384 réponses à ce sujet

[Deviija]

I don't disagree. I've been grumping about this very thing since watching the Joining happen. The more I see Duncan in action within the Origins, the more I have come to loathe him as a character.

What purpose was Jory's death? So what if Jory wanted to back out from the Joining. Duncan didn't need to shank the knight, for Maker's sake. Duncan talks a big game about fighting darkspawn and duty, but what purpose did that serve? None. It was a waste of a very highly trained knight that could have served in the King's army instead of being recruited into the Grey Wardens. Plus, Jory had a new wife and baby to think about. There's no shame in not wanting to possibly DIE from drinking a cup of darkspawn blood versus possibly dying on a battlefield where you are more in control of your own fate.

Jory drew his sword, but never did the cinematics show him being the one that drew his sword and went crazy berserk/made aggressive steps to Duncan. It definitely was NOT how Duncan paints it out to the Playercharacter after the Joining, when you tell him that you can't believe he killed Jory. Duncan paints it like he was doing it in self-defense of a raving lunatic. Jory wasn't that at all. If the animators/scene designers really wanted the audience to feel sympathetic and agreeable with Duncan, they should have had Jory lose his mind and immediately draw his sword and attack Duncan/Alistair/or PC.

A scared, cringing man that is backing away, wanting to run, with sword unsteadily being drawn out of fear is NOT a threat. Unless you make him one. Which Duncan did. Tis not justifiable in any way, IMO.

Modifié par Deviija, 22 novembre 2009 - 06:20 .

[Joie de Combat]

bjdbwea wrote...

But in any case that still doesn't change the fact it was murder. Just because Duncan as a person or the Grey Wardens as a (semi) private organization think their secrets are important enough to kill for, doesn't change how this would have to be judged from a legal perspective, does it? And given that the Wardens were even banned from the lands until not long ago, I don't think there would be any laws giving them a license to kill anyone they deem necessary? Correct me if I'm wrong, I only know my lore from what's given in the game.

I expect that it is in fact included in the Right of Conscription, which the Wardens certainly have as it's one of the main ways your PC can end up being recruited. In fact, it's probably one of the reasons that the Right of Conscription allows them to claim criminals who are facing execution.

[grossebaff]

dont forget that grey warden are above the law... the conscript law allow them to force conscript even a king if they want...

Modifié par grossebaff, 22 novembre 2009 - 06:21 .

[SeanMurphy2]

I think ultimately Jory would have to drink from the cup or be killed. Duncan can't let him run away hysterically into the King's camp.



If he had not drawn his sword and backed away. Maybe there would be an opportunity to talk him down into accepting his duty. But with swords drawn, Duncan is not going to stand there for 10 minutes pleading with him to drink.

[Pyroclase]

He should have read the small print....

[Suron]

grossebaff wrote...

dont forget that grey warden are above the law... the conscript law allow them to force conscript even a king if they want...

nope..prince/princesses down...read the loading screens..they can't conscript a king..it states clearly...lowly->princes..not above.

it is said that they serve the king and are above a lot/most laws..but they can't conscript a king..again..a loading screen in game..confirms that

[Akka le Vil]

UbiquitousGrue wrote...

I don't. Disagree, that is. I suppose he might have felt Jory would have let slip the truth about the Joining to other people, which might mean a lot less people willing to become Grey Wardens. But as presented, his reaction didn't make much sense.

The whole "less people will want to be Grey Warden if they know !" is dumb. Just dumb.
The people who would be driven away from joining the Grey Warden are the people you would NOT want as Grey Warden anyway. So why the secrecy ? It has seriously no point.

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Jory shot first.

[Suron]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I think ultimately Jory would have to drink from the cup or be killed. Duncan can't let him run away hysterically into the King's camp.

If he had not drawn his sword and backed away. Maybe there would be an opportunity to talk him down into accepting his duty. But with swords drawn, Duncan is not going to stand there for 10 minutes pleading with him to drink.

well most are pointing out though the fact that Jory was not the aggressor..Duncan was...and everyong is coming to Duncan's beards defense saying Jory attacked first..jory was the aggressor..etc...when in fact he wasn't...as was stated so well above..he was scared..backing away..and drew his sword out of fear...not aggression..and he did swing at Duncan first sure....however as I stated if you actually watch the cutscene without blind devotion to Duncan  you'd see that Duncan made it obvious by drawing his dagger and saying there was no turning back...followed by advancing on Jory...that Jory was the only one defending anything..even if he did swing first...as I said..it was obvious Duncan wasn't advancing towards him to cut him a slice of bread

[UbiquitousGrue]

Akka le Vil wrote...

