384 réponses à ce sujet

[Garagnoir]

Poor Jory, lord knows where he was hiding that sword as I had stripped him down and hocked all of his stuff... Duncan was right to kill him, all running around naked with a sword up his butt, the dude was obviously psycho.

[GoldenusG]

The whole "less people will want to join !" is absurd. It goes completely to the opposite of the whole "Grey Wardens look only for the best". If they look for the best, why bother trying to attract more people that don't fit the criteria ?

Numbers.  They didn't have enough in Fereldan, so they recruited Either the best (The PC), or anyone good with a blade who volunteered (Jory).  Or had the bad luck to be in the wrong place, in the wrong pocket, at the wrong time.

[Lesterkan]

I am not here to defend anyone. I think the fact that this has stirred up a discussion has proven the success of this game. This game captures your emotion... I started by playing a mage being treated with all sort of prejudice. Was forced to take on the Harrowing and if fail you will die. If not the Harrowing, then you will be transformed to an non-emotional robot as a tranquil.



Then I tried to help Jowan, a friend, to escape and was caught. Lily's, Jowan's lover, life was ruined and I almost got myself killed if it is not for Duncan. It all started from a very gloomy world for me, but nothing perpared me for Jory's death.....



All I can say is that it is a good game which touches your emotion and stirs up strong feelings (at least to me that is). It's not a game for the faint hearted.

[Kendaric Varkellen]

When Jory refused to drink he was basically viewed as deserter and punished accordingly. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Thedas is largely based on medieval european cultures after all and medieval laws were pretty unforgiving in that regard.

[bjdbwea]

Joie de Combat wrote...



I expect that it is in fact included in the Right of Conscription, which the Wardens certainly have as it's one of the main ways your PC can end up being recruited. In fact, it's probably one of the reasons that the Right of Conscription allows them to claim criminals who are facing execution.

Right, I didn't think of that. It's probable that these treaties would indeed put anyone under the exclusive jurisdiction of the Wardens. Therefore, if we assume such a thing possible (it wouldn't be in our times), Duncan's action may have been legal / go unchallenged. He still clearly didn't act in self defense, though, and the killing remains counterproductive in my view.



I understand why BioWare constructed the cutscene this way, in fact I anticipated from the beginning that the story would demand one or probably both of the other recruits to die. But as others have pointed out, this scene could've been done better. But more importantly, I don't want anyone to shrug it off like that, especially not my PC. At one time, Alistair asks my PC what they think about Duncan. I can't even bring this up there.

[Trelow-LMG]

Duty before honor.

[Jayndoe]

You are thinking of these weapons in context of them being what they are in this day in age. Instead, look at the situation as a modern day militia with a very specific cause that just happens to be endorsed by the government. See it as Jory and Duncan holding guns. Jory being a police officer (Knight) and Duncan being the leader of the group in the region.



Jory draws his gun first and starts babbling in severe distress out of fear for his life and his family. In this day in age, that is an act of aggression. It is permitable to Duncan to pull out a weapon as well. In... yes, self-defense. Duncan simply states "There is no going back." while the other guy starts blubbering. There was plenty of explanation behind this... of why there is no turning back. Especially with the whole rite of conscription. I'm sure if Jory put away his weapon, Duncan would have stood down as well, but yes, as he approached (which is also an aggressive act) with his gun drawn)... Jory did swing at him and Duncan repelled the blow and then did his stabby stabby routine.



Now, I'm not saying that this wasn't a bit jarring to me, it was. I'm not even saying that it isn't morally grey, because it most certainly is. But if there is a past issue here in the books that convey a feeling of 1) no person gets out of the Joining once they are this far and know key secrets of the organization 2) issues past of recruits trying to kill senior Grey Wardens because they freak out because they didn't know what they are getting into. Maybe it would have been better to just have Jory go postal and go down swinging to convey those situations or maybe the dire need for secrecy could have been better communicated. I don't know.



