384 réponses à ce sujet

[Meldread]

I think there is confusion between fear and cowardice. Jory was -afraid-, but feeling fear and voicing it does not make an individual a coward. You're only a coward if you allow the fear to control you. Jory is obviously not a leader, and were he on his own or in the lead he most likely would have acted in a cowardly fashion. However, in order to be a coward he would have had to actually turned around and went back. He would have had to forfeit the mission. He didn't.



During the Joining I don't consider Jory a coward then either. His response was to freak out at being asked to drink poison after he just watched it kill someone. What would you do? It was an easy choice to make after watching Duncan just kill Jory... had you gone after Daveth, and reacted as Jory had, resulting in your death Jory would have drank the blood and likely went on to become a Grey Warden. In time, with the proper mentor, Jory likely would have even become a good Grey Warden.



He may never have been a true leader, but that wouldn't have meant Jory would have been any less valuable. I feel sorry for Jory and the fact that he had to die, but I think Duncan did the necessary thing in the situation. It may not have been the "moral" or "right" thing to do, but it was the -necessary- thing to do, and it could easily be argued that because of his actions the PC went on to become a Grey Warden and end the Blight. Had he not killed Jory, allowing him to walk away, he would have done the same for the PC, thus leaving Alister alone to face the Blight and most likely fail.

[DariusKalera]

As soon as you enter an area where you might be attacked at any time then you are in a tactical situation. Tactics is not just how the fight itself is conducted, it is also the manner in which you approach and leave a fight.



The tactically smart thing to do in that situation is to report back that a supply caravan has been attacked. To push forward against an enemy of unknown size and location is foolhardy. If they waited until they actually engaged a massive amount of enemies it would be too late to do anything to save themselves.



Jory was actually the smart one when he said that they should go back. Yeah, he kind of did it in a quivering voice, but it was still the tactically smart thing to do.

[Slayer299]

There was nothing tactically smart about Jory. Did they know that Darkspawn were in the area? The dying scout said so. But just reporting the caravan was attacked was pretty much useless if they all went back.



Tactically smart would have them sending 1 man back to warn Duncan while the others scouted ahead to see what they could find out without engaging the main Darkspawn force(s) You can't react properly to what's out there if you don't know anything about it.

[SithLordExarKun]

Jory was the first one to draw his blade, that would obviously give the idea to anybody in duncans shoes that this guy is going to pick a fight and strike you down.

And jory DID struck first, i just replayed the game.... and while duncan was pressing jory back, that doesn't necessarily mean he had the intention of killing him immediately, it was only when duncan parried the first attack did he actually attack and kill jory...

Think about it, duncan is an extremely formidable fighter, if he truly wished to kill jory the moment jory pulled out his sword, he could have done so very easily rather than pressing jory backwards to the wall.

Although i could see duncan disarming him and not killing him on the spot....

The best thing that could be done in that one situation was to have jory go first, for all we know he may have survived the joining but we will never know as he got himself killed.

Just remember that nobody said duncan was a spotless hero...

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:40 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Sorry went to bed, damn sleep.

The thing I wonder about Jorey is how he won the tournament.  He seems to be the honorbound type of guy, naive in that he actually believes and follows what he thinks knights are supposed to do, while not coming off as the type of guy who wins tournaments often, leading me to wonder if maybe he only won the tournament because the other contestants weren't stupid enough to want to win and took a fall to avoid it.  While he talks about how great an honour it is to be chosen to be a Grey Warden, if you ask him if he abandoned his wife he seems to be in denial, highlighting not only that he has second thoughts but that he may not have really wanted to come in the first place.

Of course this is theory, but both Jorey and Daveth do show second thoughts about going into the Korcari Wilds, and you could argue that Daveth is actually a bit dumb for not being afraid, plus he didn't have so much to lose, especially since if he hadn't been recruited he would be dead anyway and possibly had a little too much faith in Duncan.

It is good that these characters provide such debate as to their motivations and likability, it's a tribute to Bioware that they can write such interesting characters.

Slayer299 wrote...

There was nothing tactically smart about Jory. Did they know that Darkspawn were in the area? The dying scout said so. But just reporting the caravan was attacked was pretty much useless if they all went back.

Tactically smart would have them sending 1 man back to warn Duncan while the others scouted ahead to see what they could find out without engaging the main Darkspawn force(s) You can't react properly to what's out there if you don't know anything about it.

It's not tactically sound to divide up an already undersized force when entering a potentially hostile environment, and they already had advance information about what was in there from the injured guard, information that had Alistair not had the ability to detect Darkspawn should have caused them to turn back.  Alistair did not tell them he had that ability until then, and as the others had no idea just how reliable such a darkspawn detecter was they were rightfully dubious.  Hence Daveth's line "They may kill us all, but at least we'll know they are there when they do" (might not have been quoted correctly but its along those lines).

SithLordExarKun wrote...

And jory DID struck first, i
just replayed the game.... and while duncan was pressing jory back,
that doesn't necessarily mean he had the intention of killing him
immediately, it was only when duncan parried the first attack did he
actually attack and kill jory...