UbiquitousGrue wrote...

I
don't. Disagree, that is. I suppose he might have felt Jory would
have let slip the truth about the Joining to other people, which might
mean a lot less people willing to become Grey Wardens. But as
presented, his reaction didn't make much sense.

The whole "less people will want to be Grey Warden if they know !" is dumb. Just dumb.
The
people who would be driven away from joining the Grey Warden are the
people you would NOT want as Grey Warden anyway. So why the secrecy ?
It has seriously no point.

Hey, it's not my setting lore. Heh.
Realistically, it doesn't make much sense, since an actual recruit in that setting might be extremely resentful of the whole situation and act accordingly; as a quick explanation in the game narrative, where the PC is limited in options, it has to suffice.

Modifié par UbiquitousGrue, 22 novembre 2009 - 06:32 .

[Suron]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

Jory shot first.

lol, nice one.

[Aldandil]

bjdbwea wrote...

MFCell wrote...

I guess you are missing the fact that the reason he gets killed is for knowing the secret of the Joining, and secondly for refusing to take the drink.

I imagine if he had just up and left before the Joining, it wouldn't be nearly the problem it was. However, to learn the secret of the Joining and THEN decide it was to high a risk, is not an option.

So you don't think that secret would come out anyway? In BioWare's writing it might be possible to keep that secret for so long, but in reality it would not be. But in any case that still doesn't change the fact it was murder. Just because Duncan as a person or the Grey Wardens as a (semi) private organization think their secrets are important enough to kill for, doesn't change how this would have to be judged from a legal perspective, does it? And given that the Wardens were even banned from the lands until not long ago, I don't think there would be any laws giving them a license to kill anyone they deem necessary? Correct me if I'm wrong, I only know my lore from what's given in the game.

The reasonable explanation for the legal issues should be that Grey Warden recruits are considered to be under Grey Warden "law", because clearly, no one has previously gone looking for dead recruits. Is this unrealistic? Maybe, but it's not too big a piece to swallow. I mean, you would have thought that someone would find it strange that a third or so of the Grey Warden recruits die shortly after joining, and that that would deter people just as much as knowing that you are forced to drink Darkspawn blood, but it's not beyond all belief that the law would look the other way.

[MFCell]

Akka le Vil wrote...

UbiquitousGrue wrote...

I don't. Disagree, that is. I suppose he might have felt Jory would have let slip the truth about the Joining to other people, which might mean a lot less people willing to become Grey Wardens. But as presented, his reaction didn't make much sense.

The whole "less people will want to be Grey Warden if they know !" is dumb. Just dumb.
The people who would be driven away from joining the Grey Warden are the people you would NOT want as Grey Warden anyway. So why the secrecy ? It has seriously no point.

Bold for specific direction of post:

No one in thier right mind in Ferelden is going to accept Blight tainted ANYTHING, for any reason, as far as most assumptions are concerned.  There is NO reason, AT ALL, to assume that if everyone in Ferelden knew that the Wardens were all tainted, they wouldn't be exiled, hunted and killed, in the EXACT same way apostates and maleficar are...

Anora knowing the Wardens make "heavy sacrifices" does not prove that the Joining is somehow common knowledge.

Modifié par MFCell, 22 novembre 2009 - 06:31 .

[Naltair]

The Grey wardens don't really care about justice they care about ending the blight by any means needed. Duncan is a good man but he is a Grey warden first and foremost and I am pretty sure killing Jory was not his first rodeo. He is quite aware of the score and if I was in Duncan's shoes in his role I would have done the same. His duty to the Grey wardens demands it. Alistair goes with it because he has gone through it, he knows what he has sacrificed. It may seem out of character for him but I think he knows that there is no turning back.



I think people, even in game characters make the wardens out to be some noble order of heroes when they are not. They are men and women who have dedicated themselves to ending blights and killing Darkspawn. That is their only purpose. And they do it by any means possible.

