor or not he was afraid of what was coming, he was not leaving that ritual without either following through, or dying as a deserter and possible traitor. Ser Daveth was not afraid, he drank the blood, and he did not leave the ritual either. What held them both back from leaving the ritual, was an unescapable fate.
It doesn't matter what situation brought you to the Joining. You leave the Joining a Gray Warden, or you do not leave it at all. Fear, bravery, dumb luck, or noble heritage. None of that kinda stuff matters. As a Gray Warden, you are not allowed to let it matter.
While it was fear that caused him to act the way he did, it was not cowardice.
[/quote]
What caused him to act the way he did was being confronted with an inescapable fate. Whethor or not he was afraid of what was coming, he was not leaving that ritual without either following through, or dying as a deserter and possible traitor. Ser Daveth was not afraid, he drank the blood, and he did not leave the ritual either. What held them both back from leaving the ritual, was an unescapable fate.
It doesn't matter what situation brought you to the Joining. You leave the Joining a Gray Warden, or you do not leave it at all. Fear, bravery, dumb luck, or noble heritage. None of that kinda stuff matters. As a Gray Warden, you are not allowed to let it matter.
#347
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 02:30
JamesX
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That is why I said "to me is cowardly"
If I remember it relatively accurately. Jory's complain was that "They took out an entire group of seasoned warriors, what is 4 of us going to do? etc. etc. lets turn back."
Coward through and through. Whatever reason he gave are just justifications to allow himself to live with himself. There are those who are motiviated by the thought of their family getting hurt - like a soldier protecting his nation/family/etc. There are those who use their family and responsibilities as clutches - I can't die, what will happen to my family!!???
To me that is cowardly.
If I remember it relatively accurately. Jory's complain was that "They took out an entire group of seasoned warriors, what is 4 of us going to do? etc. etc. lets turn back."
Coward through and through. Whatever reason he gave are just justifications to allow himself to live with himself. There are those who are motiviated by the thought of their family getting hurt - like a soldier protecting his nation/family/etc. There are those who use their family and responsibilities as clutches - I can't die, what will happen to my family!!???
To me that is cowardly.
#348
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 02:34
Obliterati
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JamesX wrote...
That is why I said "to me is cowardly"
If I remember it relatively accurately. Jory's complain was that "They took out an entire group of seasoned warriors, what is 4 of us going to do? etc. etc. lets turn back."
Coward through and through. Whatever reason he gave are just justifications to allow himself to live with himself. There are those who are motiviated by the thought of their family getting hurt - like a soldier protecting his nation/family/etc. There are those who use their family and responsibilities as clutches - I can't die, what will happen to my family!!???
To me that is cowardly.
To me it's smart tactics and good situational awareness, but it seems that much about Jory and Duncan's situation is in the eye of the beholder.
I wonder if anyone at BioWare thought that a (seemingly) throwaway scene like Jory's death would inspire such discussion?
#349
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 02:36
Radahldo
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I like that he openly speaks about his fears, sharing them so readily with perceived comrades. The honesty was very appreciated.
We don't get to see his leadership skills, but I assume he's below even Alistair in regards to that.
Though,Duncan obfuscates things, he doesn't give way to flowery-speech; that "When do we ride Gryphons" stuff is something Jory was predisposed to, for whatever reason, and it's not Duncans fault if Jory doesn't develop a mature viewpoint.
I highly doubt he was mislead. With that attitude and perception of the Wardens, it would not have been necessary.
He his wife and child are important, but he should not have offered himself perfidiously to a very serious thing. This is something people do all the time in one way are or another.
I could see him being a good Warden, especially with Duncans guidance.
Probably his wife is dead at Redcliffe, or a miscarriage, following the events there. A lot could've happened with Jory to skew him of his current disposition. I do wonder if he would've ever seriously deserted us, though.
We don't get to see his leadership skills, but I assume he's below even Alistair in regards to that.
Though,Duncan obfuscates things, he doesn't give way to flowery-speech; that "When do we ride Gryphons" stuff is something Jory was predisposed to, for whatever reason, and it's not Duncans fault if Jory doesn't develop a mature viewpoint.
I highly doubt he was mislead. With that attitude and perception of the Wardens, it would not have been necessary.
He his wife and child are important, but he should not have offered himself perfidiously to a very serious thing. This is something people do all the time in one way are or another.
I could see him being a good Warden, especially with Duncans guidance.
Probably his wife is dead at Redcliffe, or a miscarriage, following the events there. A lot could've happened with Jory to skew him of his current disposition. I do wonder if he would've ever seriously deserted us, though.
#350
Posté 25 novembre 2009 - 02:37
JamesX
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It would have been smart tactics if he was actually in the tactical situation.
It is cowardice when you are even afraid to try. If the party encountered a massive amount of dark spawn and is confronted with the choice of Rush in foolhardily or back up and get more help - I would have no problem with it.
What the party confronted with is the failure of another group of people. There is no way to know if the dark spawns are there, moved on, got killed by another patrol, etc.
Instead of going forth and at least confirm the task impossible. Jory want to cut and run. Keep in mind at this point the party has yet to engage any dark spawn - only a pack of wolves.
It is cowardice when you are even afraid to try. If the party encountered a massive amount of dark spawn and is confronted with the choice of Rush in foolhardily or back up and get more help - I would have no problem with it.
What the party confronted with is the failure of another group of people. There is no way to know if the dark spawns are there, moved on, got killed by another patrol, etc.
Instead of going forth and at least confirm the task impossible. Jory want to cut and run. Keep in mind at this point the party has yet to engage any dark spawn - only a pack of wolves.
Modifié par JamesX, 25 novembre 2009 - 02:39 .
