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[Cursek]

Dark83 wrote...

GoldenusG wrote...

If Jory were truly a coward, he'd have legged it while you were out in the wilds.

Don't be silly. If you were scared of the spooky boogeymen lurking in the area - why would you run away from your comarades?

He almost did pansy out, until the rest of the team calmed his punk ass down.

[Dark83]

Duncan never tried to "force" "deadly poison" down anyone's throat. He merely held out the cup insistently - a cup full of liquid that he had drunk, Alistair had drunk, and every Grey Warden that had ever existed had drunk.

[numak666]

Duncan is a sick maniac.

[Ginnerben]

numak666 wrote...

Duncan is a sick maniac.

No doubt, considering he had only a few months to live due to the taint, "sick maniac" probably fits.

[Ariella]

[quote]gotlucky wrote...

[quote]Ariella wrote...

[quote]gotlucky wrote...

Also, Duncan was never honest about the joining. Yes he did say one could die, but he never said it was random. It had nothing to do with skill or desire, it was just pure luck. I can understand why Jory would say "the hell with this".
[/quote]

Duncan was as honest as he could afford to people in a land where the Wardens had been gone for 200 or so years. Plus the idea of an uneducated common people knowing that the Joining involved drinking any blood at all, let alone darkspawn blood which is KNOWN to kill or worse. They'd be burned as witches for certain.


[quote]
I also don't care that Jory was deserting. Desertion is just another word for ending a contract, except that in this case the military doesn't like it so they threaten you with death. I don't care what you want to call it, but saying that you have the right to enslave someone to do your bidding is just wrong.

[/quote]

Tell that to your comrades in arms who you walk away from on the battlefield. And even today, desertion in most militaries is enough to get you the death sentence if they catch you. So, calling this "severing a contract" is bull.

Jory had been told several times that this was the Point of No Return. Once you're recruited or conscripted your old life is over, and you are with the Wardens, period. Honestly, though it doesn't even come down to who drew first. It's what Jory SAYS before he's killed: "there is no glory in this." He wanted glory, which is why he wanted to be a Grey Warden, but that's not what the Grey Wardens are. If it takes a Grey Warden striking an archdemon alone, in the dark, without recognition of his achievement, that's what will be done, because it is ending the blight that is all, not the glory in it.

I'm surprised Jory survived his knight training, let alone was able to convince Duncan to recruit him. I know jack about the guy and could tell he was a flawed blade that was going to break from the moment one. Either Duncan was desperate and hoped that maybe Jory had hidden depths or he was desperate. Of the two, I'd rather had Daveth than Jory at my back, but I'm a pragmatic bitca.

[/quote]
[quote]
What I say also stands for modern times.  I'm going to try to make my point but I also want to be a little vague (I really do not think this is the place for politics).  We used to have conscription in America - more commonly known as "the draft".  It was morally wrong.  It doesn't matter whether the wars it was used for were justified, what matters is people were enslaved (more commonly referred to as conscripted) into fighting.  It is one's own choice whether or not they join the military, not whatever political faction is in power.
[/quote]

Jory wasn't conscripted. He did his damnest to impress Duncan so he could BECOME a Grey Warden, so your conscription argument means nothing in context of the game. Jory was complaing that MORE was being expected of him and that he had already "earned his place" (his words). As for the whole concept of conscription as enslavement... Tell that to nations that have a term of compulsory military service as part of their citizenship requirement. Many nations do not have the manpower to have an army made up of those who choose to serve freely.  And the draft is one one the ways any government fulfills one of its most basic functions (protection of its people) when it doesn't have any other way of raising manpower numbers. It's part of the give and take of citizenship.

Second, this isn't the modern age.

[quote]
If someone does not want to fight in a war, fire them.  Tell them to gtfo and never come back, it is their own choice what they do with themselves.  Now, it's a real **** move to desert in the field of battle, just like it's a **** move to be a waiter at a restaurant and be a no call no show...just the consequences in war are much more serious than in life as a civilian.
[/quote]

Jory wasn't even a civilian prior to his recruitment (which was he WANTED), Jory was a knight in service. That's not a civilian.

[quote]

And the thing is Jory didn't desert in the field of battle.  He had already shown himself prone to being scared but an apt fighter nonetheless.  He decided Russian Roulette was not the way he wanted to join a secret organization.  He had already shown himself able to risk his life, just not in a game of chance.
[/quote]

Desertion isn't just on the field. It's attempting to  leave during any point in a time of war.


[quote]
Also, in response to saying that referring to calling desertion "severing contract" is bull....You might want to try a real argument on that one.  Just because there is a law saying it can be punished by death.  Well, the law says a lotta things people disagree with.  There's a reason why politics is one of the things you don't bring up with people, and that's because people disagree with many current laws.  And don't forget how different the laws are between the states in America, nevermind America's and the rest of the world's.  The laws vary so much from country to country that to just blindly say "well the law says such and such so I'm right"...well try a more reasoned argument please.
[/quote]


There's a difference between political and the law. As a citizen of the United States you have both certain rights and responsibilities under the law. But just because you disagree with a law doesn't mean you have the right to violate it. Law applies to everyone within that nation.