[SeanMurphy2]

I think Duncan was ruthless in that scene. I don't think it was self defence since Duncan probably could beat him easily.



Duncan may have sensed that he could not convince Jory to drink. So he needed to be killed. May as well do it quickly in hotblood.

[dannythefool]

You're all thinking too much about this. It's a plot element to explain why you have to be a grey warden.

[GoldenusG]

Jory: I'm not drinking.

Duncan: Drink.

Jory: No.

(Duncan kills Jory).





Regardless of who struck first, Duncan didn't try hard to get Jory to sip beastie-blood. You'd think it would have made more sense to try and talk him into it rather than Drink or die, DRINK-OR-DIE!!!



I'd have liked an option that Jory was forced/intimidated/persuaded to drink by the PC, then deserted before the battle, you then kill him in Redcliff or somesuch.

[Dragosunsoar]

i wonder how he even became a knight he's to much a coward he got what he deserved

[BluesMan1956]

Jory was planning to run away, then come back in the dead of night and murder Duncan in his sleep. Duncan used his spidey sense to sense this, so it was self defense.

[Akka le Vil]

MFCell wrote...

Bold for specific direction of post:

No one in thier right mind in Ferelden is going to accept Blight tainted ANYTHING, for any reason, as far as most assumptions are concerned.  There is NO reason, AT ALL, to assume that if everyone in Ferelden knew that the Wardens were all tainted, they wouldn't be exiled, hunted and killed, in the EXACT same way apostates and maleficar are...

Anora knowing the Wardens make "heavy sacrifices" does not prove that the Joining is somehow common knowledge.

Well, I wasn't talking about telling the specifics of the Joining. That is a secret that should be kept, and for even more reasons than just fearing that people will look badly on the Warden.

I was rather saying about the general knowledge that "Joining can kill you". Just tell that the Joining is a very dangerous rite that allow the Grey Warden to have special powers to fight the Darkspawns, but can kill you. Here, that is. No misdriven people knocking at the wrong door, the ones who join are the ones ready to risk their lives. And when you're going to spend your remaining days fighting Darkspawns, I think you aren't really interested in getting people who are NOT ready to risk their lives.

The whole "less people will want to join !" is absurd. It goes completely to the opposite of the whole "Grey Wardens look only for the best". If they look for the best, why bother trying to attract more people that don't fit the criteria ?

[Dragosunsoar]

lol i think your right

[MBirkhofer]

Obliterati wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Except that Jory swung first.

Did he swing first?  I'll have to replay that scene, my memory's a little fuzzy, but I seem to recall Jory drawing first, but not making any threatening moves towards the Wardens...he was trying to back away, wasn't he?

Replaying the game does put the Joining in a new light, once you finish.  Alistars reactions at the end as well for example.  Remember the Wardens Oath that Alistar states. 

As for Jory and Duncan specifically.
Jory backs away, and draws his blade.  Backs into a wall.  Duncan insists there is no going back.  Draws his blade and steps up to Jory.  Jory swings weakly, Duncan blocks it, and stabs Jory in the chest.

[GoldenusG]

Dragosunsoar wrote...

i wonder how he even became a knight he's to much a coward he got what he deserved

He wasn't a coward.  He wasn't suicidally brave though.  Only an insane man would face even the odds in the Wilds without worry, and that was not even an initiation. Maker only imagine how crazy things would get.

Remember he was brought up to believe the darkspawn were nigh on indestructable demons of hell who would quite happily kill everyone and their ancestors (not that that bit of this rhetoric makes any sense, but still).

Then he's told he has to drink the tainted blood of these demons, becoming part-darkspawn.  ARE YOU INSANE???

He likely would have made a good peace-time Warden, but it was asking him too much, too soon.

[SeanMurphy2]

I think it is effective for story reasons to show the alternate outcomes. You can die from drinking the darkspawn blood so it is a big deal. And you can't refuse to drink or you will be killed.



The Jory scene can't be too drawn out, like having Jory and Duncan having a long argument. And they don't want to have Duncan execute a wimpering defenceless Jory in cold blood.

[Unbroken Lineage]

Since he wasn't Joining, he had to be killed to keep the Joining secret. Full stop.