I still hold that he was trying to knock the knife away. but it seems we all see things differently at this point.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:49 .

[sandokas]

If you enter the ritual and back off the penalty is death. Yes, i would have done things diferently. But Duncan felt that even if he let Jory live he eventually would betray the Wardens (even if you could convince him), so he murdered him for the sake of all the Wardens.

You have no idea of other Wardens that had second thoughs and were shown mercy the harm they did afterwards, one way or another.

Modifié par sandokas, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:57 .

[Jahannam]

If he was unarmed maybe I could see it as Duncans bad. Fact is Jory drew first, swung first. Besides he didnt drink the blood. Never know he may have lived to die another day. By doing what he did he made sure he had no chance.



Duncan was the leader of the Grey Wardens with the blight upon them on the eve of battle, what Jory did was mutiny. Its like joining the military, going to a battlefield and saying uh oh..people really die here? Umm on second thought maybe this was a bad idea. Thats just not the way it works.



At least he had a quick death. If I was Duncan I would have taken him prisoner, stuck him in a cage with the other guy in camp and let the blight have their way.

[sandokas]

At least he had a quick death. If I was Duncan I would have taken him prisoner, stuck him in a cage with the other guy in camp and let the blight have their way.

Stuck him in a cage wouldn't work. Either he took part of the ritual or died. There is no turning back.

The point is Duncan thought that even if he would be convinced, by showing doubts wouldn't be fit to be a Warden. The ritual is like a test. If you back off there how will you have the nerve to fight against so much worse?

Once you reach the ritual you passed Rubikan. There is no turning back. If you live knowing about it and are not a undivided full Warden at heart then it is very dangerous to let you live.

[menasure]

no gray warden is a mr nice guy, they could not fight their wars or deal with politicians if they were all that righteous. they're composed of all sort of taints of gray, just like the rest of the world in dragonage and there is an overruling law of conscription which can not be refused ... this opens the door for all kinds of shady characters to enter the circle of wardens. i'm sure duncan could overpower jordy without killing him if he wanted too and have a few options afterward but a veteran warden would be a fanatic after all he's been through for who one more death matters little, whether in self defense or not.

[Lughsan35]

Jory was a ****** in his pants COWARD..every time anything at all bad happened he was all but crying about it...



That anyone here sees what Duncan did as bad shows you are every bit as cowardly as Jory and likely wouldn't survive as a Grey Warden...



Don't like it? Cry to your momma the Warden's couldn't care less about you they have a blight to fight.

[interesting03]

Lughsan35 wrote...

Jory was a ****** in his pants COWARD..every time anything at all bad happened he was all but crying about it...

That anyone here sees what Duncan did as bad shows you are every bit as cowardly as Jory and likely wouldn't survive as a Grey Warden...

Don't like it? Cry to your momma the Warden's couldn't care less about you they have a blight to fight.

He never whined when i snapped that guard's neck out in the woods. I always found that strange, afterall it's probably the worst thing you can do in ostagar, besides killing that prisoner.

Modifié par interesting03, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:39 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Lughsan35 wrote...

Jory was a ****** in his pants COWARD..every time anything at all bad happened he was all but crying about it...

That anyone here sees what Duncan did as bad shows you are every bit as cowardly as Jory and likely wouldn't survive as a Grey Warden...

Don't like it? Cry to your momma the Warden's couldn't care less about you they have a blight to fight.

Was the personal attacks on people with a differing opinion from your own really warranted?  Are you that insecure in yourself that you need to react in such a way?  We were having a nice discussion on how we perceive a part of the game, thanks for ruining it.

[Jonfon_ire]

It was Duncan's fault IMO. Not for killing Jory particularly but for choosing him and letting him get to that stage at all. Jory obviously wasn't Warden material, Duncan really should have spotted that and decided before the Wilds quest that Jory wasn't up to the job and told him to report to the Kings army instead. Sending Jory out on a mission with 2 other promising recruits and your newest warden was almost penalising the rest of us for Duncans poor initial choice.

Plus if Jory hadn't gone with us maybe Bioware would have given us Dog early instead to fill that slot, he'd have been far more useful than Jory.

That anyone here sees what Duncan did as bad shows you are every bit as cowardly as Jory and likely wouldn't survive as a Grey Warden...

Bah. I'd make a wonderful Grey Warden damn your eyes. Web Developer is a skill highly prized when fighting the Blight and Darkspawn, right?

Modifié par Jonfon_ire, 25 novembre 2009 - 11:02 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

interesting03 wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...

Jory was a ****** in his pants COWARD..every time anything at all bad happened he was all but crying about it...

That anyone here sees what Duncan did as bad shows you are every bit as cowardly as Jory and likely wouldn't survive as a Grey Warden...

Don't like it? Cry to your momma the Warden's couldn't care less about you they have a blight to fight.

He never whined when i snapped that guard's neck out in the woods. I always found that strange, afterall it's probably the worst thing you can do in ostagar, besides killing that prisoner.

