384 réponses à ce sujet

[Nosuchluck]

I think people are missing out on something. Grey Warden's job is to be utterly committed to being a Grey Warden. No matter what you are expected to throw down your life to defend the country against the blight without asking questions. Every Grey Warden should eventually be prepared to sacrifice his life to destroy the ArchDemon. If you aren't willing to risk death then they aren't Grey Warden material. Duncan doesn't want some guy freaking out when they're about to fight the Archdemon because he's worried about his wife and kids.



If normal people found out that the Warden's were tainted by the Archdemon they'd probably consider them no better than the blight and try to kill them, because I'm guessing for the average person anything blight infected = evil and must be destroyed. If he let Jory go off and tell about his experience everyone would know for certain what it was about rather than it just being rumours.



You've also got to go under the assumption that If Duncan let Jory go the other Grey Warden's might get the idea they could run off too.

[The Angry One]

I find it hilarious how people say "Jory drew his sword but made no threatening moves".

Last I heard, drawing your weapon IS A THREATENING MOVE.



Try pulling a gun on a cop and see how long you live.

[Pheace]

I lived happily ever after as Prince-regent of Ferelden, screw the blight and your 'throw down your life' attitude xD

[Dragosunsoar]

The Angry One wrote...

I find it hilarious how people say "Jory drew his sword but made no threatening moves".
Last I heard, drawing your weapon IS A THREATENING MOVE.

Try pulling a gun on a cop and see how long you live.

good point jory sighned his own death warrent

[Chris_Really_Rocks]

I don't see what the point is to analyze this from a legal perspective. the common law, the civil law, canon law and islamic law: none of them apply to the Grey Wardens. They can legally use lethal force to compel conscripts to submit to the joining. Period. If you want to debate it from a moral perspective, that's one thing. Trying to use real world legal concepts to analyze the legality of actions taken in a fantasy world is preposterous.

[Vinditater]

"Jory swung first".



New T-Shirt to overtake the Star Wars Han Shot First nonsense. Will order one whenever someone makes them. =)

[Obliterati]

So, I guess if you ignore that Jory was trying to run away and Duncan attacked him...



And if you ignore that Anora and Loghain and the entire Landsmeet and Wynne and Irving and Zathrian and the mages that make the Joining cocktail and the Templars that presumably watch over the mages as they make the joining cocktail and the keeper from the Dalish origin (whatever her name was) and the elder dude from the Alienage origin (whatever his name was) and that random Tevinter slaver-mage guy and half the Dwarves in Orzammar and a whole boatload of other people you meet already know quite a bit about the Joining...



And if you ignore that they performed this supposedly secret ritual right there in full view of the entire army camp (couldn't they have found a tent to use, or something? "Hey everybody, don't mind us, we're just gonna perform this secret blood-magic ritual right over there, we'll try not to summon a demon on your ass or anything, ha ha!")...



Then yes, Duncan's actions make a lot of sense.



Ah well, even the best story roads have a few plot-holes. Still, it would have been a lot easier to just make Jory attack Duncan...

[Vinditater]

"Jory swung first" to overtake "Han shot first" t-shirts. Im waiting for someone to make them so I can order a billion of them.

[Lianaar]

They Grey Wardens is an organisation that was called forth by desperation. It was you do this or the world ceased to exists. It was a necessity. The only way to survive. And they were good, damn good at what they did. They didn't get good by being weak hearted. They couldn't -afford- mistakes. Because the only alternative to victory is end of the world.



They are legendary creatures who are willing to sacrifice everything. Everything. If you can not do that, you shouldn't join them. My chars were told: there is no turning back. Your past is past, is no more. Your family is that of the Grey Wardens. Later on, after the joining it was made clearer that there is a brotherhood that must have the members be able to rely on the others willing to make the sacrifice.



If someone is not willing to leave the past and die for the saving of the world, then someone is not a Grey Warden. Failure is death.



I was not surprised by the scene. I found it fitting. It wasn't peace. The stake was not: oh, do we have dinner together on the social tomorrow? The stake was: when I -need- you to back me up, even if an archdemon is chewing on your leg, will you be there, and buy me the time with your death so I can kill the archdemon and save the world, or will you run off to your mom's/wife's skirt hoping someone else will do it.



As Wynne said: there won't be anyone else to do it. It was not self defense. Jory wanted to be a Warden and didn't want to pay the price. He deserted. He got punished. As far as I know deserting was for a very long time punished by death. In some countries still is.

[MFCell]

Chris_Really_Rocks wrote...

I don't see what the point is to analyze this from a legal perspective. the common law, the civil law, canon law and islamic law: none of them apply to the Grey Wardens. They can legally use lethal force to compel conscripts to submit to the joining. Period. If you want to debate it from a moral perspective, that's one thing. Trying to use real world legal concepts to analyze the legality of actions taken in a fantasy world is preposterous.

Especially when the things at debate, the reason he was killed and the legal consequences Duncan does or does not face, are quite clearly explained in the game.

He killed him because he knew the secrets of the Joining, and was trying to back out to late.  Gray Wardens are exempt from most laws, the proof being that when the PC is recruited as a city-elf, the PCs crime are pardoned at the moment when you became a Gray Warden.  You just murdered the son of the Arl of Denerim, and you walk off scott free, after being face to face with arrest.  Tell me, how is Duncan supposed to be worried about his "crime" in this case?