I used the replacement for guns to show a better sense of aggression that gets lost as we are not a society that uses swords or daggers as primary weapons. When someone draws a gun, however, its serious business. The same feeling is to be understood in the game society with respect to the melee weapons.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

The Grey Wardens need the support of the rulers. If the Blight comes, they need the rulers to let them do their thing. If everyone knew that the Grey Wardens were tainted by the Blight and akin to darkspawn themselves, it is highly likely that a mass panic would result, calling for their deaths or, at best, exile. That's not a guaranteed reaction, but a highly likely one.

Now, if that did happen, then the Blight would go unchallenged as the masses have no idea how to bring down an Archdemon. The Wardens need to act with care and secrecy, hence the "no going back" clause. They need to maintain the dark secrets of their order for the sake of all, and killing the people who whine about the Joining procedure is at least efficient. I honestly don't think Duncan took any pleasure in the act; he did apologize and I think that was sincere.

You can argue that it's all guesswork at best, and it is, of course. But look what happened when Loghain turned on the Wardens. Ferelden got insanely lucky that Flemeth was on the ball.

And also, Duncan always says that there is no going back from becoming a Warden in the Origins. It's not like Duncan locked the door behind Jory and taunted "DRINK OR DIE!!! Na-na-na-na-na-nah!" Jory flashed his blade, proving he was willing to fight to get out of the Joining. Duncan reminded him there was no going back, and then did what he had to do.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:01 .

[Dragosunsoar]

Garagnoir wrote...

Poor Jory, lord knows where he was hiding that sword as I had stripped him down and hocked all of his stuff... Duncan was right to kill him, all running around naked with a sword up his butt, the dude was obviously psycho.

i did the same and also confused where he pulled the sword from

[Dragosunsoar]

perhaps baby jory will seek revenge

[MFCell]

Jayndoe wrote...

You are thinking of these weapons in context of them being what they are in this day in age. Instead, look at the situation as a modern day militia with a very specific cause that just happens to be endorsed by the government. See it as Jory and Duncan holding guns. Jory being a police officer (Knight) and Duncan being the leader of the group in the region.

Jory draws his gun first and starts babbling in severe distress out of fear for his life and his family. In this day in age, that is an act of aggression. It is permitable to Duncan to pull out a weapon as well. In... yes, self-defense. Duncan simply states "There is no going back." while the other guy starts blubbering. There was plenty of explanation behind this... of why there is no turning back. Especially with the whole rite of conscription. I'm sure if Jory put away his weapon, Duncan would have stood down as well, but yes, as he approached (which is also an aggressive act) with his gun drawn)... Jory did swing at him and Duncan repelled the blow and then did his stabby stabby routine.

Now, I'm not saying that this wasn't a bit jarring to me, it was. I'm not even saying that it isn't morally grey, because it most certainly is. But if there is a past issue here in the books that convey a feeling of 1) no person gets out of the Joining once they are this far and know key secrets of the organization 2) issues past of recruits trying to kill senior Grey Wardens because they freak out because they didn't know what they are getting into. Maybe it would have been better to just have Jory go postal and go down swinging to convey those situations or maybe the dire need for secrecy could have been better communicated. I don't know.

I used the replacement for guns to show a better sense of aggression that gets lost as we are not a society that uses swords or daggers as primary weapons. When someone draws a gun, however, its serious business. The same feeling is to be understood in the game society with respect to the melee weapons.

I quite like the way you put all that. Infact, as someone who feels the same way you do, I still feel like your explanation is a worthewhile and enlightening read.

Modifié par MFCell, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:00 .

[MFCell]

Dragosunsoar wrote...

perhaps baby jory will seek revenge

On baby Duncan of course.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

I loved watching Duncan gut that coward like a pig, laughed out IRL to that genious of a scene and instantly fell in love with dragon age. It was epic!

[Dragosunsoar]

MFCell wrote...

Dragosunsoar wrote...

perhaps baby jory will seek revenge

On baby Duncan of course.

 lmao of course

[Dragosunsoar]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

I loved watching Duncan gut that coward like a pig, laughed out IRL to that genious of a scene and instantly fell in love with dragon age. It was epic!

me to

[SeanMurphy2]

I don't think they would want people to know about it.

You have a percentage chance of dying in the ritual. And it is out of your control. It is not some beast you fight physically. It is like gambling with your life.