Yeah, he didn't whine when I stabbed the guy. I didn't find it strange at all. Do you really think a coward would start whining when someone just stabs someone in cold blood because they're wasting his time... would Jory really want to complain?

[SithLordExarKun]

Would it be better if jory was the first person to drink the dark spawn blood?



Even if he died i don't think daveth would have backed out, he didn't seem afraid of dying and was strangely optimistic in the wilds when alistar stated he can sense dark spawn.

[pmpage]

I expect that Ducan killed Jory purely because he's used to dealing with unwilling & uncooperative recruits. Don't forget that the Grey Wardens have been used to the Rite of Conscription, and over time I'm sure it's become their standard practice to murder those who are unwilling to resist the final step to ensure their secrets are maintained.

[Slayer299]

Flintlock I disagree with you there. But I do agree that dividing your forces can lead to a disaster is true, however that was not the case. They would have been splitting off *1* man of a four-man team. The purpose of a scout is to find out as much as possible about the enemy without (or nearly so) being discovered because when you get back your commander is going to want to know what types of enemy did you see, estimated numbers, etc. So telling him, "well i know they're out there because the dying archer we ran into said so" is pretty useless.

But we're also getting way off topic here so I'll end it for me.

P.S. - Jory still had to die because he was a cowardly little **** and not reliable there at all.

Modifié par Slayer299, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:36 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Slayer299 wrote...

P.S. - Jory still had to die because he was a cowardly little **** and not reliable there at all.

Jorey would so kick your arse boy!

As for the rest, we'll agree to disagree.

*Orders Gorim to arrange Slayer's public killing*

[Dark83]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I still hold that he was trying to knock the knife away. but it seems we all see things differently at this point.

It's irrelevant, though.
When someone swings a few feet of sharpened steel at you, at a close enough range to hit you, you'd be dead if your instincts were "is he just tapping my hand, or trying to kill me?"
If these were guns, nobody gives a **** if you "meant to fire a warning shot" - you just "missed" right before you got put down.

In modern Law Enforcement, a police officer is considered in imminent danger if you are in posession of a knife within a radius of 30 feet. Which means they can shoot you with impunity, as it will always be considered justified. That's for any schmuck with a knife. This is a warrior with a sword well within 10 feet. You don't **** around at those distances.

[Dark83]

Slayer299 wrote...

Flintlock I disagree with you there. But I do agree that dividing your forces can lead to a disaster is true, however that was not the case. They would have been splitting off *1* man of a four-man team.

Don't be silly. They just sent the 5th (rescued) guy back home.
You still have your squad.

The Gray Wardens go in small teams into the Deep Roads. Jory would ****** his pants to be in the area the unnamed Wardens were in when you see them in the Dwarf Noble origin.

[GoldenusG]

If Jory were truly a coward, he'd have legged it while you were out in the wilds. My interpretation, is that the darkspawn, being thought to be extinct, have been built up into fiery demons of the pit, and a single one can topple mountains. Jory believes - because he's been told since he was a sprog, the the darkspawn are unstoppable.



A true hero, is not a man who is too stupid to be scared, rather a man who fights even though he's scared. I like to think Jory would quite happily charge into a camp of Dalish girly-men, or a legion of Orlesian Chevaliérs, but darkspawn? Nuh-uhh.

[Dark83]

GoldenusG wrote...

If Jory were truly a coward, he'd have legged it while you were out in the wilds.

Don't be silly. If you were scared of the spooky boogeymen lurking in the area - why would you run away from your comarades?

[Ginnerben]

I have to say, I hadn't even seen this as a complex issue. Executing deserters seems commonly accepted within this world. Call it "murder" if you want, but that only works out of context.



I think its easiest to think of GWs as similar to the Dwarven Legion - They're already dead. As Duncan says, it takes some people earlier than others. Once you sign up for the Wardens, you're signing your life away. You may live 5 minutes (Honestly, if he'd been forced to drink and died in the very next fight would it have been any different?) or you may live 20 years. Either way, at a time of war (Blight) the Wardens are reacting perfectly reasonably in killing him. If they'd let him go, what would you (the PC) done? "Oh, well... This bloods killed 1 already. Since there's a nice easy way out, I'm going off with my friend Jory. Is King Cailan recruiting? Seems much easier there"

[bjdbwea]

I can't believe you are still going on about "Jory swung first". Once more: He only "drew his gun" because his life was threatened by a man approaching him with a glass full of poison. That ALREADY put Jory in a position of having a right to self defense. Which includes drawing your "gun", threatening to use it and if necessary pulling the trigger. Duncan created that situation, forfeiting any right to self defense against his victim's struggle.



A police officer would usually not want to force deadly poison down someone's throat in the first place.

[Cursek]

I can't believe this is even a discussion.



No matter how it went, once you're a recruit, you become a Warden or you die, period.



Jory had 0 choice the moment his dumb ass went so far out of his way to get recruited to the Wardens.