And it isn't severing a contract. Jory didn't say, okay, I'm signing with you guys for a term of so many weeks etc" he said I want to bhe a Grey Warden, which he knew was a lifetime commitment and knew it meant severing ties with his family. He also knew it was dangerous, especially since he was specifically recruited during a Blight.  In short Jory was a gloryhound and an idiot, and got what he deserved.

[Meldread]

I still don't understand why people insist on this being a black and white issue. Those who claim Duncan acted in "pure" self-defense are wrong, because Duncan was trying to force Jory to drink poisoned blood. Jory just witnessed someone writhing around in agony before dropping dead drinking from that same cup. His reaction was understandable.



Jory draws his weapon and becomes unreasonable and irrational at that point, as would virtually everyone reading this post here would have done. I call BS on anyone who claims they would have wanted to drink that stuff after watching Daveth take a dirt nap. Duncan draws his dagger to defend himself because it is clear that Jory is willing to do anything to get out of drinking the poison. He's even willing to kill Duncan, if that's what it takes.



Whether or not you believe Jory was trying to disarm Duncan is irrelevant. Had he disarmed Duncan then he would have been in danger from Jory, as his next swing likely would have been aimed at Duncan's head. Jory was clearly in complete and total freak out mode as would virtually any person would be at that point.



When Jory swung his blade, which I saw as the equivalent of a warning shot being fired from a gun, a "don't come any closer!" type of move... it was clear that he was willing to fight. It was clear that he wasn't going to drink. So he was deserting and Duncan shanked him. Duncan clearly didn't want to do it and felt remorse, but had he not done that the PC would have almost certainly followed Jory and told Duncan he could shove that chalice of poisoned blood where the sun don't shine. When Duncan killed Jory it made it clear: YOU HAVE NO CHOICE. Duncan said this previously, but in killing Jory he backed those words up with action.



Thus, the PC drinks the blood and becomes a Grey Warden. I believe had Jory drank the blood he would have lived. I don't believe Duncan's choice in Jory was misplaced. He was a recruit, you can't understate this fact enough. He wasn't a full Grey Warden. He had never seen a Darkspawn before, and his view of the Grey Wardens was colored by the heroic tales he heard. Everything Jory did was completely understandable. All one has to do is put themselves in Jory's shoes and it's easy to understand him. Jory is perhaps the most relate-able character out there, the character most like virtually everyone playing the game.



Who wouldn't be afraid going into the Wilds knowing what Jory knew and believed? Who wouldn't be afraid coming upon a group of seasoned soldiers torn to shreds, with one last survivor barely hanging on to dear life... who promptly tells you that there is a horde of Darkspawn out there... knowing Darkspawn only from tales and nightmares as a child. Who wouldn't be afraid? Jory voices those fears and is labeled a coward for it, but I don't think Jory is a coward in that situation - he's completely human. He would have only been a coward had he turned around and fled, he didn't he went on with the others...



Had Duncan and the other Grey Wardens under him had not died in the battle, I believe Jory would have had the proper training, assuming he had lived through the Joining. He would have eventually gone on to become a decent Grey Warden. He may never have been another Duncan, but I think he would have had been good enough to make the cut. He would have at least been as good as Alister; a clear follower. I don't blame Duncan for choosing him... if Duncan can be blamed for anything, it's for not understanding the fragile state Jory was in and therefore making him go first. Watching Daveth go down the way he did was just too much for Jory to handle.

[Dtelm]

What I don't get is how there are 16 pages of this nonsense. To some, duncan's actions were justified, and to others, they were completly unreasonable.



Deal with it. The grey wardens arent all saints. Duncan wasn't, at least. He was a senior grey warden who knows what hangs in the balance, and what will happen if they cannot defeat the archdemon. He is willing to do whatever it takes, moral or otherwise.



Whether you think killing jory was right is completly irrelevant. Duncan clearly thought it was the right thing to do.

[thegreymeister]

Think of it as karma, Duncan killed Jory, only to be killed by Darkspawn when Loghain retreated from the battle. If you look at it that way, if you choose to kill Loghain using Allistar's logic of revenge, then you yourself deserve to be stabbed later for perpetuating the cycle of violence. If you truly believe Jory did not deserve his fate, you can honor this by not killing Loghain later on as that breaks the cycle.



Enjoy your daily moment of Zen, DA:O style

[mysticforce42]

thegreymeister wrote...

Think of it as karma, Duncan killed Jory, only to be killed by Darkspawn when Loghain retreated from the battle. If you look at it that way, if you choose to kill Loghain using Allistar's logic of revenge, then you yourself deserve to be stabbed later for perpetuating the cycle of violence. If you truly believe Jory did not deserve his fate, you can honor this by not killing Loghain later on as that breaks the cycle.

Enjoy your daily moment of Zen, DA:O style

Not quite.

Karma rarely works well when there's a horde of omnicidal maniacs on the loose.  Or, at the very least, even if karma does eventually unleash its cyclical wrath on said horde, it'd be far too late for anyone who, you know, aren't at all interested in getting grusomely murdered by said horde.

Modifié par mysticforce42, 25 novembre 2009 - 11:19 .

[thegreymeister]

I would argue that it works especially well when there is a horde on the loose.

Of course, that would depend on how you feel your decisions reflected on the outcome of your game, personally mine worked out very neatly if you consider the actions characters took.