He simply harbors regret at having to kill him, but the cause of death is wholely Jory's creation.  There was never a time when Duncan was legally or morally at risk with his actions.

[Kingrames]

Jory drew his weapon first. Duncan knew that Jory would kill him to get away and tell the secret of the joining, guaranteeing that no more would ever join the Grey Wardens. Drinking the blood of darkspawn? Why, if word got out about that, Grey wardens would be labeled heretics, demon-worsippers, and monsters, and traitors, and hunted down and killed. Oh, wait.



So Duncan did what he didn't want to do but knew he had to do. He killed Jory, casually parrying Jory's sad attempt to fight him off. I don't think even Jory felt bad about his death. He was only concerned about his family. And he knew he wasn't up to snuff.

[Lianaar]

Also, who said Wardens are saints? Heck no, they are there to do the dirty job others are too picky about. They are cleaning up the mess that is too chaotic and dark for others. They will kill everyone in a village if they think the people are tainted. They are making sacrifices in order to get to the goal. For them the goal is way more important then the means. I think the real good thing about Duncan is that he isn't a saint. He is a human. I don't believe he enjoyed killing. I don't believe he enjoyed forcing people into the state he did. But he believed with all his heart that it is necessary. And in a way, he was right. It -was- necessary.

[Dragosunsoar]

even if you don't like duncans decision don't forget he dies to! i like duncan so that was sad

[Dragosunsoar]

besides there grey warrdens not black and white warrdens

[gotthammer]

I don't see anything 'wrong' w/ Jory's death. Especially since the game is supposed to be 'dark fantasy'. Heck, I'd say he got off easy by just getting stabbed.

If the game were 'darker', his corpse (and that of Daveth's) could have probably been used to augment the ritual or something...



It does kinda highlight the problems w/ secretive organizations tho': more secrets = more chance for something to go awry when those not party to the secrets become involved (e.g., new recruits or external manipulators like Loghain), esp. if the secrets are rather 'grave'.

[kesayo2]

I don't understand what the big deal is.

The wardens aren't supposed to be law abiding good citizens. They are killers who use whatever means necessary to fight the darkspawn. And that includes killing cowards who might go around telling people that "the joining" is basically like being forced to drink poison that has a high chance of causing instant death.

Ducan murdered Jory to prevent the secret from getting out. Yes, everyone knows that the joining may be fatal. But they don't know why. Most people probably guess that it's a test of abililty, so if you are strong enough or skilled enough you will live. So people who think they are strong, might be willing to risk it. But in actuality, it's pretty random. You basically don't have a fighting chance, which will scare many more people away. More people will come to a gun fight than will come to a game of russian roulette.

[Dragosunsoar]

i think jorys wife secretly wanted a divorce and paid duncun to take him and get rid of him

[draction]

Here’s a section for the current US UCMJ

Article 85—Desertion

© Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to
desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death
or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or
attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than
death, as a court-martial may direct.”

Little silly I know quoting real life military law in regards to a fantasy game but there you have it.

[GoldenusG]

By all means, kill him off, but the 'Join, No, Die' method used is too jarring for me. No effort was put in to persuade him. And that is what bugged me.

[The Angry One]

Still, military law throughout history and in most fiction is similar. Desertion is one of the few crimes that commonly warrants summary execution in most cultures, along with high treason.

[The Angry One]

GoldenusG wrote...

By all means, kill him off, but the 'Join, No, Die' method used is too jarring for me. No effort was put in to persuade him. And that is what bugged me.

If you have to persuade him, I'd wager he's as good as dead anyway.
It seems to me that the Joining requires some degree of mental preparedness, and even then those who are "ready" like Daveth can still die.
Even if there were not so, again there's that codex entry about the panicked recruit who killed a Grey Warden master during a ritual. Why should Duncan take any chances? He has a Blight to quash.

[MFCell]

The Angry One wrote...

high treason.

Which is essentially the risk you run with someone opening the floodgate on the secrets of the Joining.

So Jory was not only deserting, but setting himself up to betray important secrets.

Duncan simply could not allow this to happen.

[AtreiyaN7]

Well, I'm on my second playthrough and paid special attention to that scene because of all the back & forth about it. From what I saw, Jory drew first, and then Duncan rather drew his own blade. Jory was the one who took a swing first, so I think it was justifiable. Ultimately, Daveth showed more guts than Ser Jory when it came down to the Joining. Sure, Ser Jory was brave about STANDARD, conventional fighting. However, as you go through the Wilds and your group finally faces the darkspawn, it's then that he seems to start losing his nerve. There was some conversation at one point after you meet the dying soldier & bandage him up that leads me to believe that. I think it was at the Joining that he finally snapped after seeing what happened to Daveth.

** Ack, how did "Wilds" get messed up like that - editing to fix.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 22 novembre 2009 - 08:14 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

Jory drew first.. AND attacked first.



How ridiculous is it of people to say "OMG DUNCAN DREW HIS KNIFE"..



WTF? Someone pulls a huge sword on you and you're NOT acting in self defence if you pull out a KNIFE?



So: Jory was deserting, there was a high chance he'd become guilty of treason, he drew his weapon on his superiors, he attacked his superior...



There's enough reason for 4 death penalties right there...

[Saurel]

Deviija wrote...


What purpose was Jory's death? 

To have an edgy 24-esque death in the game....

Yup I think thats the reason it was included