The percentage of deaths might be quite high. If it was 50%, a lot of people woud not take that chance.

Also it is better for people not to know what they will have to do. Otherwise they are going to worry about it for weeks beforehand. Rather than focusing on the present tasks. And you may have last minute deserters the night before the ritual.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:09 .

[Akka le Vil]

GoldenusG wrote...

Numbers.  They didn't have enough in Fereldan, so they recruited Either the best (The PC), or anyone good with a blade who volunteered (Jory).  Or had the bad luck to be in the wrong place, in the wrong pocket, at the wrong time.

Your numbers don't grow if you kill people because they are unfit, you know. And people can run away if they don't have the strong dedication required.
My point is that there is no point in getting unfit people for the Joining. They will either freak out and you'll have to kill them, either drink at sword's point and likely abandon the fight later when the occasion arise.

If you need people dedicated enough to spend their lives fighting the darkspawns, there is no point in concealing that the Joining can be lethal - if someone isn't ready to die, he isn't ready to fight the Darkspawns.
It could even enhance the glory and the political leverage of the Wardens : "we really do huge sacrifices to save you, so respect us".

[jeodeft]

I'd consider what Jory did to be desertion in a time of war and that's an offense punishable by execution (just talk to the prisoner). Duncan just carried out the sentence immediately. Duncan said many times there was no backing out and that the ritual was dangerous and could end in your death. Jory just chose not to listen.



It'd be like the recruiter telling you that you could end up dead or injured in Iraq but deciding you don't want to go just as your getting on the plane. And if you tried to draw a gun and back away? I don't think it'd go well...especially if you fired at the guys trying to make you get on the plane.



My 2 cents. I feel for the guy and he might not have deserved death but clearly he shouldn't have drawn the sword.

[Dragosunsoar]

why so worried you survived it didn't you to bad for the others

[KnightofPhoenix]

Eh, I wouldn't want to be in a world where the only defense against mass extermination are people who feel too sad when a deserter is killed.

[Tankenminnet]

 I was really surprised aswell, it did seem a bit overkill.

[Myzzrimm]

Suron wrote...

Myzzrimm wrote...

In the past, recruits have managed to kill senior grey wardens because they didn't want to drink this "deadly cocktail". Thus it was passed to take no chances. Furthermore, Jory struck first.

did you watch the cutscene?  Jory did nothing of the sort..sure he drew his weapon but he did NOT even move forward towards Duncan until Duncan came at him with his dagger..

Jory was the one acting in self defense..not Duncan.  Liking Duncan's beard doesn't change FACTS about the whole cutscene...don't be blind.  Again. Jory did nothing of the sort.

Well that was certainly rude. Have *YOU* watched the cutscene? If anything, Duncan would have force fed him the blood, using the dagger only as a means to an end. Jory SWUNG FIRST. Duncan parried, and reposte. 

[MFCell]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

Also it is better for people not to know what they will have to do. Otherwise they are going to worry about it for weeks beforehand. Rather than focusing on the present tasks. And you may have last minute deserters the night before the ritual.

I just wanted to point out that the Harrowing has much in common with the Joining, and not only is it said one person threw up for a week straight before his Haorrowing, also, Jowan is a classic example of someone doing everything they can to escape the grasp of thier teachers/detainees for freedom.  Of course, he is trying to avoid tranquilization, but the fact remains he causes major trouble trying to avoid a fate set to him by a larger Order, in the name of his "free will" and his "love for Lily"... much like Jorys last minute decision to impose his will to be a father and not a Warden, and his love for his wife.

Modifié par MFCell, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:19 .

[Dragosunsoar]

there was another deserter in ostagar who was sentanced to death jory's no diffrent he just didn't get bread and water before he died

[MFCell]

Flaming people over your opinion of the minor dynamics of a cutscene with no relevance to the overall game is not what the boards are here for.



Even if you completely disagree with Myzzrimm, and Myrrzimm is wrong about everything they type, it doesnt change the fact they they feel that way, and they are entitled to feel that way, and they are entitled to come on these boards and tell us how they feel about this game, without being demeaned by comments like "did you watch the cutscene" and "are you blind" ...